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  1. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpodoll68 View Post
    It is really strange how there is an assumption of guilt among so many who post on this board. It makes sense in the community that runs the EOAA, who assume a man is guilty anytime he does anything, but not among alleged fans of the football team. It's weird.
    Not strange at all. I have no idea if they were guilty of any criminal activity but the school found them in violation of the school code of conduct. No criminal charges does not make the EOAA a kangaroo court although I think there are a lot of improvements that can be made with that process. The bottom line is that there are folks on this board who seem to think that no charges completely exonerates the players. That is not true and stating that it is not true does not make me someone who presumes guilt. We simply don't know what happened and based on their investigation, the police and the county attorney did not charge anyone because they could not prove a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. The leap to "assumption of guilt" by some posters is a huge stretch. I think what many of them did was definitely against school code of conduct and deserving of their punishment based on a lot of what was revealed during the EOAA. I do not know if anything that happened could be classified as CSC. Stating that I do not know does not mean that I assume guilt. You don't know what happened but you presume innocence? Just because it couldn't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt? There is a lot of gray here... None of them are convicted criminals because they were not convicted of a crime. Good for them. Several of them were disciplined at varying levels by the U. I happen to believe that the U did a decent job with a flawed system. We can argue that all day. I do not presume guilt of any crime. I simply don't know and leave the door open that there could have been CSC that could not be proven.


  2. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by ComoGopher View Post
    Not strange at all. I have no idea if they were guilty of any criminal activity but the school found them in violation of the school code of conduct. No criminal charges does not make the EOAA a kangaroo court although I think there are a lot of improvements that can be made with that process. The bottom line is that there are folks on this board who seem to think that no charges completely exonerates the players. That is not true and stating that it is not true does not make me someone who presumes guilt. We simply don't know what happened and based on their investigation, the police and the county attorney did not charge anyone because they could not prove a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. The leap to "assumption of guilt" by some posters is a huge stretch. I think what many of them did was definitely against school code of conduct and deserving of their punishment based on a lot of what was revealed during the EOAA. I do not know if anything that happened could be classified as CSC. Stating that I do not know does not mean that I assume guilt. You don't know what happened but you presume innocence? Just because it couldn't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt? There is a lot of gray here... None of them are convicted criminals because they were not convicted of a crime. Good for them. Several of them were disciplined at varying levels by the U. I happen to believe that the U did a decent job with a flawed system. We can argue that all day. I do not presume guilt of any crime. I simply don't know and leave the door open that there could have been CSC that could not be proven.
    Your post nicely summarizes everything wrong with the joke of an EOAA process - not just at the U, but everywhere. Presumption of innocence is (or at least used to be) a bedrock of life in the United States. Any system that forces someone to prove their innocence is by definition a flawed system.

  3. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpodoll68 View Post
    Your post nicely summarizes everything wrong with the joke of an EOAA process - not just at the U, but everywhere. Presumption of innocence is (or at least used to be) a bedrock of life in the United States. Any system that forces someone to prove their innocence is by definition a flawed system.
    + 100. Summed up perfectly. Thanks DPO.


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  4. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpodoll68 View Post
    Your post nicely summarizes everything wrong with the joke of an EOAA process - not just at the U, but everywhere. Presumption of innocence is (or at least used to be) a bedrock of life in the United States. Any system that forces someone to prove their innocence is by definition a flawed system.
    It is a 51% system that starts at neutral. In reality, I think you are right and it is slanted against the males in a case like this. But honestly, the worst they can do is kick you out of school which can happen for plagiarizing a paper. As was already stated, don't do a threesome and invite your buddies. Just be happy with your threesome. If you are a buddy don't show up when you get the text. If you live by those rules you would be good in this case. How many members of the empire class just stayed home? Were they accused of anything. Worst possible punishment is getting kicked out of school. Nobody has a criminal record here. If they were not football players nobody would even care.

  5. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by rugger14 View Post
    Not at all. If they would have applied for warrants and analyzed the phone that should be in the report. The DA had nothing to look at because they didnt get the phone. Why is that hard to understand? If they did get the phone and have it forensically examined someone please correct me. I am not assuming anything, guilt or innocence, just stating that potentially a whole phone full of evidence existed and nobody looked at it. That is not a knock on MPD with their own procedures and policies. The point is that there was a whole lot of other potential evidence that was not even looked at.

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    I will never agree with your view of this situation. In fact, I think it is dangerous. With that said we have both stated we don’t know what happened so we have that common ground. I hope you enjoy a nice Holiday weekend.


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  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComoGopher View Post
    Not strange at all. I have no idea if they were guilty of any criminal activity but the school found them in violation of the school code of conduct. No criminal charges does not make the EOAA a kangaroo court although I think there are a lot of improvements that can be made with that process. The bottom line is that there are folks on this board who seem to think that no charges completely exonerates the players. That is not true and stating that it is not true does not make me someone who presumes guilt. We simply don't know what happened and based on their investigation, the police and the county attorney did not charge anyone because they could not prove a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. The leap to "assumption of guilt" by some posters is a huge stretch. I think what many of them did was definitely against school code of conduct and deserving of their punishment based on a lot of what was revealed during the EOAA. I do not know if anything that happened could be classified as CSC. Stating that I do not know does not mean that I assume guilt. You don't know what happened but you presume innocence? Just because it couldn't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt? There is a lot of gray here... None of them are convicted criminals because they were not convicted of a crime. Good for them. Several of them were disciplined at varying levels by the U. I happen to believe that the U did a decent job with a flawed system. We can argue that all day. I do not presume guilt of any crime. I simply don't know and leave the door open that there could have been CSC that could not be proven.
    Points well taken...
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  7. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by ComoGopher View Post
    It is a 51% system that starts at neutral. In reality, I think you are right and it is slanted against the males in a case like this. But honestly, the worst they can do is kick you out of school which can happen for plagiarizing a paper. As was already stated, don't do a threesome and invite your buddies. Just be happy with your threesome. If you are a buddy don't show up when you get the text. If you live by those rules you would be good in this case. How many members of the empire class just stayed home? Were they accused of anything. Worst possible punishment is getting kicked out of school. Nobody has a criminal record here. If they were not football players nobody would even care.
    Ever hired anyone? I do it as part of my job and have never hired anyone before doing a Google and social media search.

    As for your other question - there was at least one member of the team who stayed home and was still accused of terrible acts due to the color of his hair. Tough standards at the EOAA.


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  8. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoofin View Post
    I will never agree with your view of this situation. In fact, I think it is dangerous. With that said we have both stated we don’t know what happened so we have that common ground. I hope you enjoy a nice Holiday weekend.


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    I think if you knew what I do for a living and we could sit down and talk about it I could convince you that they should have seized the phone. My view is not dangerous. My view is from experience with multiple he said/she said cases where a phone was the key evidence in a case. If they seized it and examined it and got nothing my opinion could change. I don't think they examined the phone.

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  9. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by rugger14 View Post
    I think if you knew what I do for a living and we could sit down and talk about it I could convince you that they should have seized the phone. My view is not dangerous. My view is from experience with multiple he said/she said cases where a phone was the key evidence in a case. If they seized it and examined it and got nothing my opinion could change. I don't think they examined the phone.

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    So, all phones involved?

  10. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMWinSTP View Post
    So, all phones involved?
    Great question. The phone can lead to more phones. One warrant can lead to a dozen more warrants and a ton of work. Then in the end you might not be able to prove beyond a reaonable doubt even though you know they did it and they know they did it. Based on your caseload I can see just letting this one go because you have been there before and knew upfront this was a loser that you might work on for two months for nothing.

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  11. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by rugger14 View Post
    Great question. The phone can lead to more phones. One warrant can lead to a dozen more warrants and a ton of work. Then in the end you might not be able to prove beyond a reaonable doubt even though you know they did it and they know they did it. Based on your caseload I can see just letting this one go because you have been there before and knew upfront this was a loser that you might work on for two months for nothing.

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    Hers?

  12. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMWinSTP View Post
    Hers?
    Absolutely.

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  13. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by rugger14 View Post
    Absolutely.

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    Slippery slope. EOAA investigation was flawed and assumed guilt. Players were interviewed under the guise of being witnesses, which was disingenuous at the very least.

  14. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMWinSTP View Post
    Slippery slope. EOAA investigation was flawed and assumed guilt. Players were interviewed under the guise of being witnesses, which was disingenuous at the very least.
    You ask her for consent first. If she declines you write a warrant. Maybe you just write a warrant anyway.

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  15. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by ComoGopher View Post
    As was already stated, don't do a threesome and invite your buddies. Just be happy with your threesome. If you are a buddy don't show up when you get the text. If you live by those rules you would be good in this case.
    So threesomes aren't against the student code of conduct, but foursomes-plus are? I find it difficult to believe that they address how many sexual partners are acceptable in the student code of conduct. I've attended the U twice (undergrad and grad) and I don't remember reading anything about the requisite number of sexual partners that were acceptable by the student code of conduct. None of the orientation group leaders mentioned it either.

    Quote Originally Posted by ComoGopher View Post
    Worst possible punishment is getting kicked out of school. Nobody has a criminal record here. If they were not football players nobody would even care.
    Well, that, along with anyone searching for you finding your name linked to sexual assault forever.

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