Shooter: It’s beginning to look like Mark Coyle made the right hire in PJ Fleck

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short ornery norwegian said:
Bass, settle down. You have every right to your point of view. But I have every right to a different point of view. That does not make me a "loser" - it just means I see things differently.

I agree that, if everything breaks right, the Gophers COULD win the West. But, in my heart of hearts, I just don't believe - or expect - that everything is going to break right. I might be wrong. Or you might be wrong.

Are we really going to go back to the stupid argument about who is a "better" fan?
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I"m not claiming to be a better fan than G4L. I'm just saying he has a loser mentality. And like I said before i can't blame him, MN sports fans have been beat into the ground season after season for my entire life. Why should we have expectations to win anything ever? I think Fleck has/is changing that culture and that thought. I use to be a loser too, but now i'm more optimistic and I fully expect this team to compete in and win the west this year. There is no reason we can't and I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation. It's not like I'm saying I expect them to win the natty or bust. I'm not even saying win the B1G championship. I just expect them to be able to win their division. I don't see any of the West teams as significantly better than the others and 6-3 in the conference may just win the west. That's nothing special. I'm not saying I expect them to be 11-1 or I'll be mad.
 

Gophers_4life said:
That's what you want.

You can't expect it unless you have a logical, rational basis to back it up. Otherwise, it becomes an unreasonable expectation, in my book.
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No no no. Again, you don’t understand what an expectation is. I absolutely expect them to win 9. Logic: schedule, talent, year 3.

I want them to win the B1G West. I think they can, but don’t expect it. Follow along please.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

I have a strong belief that the Gophers will win at least 9 games in the near future (this season) and achieve a number of wins we haven't seen since 2016.
 

bottlebass said:
Yes, absolutely, 100%. And notice I didn't say win, I just said be in the B1G championship game. And there is a major difference between that mentality and an Alabama mentality of NCAA championship win or bust so not sure why you would even bring that up.

You are a loser, you have a loser mentality and that is OK with you. You are happy with being mediocre, I am not.
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I might be a loser in your eyes but at least I am not a prick.

You can call the mentality of being willing to accept less then a division championship this year whatever you want but it isn't a loser mentality. A loser mentality would be thinking the team can never compete for championships and that we should all just be happy to win 8 games or so every year because that is the best we can hope for.

I have been one of the most vocal supporters of Fleck since he got here and I think he is going to do some great things. If things break right it could happen as early as this year but right now the West is a cluster of good teams and I don't think we are at a point where we can go into the season expecting to win the division yet.

Of course the team's goal is to win the division and the conference, as fans that is something we all want to see happen as well, but if in year 3 they show signs of improvement but ultimately fall short of the division title it is not a loser mentality to say that could be an acceptable outcome to the season.

If we keep building the way we have been we will quickly be in the Big Ten West title or Bust mindset but this is not the year to start thinking that way. If that makes me a loser in the eyes of a message board troll, so be it.
 

Wisconsin lost a ton off their offense and are breaking in new QBs. Their defense was average last year - will they return to form in 2019?
Nebraska is still in a rebuilding mode but has the most talent on paper. The question isn’t whether they will improve under Frost but how quickly.
Purdue lost a ton as well including a clutch senior QB. They return a lot on defense but will they be any good?
Northwestern is going to be anywhere from average to good, at least by the later part of the campaign. Sorry but Fitz has earned the benefit of the doubt.
Iowa lost their safety valve tight ends and some other bits but like Northwestern chances are will be average to really good.
Illinois...really no idea. They are in perpetual rebuilding mode and may never escape.

In total, the West has a lot of rebuilding or reloading going on and chances are this is the best time to take down Sconnie again, Purdue, maybe Iowa and Northwestern before their talent and rosters mature. I don’t think it’s going to get any easier on paper (in the near future) than THIS year. The way PJ has been talking I think he’s going to be aggressive this season and go for the gold so to speak.
 


Pompous Elitist said:
In total, the West has a lot of rebuilding or reloading going on and chances are this is the best time to take down Sconnie again, Purdue, maybe Iowa and Northwestern before their talent and rosters mature. I don’t think it’s going to get any easier on paper (in the near future) than THIS year. The way PJ has been talking I think he’s going to be aggressive this season and go for the gold so to speak.
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Exactly. A very reasonable, logical analysis of the upcoming season. Well done.
 

MNVCGUY said:
I might be a loser in your eyes but at least I am not a prick.

You can call the mentality of being willing to accept less then a division championship this year whatever you want but it isn't a loser mentality. A loser mentality would be thinking the team can never compete for championships and that we should all just be happy to win 8 games or so every year because that is the best we can hope for.

I have been one of the most vocal supporters of Fleck since he got here and I think he is going to do some great things. If things break right it could happen as early as this year but right now the West is a cluster of good teams and I don't think we are at a point where we can go into the season expecting to win the division yet.

Of course the team's goal is to win the division and the conference, as fans that is something we all want to see happen as well, but if in year 3 they show signs of improvement but ultimately fall short of the division title it is not a loser mentality to say that could be an acceptable outcome to the season.

If we keep building the way we have been we will quickly be in the Big Ten West title or Bust mindset but this is not the year to start thinking that way. If that makes me a loser in the eyes of a message board troll, so be it.
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^^^Loser mentality^^^
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Wisconsin lost a ton off their offense and are breaking in new QBs. Their defense was average last year - will they return to form in 2019?
Nebraska is still in a rebuilding mode but has the most talent on paper. The question isn’t whether they will improve under Frost but how quickly.
Purdue lost a ton as well including a clutch senior QB. They return a lot on defense but will they be any good?
Northwestern is going to be anywhere from average to good, at least by the later part of the campaign. Sorry but Fitz has earned the benefit of the doubt.
Iowa lost their safety valve tight ends and some other bits but like Northwestern chances are will be average to really good.
Illinois...really no idea. They are in perpetual rebuilding mode and may never escape.

In total, the West has a lot of rebuilding or reloading going on and chances are this is the best time to take down Sconnie again, Purdue, maybe Iowa and Northwestern before their talent and rosters mature. I don’t think it’s going to get any easier on paper (in the near future) than THIS year. The way PJ has been talking I think he’s going to be aggressive this season and go for the gold so to speak.
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Add in our crossover games to the reasons this year should be the year.
 





Spoofin said:
No no no. Again, you don’t understand what an expectation is. I absolutely expect them to win 9. Logic: schedule, talent, year 3.

I want them to win the B1G West. I think they can, but don’t expect it. Follow along please.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Very reasonable and logical. I'll add returning a majority of starters and the Robb Smith experiment, which cost Gophs at least two wins in 2018.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Wisconsin lost a ton off their offense and are breaking in new QBs. Their defense was average last year - will they return to form in 2019?
Nebraska is still in a rebuilding mode but has the most talent on paper. The question isn’t whether they will improve under Frost but how quickly.
Purdue lost a ton as well including a clutch senior QB. They return a lot on defense but will they be any good?
Northwestern is going to be anywhere from average to good, at least by the later part of the campaign. Sorry but Fitz has earned the benefit of the doubt.
Iowa lost their safety valve tight ends and some other bits but like Northwestern chances are will be average to really good.
Illinois...really no idea. They are in perpetual rebuilding mode and may never escape.

In total, the West has a lot of rebuilding or reloading going on and chances are this is the best time to take down Sconnie again, Purdue, maybe Iowa and Northwestern before their talent and rosters mature. I don’t think it’s going to get any easier on paper (in the near future) than THIS year. The way PJ has been talking I think he’s going to be aggressive this season and go for the gold so to speak.
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2016 and then 2019 were/are the two I had circled going back to 2014/15 as Gophs most favorable future seasons on paper. Mich, MSU and BYU next year plus five road B1G games in 2020 will be a big test for Fleck & Co.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
I don’t think it’s going to get any easier on paper (in the near future) than THIS year.
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bottlebass said:
Add in our crossover games to the reasons this year should be the year.
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But you can’t take full advantage of an easy schedule unless your team is ready to do that.

I have little doubt that Fleck’s culture and systems are fully ingrained and installed. And he’s got play callers that’s I think can call the right plays. The last ingredient is the talent. That’s where we’re still only on year three, and it usually takes four years. Unless you bring in a bunch of JUCO’s, which he didn’t (which I agree with).
 




It comes down to this: if you were told that you’d lose your job, home, and all savings/retirement accounts if you guessed the wrong number of regular season wins, right now, given three options of <=5, 6-8, >=9 ... 100% of people would actually guess 6-8.

I say, the only people barking about 9 or more or else the season is a disappointment, Fleck and the team are losers, blah, blah, blah .... are folks with nothing to lose if they’re wrong.
 

Gophers_4life said:
But you can’t take full advantage of an easy schedule unless your team is ready to do that.

I have little doubt that Fleck’s culture and systems are fully ingrained and installed. And he’s got play callers that’s I think can call the right plays. The last ingredient is the talent. That’s where we’re still only on year three, and it usually takes four years. Unless you bring in a bunch of JUCO’s, which he didn’t (which I agree with).
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Only in Year 2. ... 2017 was Year Zero.
 

Gophers_4life said:
It comes down to this: if you were told that you’d lose your job, home, and all savings/retirement accounts if you guessed the wrong number of regular season wins, right now, given three options of <=5, 6-8, >=9 ... 100% of people would actually guess 6-8.

I say, the only people barking about 9 or more or else the season is a disappointment, Fleck and the team are losers, blah, blah, blah .... are folks with nothing to lose if they’re wrong.
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Can you even read? I said fleck would call you a loser and say you have a loser mentality for having such low expectations. No one has called Fleck a loser or the team losers.
 

bottlebass said:
No one has called Fleck a loser or the team losers.
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You said he was a loser if he doesn’t win 9 regular season games.

But you have no skin in the game. So your pronouncements aren’t worth anything, since you won’t risk anything.
 

Gophers_4life said:
But you can’t take full advantage of an easy schedule unless your team is ready to do that.

I have little doubt that Fleck’s culture and systems are fully ingrained and installed. And he’s got play callers that’s I think can call the right plays. The last ingredient is the talent. That’s where we’re still only on year three, and it usually takes four years. Unless you bring in a bunch of JUCO’s, which he didn’t (which I agree with).
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They are, and were last year.

Absolutely have the talent and experience to win 9 or more regular season this year.
 

Gophers_4life said:
It comes down to this: if you were told that you’d lose your job, home, and all savings/retirement accounts if you guessed the wrong number of regular season wins, right now, given three options of <=5, 6-8, >=9 ... 100% of people would actually guess 6-8.

I say, the only people barking about 9 or more or else the season is a disappointment, Fleck and the team are losers, blah, blah, blah .... are folks with nothing to lose if they’re wrong.
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That's a completely unrealistic and ridiculous and scenario.
 

PMWinSTP said:
They are, and were last year.

Absolutely have the talent and experience to win 9 or more regular season this year.
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Sure, any team can win any number of games in the regular season.

You won’t quantify your guess with a likelihood, and even if you do you aren’t willing to risk anything of significance to back it up.

Just taking a wild guess, like me.
 

PMWinSTP said:
That's a completely unrealistic and ridiculous and scenario.
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It’s just an elaboration of the fact that you risk nothing with your guess and aren’t willing to, yet you pretend like you’ve got some objective truth in your hands that anyone can take to the bank.
 

bottlebass said:
I"m not claiming to be a better fan than G4L. I'm just saying he has a loser mentality. And like I said before i can't blame him, MN sports fans have been beat into the ground season after season for my entire life. Why should we have expectations to win anything ever? I think Fleck has/is changing that culture and that thought. I use to be a loser too, but now i'm more optimistic and I fully expect this team to compete in and win the west this year. There is no reason we can't and I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation. It's not like I'm saying I expect them to win the natty or bust. I'm not even saying win the B1G championship. I just expect them to be able to win their division. I don't see any of the West teams as significantly better than the others and 6-3 in the conference may just win the west. That's nothing special. I'm not saying I expect them to be 11-1 or I'll be mad.
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I am envisioning a new 12-step program - Losers Anonymous, for recovering losers.

"Hi, I'm Bass, and I used to be a loser."

(everyone) "Hi Bass."

Step one - "We came to believe that we were losers....."
 

Gophers_4life said:
You said he was a loser if he doesn’t win 9 regular season games.

But you have no skin in the game. So your pronouncements aren’t worth anything, since you won’t risk anything.
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No I didn't. And again what does putting money on it have to do with expectations? Nothing.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I am envisioning a new 12-step program - Losers Anonymous, for recovering losers.

"Hi, I'm Bass, and I used to be a loser."

(everyone) "Hi Bass."

Step one - "We came to believe that we were losers....."
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Hopefully Fleck changes a lot of the losers minds around here.
 

bottlebass said:
And again what does putting money on it have to do with expectations?
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If you really expected it, you’d be willing to risk something. So likely means you’re probably just making it up, to argue for he sake of arguing.
 

Gophers_4life said:
If you really expected it, you’d be willing to risk something. So likely means you’re probably just making it up, to argue for he sake of arguing.
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No, because any number of injuries could happen, scandals could happen, etc. Right now my expectation is they should make the B1G championship game. This really isn't hard to comprehend.
 

bottlebass said:
No, because any number of injuries could happen, scandals could happen, etc.
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Everyone already understands that we’re only talking about preseason predictions. That was always the point.

bottlebass said:
Right now my expectation is they should make the B1G championship game.
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You don’t really believe that, or you’d be willing to risk something to prove it. Not money, anything. Board time, etc.
 

Gophers_4life said:
It comes down to this: if you were told that you’d lose your job, home, and all savings/retirement accounts if you guessed the wrong number of regular season wins, right now, given three options of <=5, 6-8, >=9 ... 100% of people would actually guess 6-8.

I say, the only people barking about 9 or more or else the season is a disappointment, Fleck and the team are losers, blah, blah, blah .... are folks with nothing to lose if they’re wrong.
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I’d frame this a different way and ask how much would one be willing to bet the team will win 8+ regular season games. Would you be willing to bet 1k, 10k, 100k if the payoff is ten times that? Two times? A trip for two to Lake Tahoe? Not many people would ever feel comfortable betting their job, retirement savings or pension, Millenium Falcon etc on any wager because that would be incredibly idiotic (unless you need to make the Kessel run) although I see your point. It’s not really a fair question.
 

It doesn’t have to be the ridiculous scenario I proposed.

But just seems like everyone who is on the high side is willing to puff out their chests ... until they’re asked to risk something to back up their supposed fervent belief.


I just don’t see anything wrong with backing off to a much more reasonable position: 9+ gets you excited and is what you want, but 7-8 is the expected value (expectation).
 

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