off season "what if" topic - Coaches

Schnauzer

Pretty Sure You are Wrong
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This won't be the first thread to compare Gopher coaches and the long arguments about Mason, and now Kill vs Fleck are things of legend. But, I can't help but wonder about a few things:

Mason: What if the team holds on to beat Michigan in '03 and/or what happens if he was allowed to hang on through the building of the new stadium?

Brewster: Actually, I have no "what ifs" for Brewster as I think his program was headed to the same place regardless. But, if I have to say one, it would be: What if the Gophers had held on to beat Northwestern in '08?

Kill: I feel like people are beginning to change history on the Kill/Claeys era and discount his accomplishments. Unfortunately Kill himself has made this easier to do with his petty grudges. There was a lot of room to improve on offense but the defense was a lot of fun to watch, and I appreciate the methodical way the entire team improved from the depths of the Brewster years. People rip on the recruiting but the class that is reaching senior redshirt Junior age now is very interesting. What if Kill would have not had health issues and was able to continue to build on the program he had stabilized? With Kill still at the helm and with Claeys still the d coordinator, would that Michigan home game ended differently? Would the 9-4 season have been even better considering the close loss at Nebraska? Would the sex assault situation have even happened with Kill still at the helm?

Of course nobody knows the answer to any of these questions as they are pure speculation. But for me, it is interesting to contemplate, none-the-less.
 

My thoughts.

Mason: I always thought Mason was treated poorly at the time of his dismissal. He brought the Gophers out of the dark ages and back to playing in bowl games, heck he had wins over OhSt and Michigan. Up until this past season he had the last victory over Wisconsin. His 4th quarter collapses were incredibly frustrating, no doubt, but most of those occurred against teams with superior talent. Mason’s fatal flaw was that he wasn’t continuing to elevate the level of talent on his roster, he was stagnant in that area. Without being able to increase the talent level, he had pretty much hit a ceiling. I understand why the AD wanted more, but I felt they could have been more graceful and appreciative of his contributions.

Brewster: what does an AD do to replace a coach you let go because he hit his recruiting ceiling? You hire the best recruiter you can find, and that was and still is Tim Brewster. The big problem is you also need someone who can coach, and that was not and is still not Tim Brewster. His on the field disappointments so undermine the reputation of the program that not even his legendary recruiting skills could overcome.

Kill: He was good. He was a system guy, he focused the players on executing a relatively simple system which minimized their mistakes. His system was unique enough that he didn’t have to compete with “bigger named” programs for many of the skill sets he needed. In the end, however, I think he would have run into the same ceiling that Mason did.

Fleck: He is an odd duck and fun to watch. He is youthful with seemingly boundless energy. It appears the players buy into him. Because of these traits, I don’t think he will be limited by his ability to recruit. While I think he has already demonstrated that he is a better coach than Brewster (not a high bar), I still question whether his experience has prepared him to go against a Jim Harbaugh, Mark Dantonio. Even a Jeff Brohm or Pat Fitzgerald (to mention someone in the east). Anyway, only time will tell with Fleck and he makes it interesting to watch in the meantime.
 

I really think if the Gophers had beaten Michigan in 2003, that we would have gone to the Rose Bowl and Mason would have ultimately gotten the Ohio State job when offered later. So either way he wouldn't have made it to the TCF Bank Stadium opening.

I don't think much changes with Kill, though if we win that Michigan game, I think Claeys wouldn't have been fired, with or without the scandal.
 

What if Jerry:

I think the success of 14 and the following strange year that was 15 strongly hinted that Kill and Co. had plateaued. I would have liked to see it through with Jerry, but I'm really not sure anything changes even if he stays as far as the team going any father than it had.

Jerry was hanging onto Limegrover like grim death, the game vs Kent St. was an offensive abomination. Like so many Kill teams the team was far better than when they came, and they could hang in with good teams here and there, but offensively they just curled up into a fetal position of RUTM and couldn't get out of it... and to some extent I felt Jerry and Limegrover were ok with that / or unable to do much about it.
 

If Kill were still here, Mitch Leidner would be suiting up for an unprecedented 7th season under center.
 



Mason - I refuse to discuss to think about or discuss that game.
Brewster - What if he had hired the right OC at the very beginning and that OC would have stayed around. I think it still would have ended in a dumpster fire because he wasn't particularly savvy with roster formation, spreading out positions by classes, etc. However, one of Brew's largest failures was in having to run a new offense out there every year. Maybe he lasts another couple years if he had a little stability?
Kill - What if he didn't get sick? I don't mean it in a callous way, but this has to be his biggest "what if".
 

Mason - Didn't have the greatest relationship with high school coaches. Recruiting was tough.
Brewster - Was all over the board as to his coaches and question if he really qualifies as a head coach.
Kill - I really liked this guy as a human being. Not happy however with his recent comments (month or two or so ago). However I really question if he would get us to the next level. No one else wanted to come here and clean up a horrible mess that we had, so grateful for what he did.
Fleck - I like him. Don't like his field spurts after the quarter etc. I'm thinking its a time for his players to begin to rest etc. What he preaches however I really believe is good for his players. They need to be thinking about post college etc., Fleck will do a good job preparing them for that. As to a football coach, too early to judge. Players seem to really like him and that's what counts.
 

Mason-I think he had run his course. He was a bit a smug (understatement) I think rubbed fans the wrong way. I don't think letting him go was wrong but when you're replacement is

Brewster-Ye gads, he set the program back. I don't think there is any hope for him to be successful HC and why he remains position coach/recruiter

Kill: I think Kill would've ran into same challenges as Mason, but he got stability back. I had lot of fun storming TCF after wins vs Neb and Iowa. His offense was frustrating, but that was part of complimentary football we ran. There was a game vs PSU where 0 points were scored in 2nd half, but it was still entertaining. Both teams key drives and stops that always fizzled at midfield. Kill was content to keep pinning PSU deep. But go back and watch some of those offenses, it was JV level with passing, from route concepts to accuracy. I loved Mitch, but man he wasn't very accurate. I think if he didn't have the health problems, he'd still be here with MN hovering between 6-9 on an annual basis. New facilities maybe give a slight recruiting boost?!?

Claeys-I just don't think he's a HC. I think he's a good DC forced into HC role and only got that due to interim AD. I wish him well and if he proves me wrong down road, I'll be happy to admit I was wrong.

Fleck-TBD. I think we'll know a lot after year 3. Team turned corner at season end, now can they keep momentum going
 



What if...
... Maturi had supported Brewster and thus his assistance coaches stuck around for another year versus leaving at the first chance. Brewster could recruit, and with good assistants that actually stuck around (e.g., Ted Roof left after one year) events could have turned out a lot different.
 

Mason: Hit his ceiling. 10 years. He did well, but it wasn’t going to magically get much better/higher after 10 years.

Brewster: Overrated as a recruiter unless rankings are more important than enrolling, fitting, contributing, and performing. Good Riddance.

Kill: Better than the previous two. Had a plan and stuck to it like a champ. Not sure how anyone could be certain he hit his ceiling? Who knows what could have been?

Claeys: Awesome D-Coordinator. Successful in only year as HC. Had the guts to fire Limey. May or may not have been able to learn the ropes needed to be a HC? Who knows what could have been. Tough to survive the recruit being involved in the scandal. Likely shouldn’t have survived that.

Fleck: Different Cat. Not for everyone, but is as disciplined as Kill in regards to having a plan and sticking to it. A better recruiter than any listed and most likely has the highest ceiling. I don’t see him being a big target for helmet schools (too much ‘other stuff’) and so we likely get to see this one run it’s full course.


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With Mason, to some extent, I think that staff had run its course. they established a certain level of respectability, but never went beyond that level.

brewster -as noted, he needed to surround himself with a really strong staff - but 1st, he needed to have a vision for what type of team he wanted to have, and that, I think, was his biggest issue. his teams never had an identity.

Kill - If Kill had been 100% healthy, I think we would be talking about another Mason-type situation - a program that consistently won 7 or 8 games, with a rare 9 or 10-win season, but not reaching that mythical 'next level.' As to whether 'the incident' would have happened under Kill, no one can answer that.

Fleck - too soon to tell. There seems to be positive movement in terms of recruiting. I was hoping for a little more wide-open offense, but that does not seem to be Fleck's style. Still going to be run-oriented. So, could come down to QB play. Can Fleck bring in a QB who is better than a replacement-level player? that is the real question.
 

Mason:

Brewster: Overrated as a recruiter unless rankings are more important than enrolling, fitting, contributing, and performing. Good Riddance.

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Your totally wrong. Brewster's recruiting ability is legendary and second to none. That being said, being a good recruiter doesn't translate to being a good head coach. He was a horrible head coach and hiring him for that job set the program back.
 



Your totally wrong. Brewster's recruiting ability is legendary and second to none. That being said, being a good recruiter doesn't translate to being a good head coach. He was a horrible head coach and hiring him for that job set the program back.

His recruiting here was nothing special. His rankings were good - that is all.


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His recruiting here was nothing special. His rankings were good - that is all.

No, you don't understand recruiting.

Let's put it this another way. He Just left Texas A&M where officially he was TE coach, but he was making a base salary of $475k/year. He has worked for Jimbo as the star recruiter since 2013. He is now officially a Tight End coach at UNC working for Mack Brown, but making more. He worked as star recruiter with Mack at UNC before Mack went to Texas.

First look at the success of those programs and the quality athletes they had on roster and how those rosters are doing/did in the NFL. Second you need to realize that TE coaches don't make that amount of coin, in fact only the best recruiters get paid in excess of $475k.

Based on his past successes and current market value, he clearly is a very special recruiter.
 
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Mason - if that fateful Friday night had ended differently, I wonder if he would have lasted any longer. Might have done a little bit better recruiting those next few years, but it didn't seem like he was really pushing that hard for recruits. And that game was one of how many collapses? I don't think the issues that led to those (lack of conditioning, overly conservative play calling when ahead, etc.) would have changed. I also wonder if he would have found a way to lose one of the other games they did win that year.

Brewster - what if Maturi hired a former head coach to be a mentor for him? To help him establish a system and stay with it. I've said it before, the issue wasn't so much that Brew switched coordinators, it's that he drastically changed systems, then didn't have players that fit the system. Maybe then he could have been successful, but with his ego, I doubt he would have listened.

Kill - I believe Kill would still be here, but would be on the hot seat had he stayed, assuming he was healthy. I just don't believe the offense ever would have improved enough to get over the hump.

Claeys - I believe he'd also be on the hot seat. I just don't think he could recruit well enough, and you can only "coach them up" so much. I think the team would have made a Bowl in 2017, missed last year, and be heading downward this year.

His recruiting here was nothing special. His rankings were good - that is all.


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No, you don't understand recruiting.

Let's put it this another way. He Just left Texas A&M where officially he was TE coach, but he was making a base salary of $475k/year. He has worked for Jimbo as the star recruiter since 2013. He is now officially a Tight End coach at UNC working for Mack Brown, but making more. He worked as star recruiter with Mack at UNC before Mack went to Texas.

First look at the success of those programs and the quality athletes they had on roster and how those rosters are doing/did in the NFL. Second you need to realize that TE coaches don't make that amount of coin, in fact only the best recruiters get paid in excess of $475k.

Based on his past successes and current market value, he clearly is a very special recruiter.

DE I don't think you understand Spoofin's point. He didn't say Brew wasn't a good recruiter - his recruiting here wasn't special because too many of his highly touted players ended up being busts or were run out of here due to academics/drugs/etc.
 
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DE I don't think you understand Spoofin's point. He didn't say Brew wasn't a good recruiter - his recruiting here wasn't special because too many of his highly touted players ended up being busts or were run out of here due to academics/drugs/etc.

I think you are right. My apologies to Spoofin. I missed that his comments were focused on his time at Minnesota.
 

I think you are right. My apologies to Spoofin. I missed that his comments were focused on his time at Minnesota.

No worries. You are right Brew is a very good recruiter - I only challenge the notion he was during his short tenure here.


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If we're looking for what ifs-

For Mason, it always goes back to that 2003 Michigan game. The blocked punt game would have added another win to the season and maybe push the team in a better bowl, but 2003 had more potential. What if Minnesota wins that game? Considering everything goes the same way, the Gophers win a conference title, earn a Rose Bowl berth, and give the program overall a big boost. It could certainly be a peak and Mason could return to 7-9 win seasons in the following years, with an eventual exit. But the program would be in a different position.

Maybe a slight "what if" with Mason is also what happens if the 06 team wins vs Texas Tech in the bowl game? Maybe Mason would have had a more graceful exit and a better hire is made?

That kind of leads into Brewster. Overall, he's a good recruiter and I can't really blame him for how things went, as I put that more on the hiring decision itself. He tried to make things work here, but wasn't head coaching material and it showed. The only what if I can think of is maybe winning the 09 Insight Bowl and building a bit more momentum for the next season, but I don't see 2010 turning out much different.

With Kill, it all goes back to his health. The program was rebuilt and given stability, but as other posters have brought up, the next step was really the question. After 2013 and 2014, things seemed to be going in a really good direction, and despite the loss, the team played the No. 2 team in the country really tough. But then there were those really close games against Ohio, Kent St and Colorado St that made me start thinking of how the future would go. While in good shape, the what if question is if Kill stayed healthy, what would the 2016 campaign have been like? That would have been Kill's best opportunity to show just how much he can build a program considering the schedule.

When it comes to Claeys, two what ifs come to mind from both seasons. 2015, what if he beats Michigan and 2016, what if the scandal is handled a different way? If those two things happen differently, perhaps he stays in the position, although he'd have even more expectations in 2017, meaning his seat would probably get hot if things didn't go well.

Really early for PJ Fleck. It's only been two seasons but maybe the what if for Fleck is how 2017 would have turned out if the team manages to win against Maryland and/or Purdue. The Gophers had some chances there, so, bowl eligibility is on the table and Fleck might have won some people over faster?
 

What if...
... Maturi had supported Brewster and thus his assistance coaches stuck around for another year versus leaving at the first chance. Brewster could recruit, and with good assistants that actually stuck around (e.g., Ted Roof left after one year) events could have turned out a lot different.

This really was the height of stupidity.

You hire a coach with zero coordinator experience and then nickle and dime the coordinator positions.

I don't think Brewster would have been successful, but we pretty much guaranteed his failure.
 

With Kill I felt we would reach Iowa's standard, a really competitive team every 5 years or so. That certainly would have been a plus over the program's past 50 year experience.

Mason, meh. Smart guy with some solid assistants.

Brewster, over matched. In every way possible.

Fleck. Too early but trending okay. This is a important year for the program under him. If they are competitive in every game then they are on the right track.
 

Mason - made the program respectable. The Michigan collapse and many can’t make it up ways to lose games are legendary. Was surprised when he was fired but it was probably time.

Brewster - was simply an awful hire.

Kill - a good solid football coach. If he had stuck around probably Mason like results overall. Disliked the recruiting philosophy. Under Kill highly unlikely a player like Bateman would be here.

Claeys - another solid football coach. Probably same results as Mason/Kill and same Kill like recruiting philosophy. Will be surprised if he’s offered another P5 HC job. He was given the HC job here because of Kill departure and kept the job because of an interim AD. He was never going to be the long term answer when Goetz didn’t get the AD job.

Fleck - TBD. I know he’s considered more of a CEO then a coach but probably a better football coach than he is given credit for. Prefer this recruiting philosophy over past regimes. Willing to go after higher profile recruits and and get into recruiting battles with other P5 schools for these players past regimes wouldn’t is refreshing.


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This really was the height of stupidity.

You hire a coach with zero coordinator experience and then nickle and dime the coordinator positions.

I don't think Brewster would have been successful, but we pretty much guaranteed his failure.

I agree. That and the timing of the hire pretty much equaled no chance.
 

I really think if the Gophers had beaten Michigan in 2003, that we would have gone to the Rose Bowl and Mason would have ultimately gotten the Ohio State job when offered later. So either way he wouldn't have made it to the TCF Bank Stadium opening.

I don't think much changes with Kill, though if we win that Michigan game, I think Claeys wouldn't have been fired, with or without the scandal.
That ship had sailed. Tressel was only installed, with a national title by then. I doubt Mason would've gotten job over Urban Meyer the next time it was open

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The only "what if" that currently matters is the what if everything that led to Fleck becoming coach at Minnesota never happened....specifically, the only reason Claeys was let go was indeed the player scandal, so if that never happens, Minnesota probably never wins the 2019 BIG West division and any other dreams you may have for the Fleck era......Go Gophers....There is only looking ahead
 

Lots of good takes on the previous coaches, found myself agreeing with most of the posts in this thread. My take:

Mason - Lost his fire and was ready to be done when it ended in 2006. Biggest what if with him would have been what would have happened if we had won that Texas Tech game. Would have been really hard for the administration to justify firing him even though they clearly wanted to leading up to that game.

Brewster - Biggest what if with him actually goes to Maturi, what if they had actual invested in the program and gotten an established coach to follow Mason? Brewster wasn't ready to be a head coach and never should have been put in that position. He has found his niche as a high level recruiter under strong head coaches. The administration went cheap and it set the program back big time.

Kill - Health will always be the big what if with Jerry but I do think the program would not have gotten much higher then where he had it before things went sough health wise for him. He couldn't recruit at the level to get the team over the top. We would always have been good under Kill and probably never great, similar to Mason but slightly better because we would have had a solid defense under Claeys.

Claeys - Not really worth speculating, he was a stop gap one year fill in while the administration transitioned. He is back doing what he was meant to do, being a top notch defensive coordinator. It is what he is really good at and it is what I bet he will do for the remainder of his coaching career.

Fleck - Too early to get into a lot of what ifs with him but there is one I haven't seen mentioned yet (might have missed it). What if he doesn't hire Rob Smith and gets someone that is better able to work with the talent on the roster like Rossi right from the beginning? Might not have made a massive difference but I definitely think we would have won a few more games over those first two years.

Of the coaches on this list Fleck has the highest ceiling, how high that ceiling is remains to be seen.
 

ol jer' is a ball coach. it's who he is, it's in his blood. if he had remained head coach he would have used this vehicle to help turn more boys into men. it's a missed opportunity for sure.
 

A different slant on the "What If"...

Brewster, to his credit, never said anything but positive comments about his time with the Gophers. He certainly could have pointed some very accurate arrows towards Maturi, but he didn't. Instead, he took the high road.

What if Kill had done the same? I think we'd be thinking of him quite a bit differently now. His shots at the school, the program, and Fleck (and Heather) didn't help anyone, especially him.
 

A different slant on the "What If"...

Brewster, to his credit, never said anything but positive comments about his time with the Gophers. He certainly could have pointed some very accurate arrows towards Maturi, but he didn't. Instead, he took the high road.

What if Kill had done the same? I think we'd be thinking of him quite a bit differently now. His shots at the school, the program, and Fleck (and Heather) didn't help anyone, especially him.

Yeah Brewster may have not been a good HC, but dude took the high road.

I'd be happy to have him back as a TE coach / crooter.... although he's pretty highly coveted at that role so it would be a tough get, but I'd be happy to see him.

Jerry I just feel bad for, made it to the P5, I suspect he regrets he resigned, gotta be rough.
 

A different slant on the "What If"...

Brewster, to his credit, never said anything but positive comments about his time with the Gophers. He certainly could have pointed some very accurate arrows towards Maturi, but he didn't. Instead, he took the high road.

What if Kill had done the same? I think we'd be thinking of him quite a bit differently now. His shots at the school, the program, and Fleck (and Heather) didn't help anyone, especially him.

Gotta agree with both points.


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