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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by short ornery norwegian View Post
    Apparently this needs to be said again:

    If the players are telling the truth, the woman was a willing participant.

    I wasn't there. I don't know what happened.

    but - unless you were there and you know 1st-hand what happened, there is a possibility that the players are telling the truth. there is also a possibility that the players are lying. that's why these cases are so hard to prove in court.

    Now, in the court of public opinion, group sex seems icky to a lot of people, whether it was consensual or not. But I don't presume to judge other people's lifestyles or behavior. If someone feels they are qualified or justified to pass judgement on other people, that's your thing.
    Again, first, let's not think that because more than one person testifies on one side, does not mean it is more believable, especially when they are co-defendants. And, the only person in the room that can say if she consented is the accuser. And, in her testimony, she never did. Doesn't matter what the men said at all. The only question that remains is whether there is any evidence which backs up her position. The only evidence that is available that suggests no legal consent occurred is the alcohol. According to state law, consent may not be granted held up when alcohol is involved. Very long standing history in the courts regarding this principle.

    I pass judgement on people without a court granting me permission every day of the week and twice on Sunday. It is American as apple pie and yogurt parfaits.

    The Founders gave Americans the right to have jury trials for a reason, because they trusted the publics judgement on matters of law. So, judging people is a good attribute to have, not a bad one. Or, there would be no reason at all for juries to exist.
    Last edited by Dean S; 05-17-2019 at 05:29 PM.
    You can call me Shirley. The "S" has to stand for something!


  2. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean S View Post
    Again, first, let's not think that because more than one person testifies on one side, does not mean it is more believable, especially when they are co-defendants. And, the only person in the room that can say if she consented is the accuser. And, in her testimony, she never did. Doesn't matter what the men said at all. The only question that remains is whether there is any evidence which backs up her position. The only evidence that is available that suggests no legal consent occurred is the alcohol. According to state law, consent may not be granted held up when alcohol is involved. Very long standing history in the courts regarding this principle.

    I pass judgement on people without a court granting me permission every day of the week and twice on Sunday. It is American as apple pie and yogurt parfaits.

    The Founders gave Americans the right to have jury trials for a reason, because they trusted the publics judgement on matters of law. So, judging people is a good attribute to have, not a bad one. Or, there would be no reason at all for juries to exist.
    I think it was also basically proven from both the video tape and from the amount the accuser herself said she had - that she wasnít drunk. But please, carry on.


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  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoofin View Post
    I think it was also basically proven from both the video tape and from the amount the accuser herself said she had - that she wasn’t drunk. But please, carry on.


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    That is right, you can tell by looking at someone. That is why a breath alcohol test should have been administered by the police, but they didn't do this basic police work. Very trustworthy of them to protect the accused by failing to do this very simple police work. And, what do you know of the law of the land and a BAT test? Next to nothing by your brilliant deduction that alcohol can be judged by a video tape.
    You can call me Shirley. The "S" has to stand for something!

  4. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean S View Post
    That is right, you can tell by looking at someone. That is why a breath alcohol test should have been administered by the police, but they didn't do this basic police work. Very trustworthy of them to protect the accused by failing to do this very simple police work. And, what do you know of the law of the land and a BAT test? Next to nothing by your brilliant deduction that alcohol can be judged by a video tape.
    Video tape and listening to the accuser on the amount/timeframe she drank may not prove she wasnít drunk definitively, but it is evidence to suggest she wasnít. What you got for evidence on your accusation? A theory of Police Coverup? Brilliant indeed.


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  5. #185

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    Doesn’t matter if a crime was committed. What matters is they were deemed to have broken the code of conduct and were thusly expelled.

  6. #186
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    Default No. Not coverup. Failure to follow through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoofin View Post
    Video tape and listening to the accuser on the amount/timeframe she drank may not prove she wasnít drunk definitively, but it is evidence to suggest she wasnít. What you got for evidence on your accusation? A theory of Police Coverup? Brilliant indeed.


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    A failure to do proper police procedure over decades on rape cases is evident from the rape test kits not processed. It is also evident in the fact that few BATs were performed on the accused and the accusers. I can go on and on about procedure, but I have a few questions for you.

    1. Do you think women who drink heavily are appropriate sex pickup partners?

    2. Do you think drinking is an excuse for consent?

    3. Do you fully understand the cues women give for consent? And, what makes you an expert in this field?

    4. Have you participated in many social events where booze was a big part of the events?

    5. How many times in your life do you think you were led on by a drunk woman and were lied to when she refused your advances?

    Be careful what you answer because it can identify you as a serial rapist. I'll leave that up to you. But, your posts suggest that you have been involved in situations where alcohol and sex were involved. You defend the indefensible way too easily. Statistically, many men have been mistaken about what women want when they are drunk because of mistaken beliefs around alcohol and sex. And, I have no doubt that you fall or fell into that category and continue to defend those same stereotypes, all I have to do is read your junk on GH.

    In fact, most LAWYERS continue to hold those same mistaken beliefs on alcohol and women's sexual desire for sex and the cues they will send or not.

    I find it ironic what people think of as evidence because of mistaken stereotypes and their own history with booze and sex.
    You can call me Shirley. The "S" has to stand for something!

  7. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean S View Post
    A failure to do proper police procedure over decades on rape cases is evident from the rape test kits not processed. It is also evident in the fact that few BATs were performed on the accused and the accusers. I can go on and on about procedure, but I have a few questions for you.

    1. Do you think women who drink heavily are appropriate sex pickup partners?

    2. Do you think drinking is an excuse for consent?

    3. Do you fully understand the cues women give for consent? And, what makes you an expert in this field?

    4. Have you participated in many social events where booze was a big part of the events?

    5. How many times in your life do you think you were led on by a drunk woman and were lied to when she refused your advances?

    Be careful what you answer because it can identify you as a serial rapist. I'll leave that up to you. But, your posts suggest that you have been involved in situations where alcohol and sex were involved. You defend the indefensible way too easily. Statistically, many men have been mistaken about what women want when they are drunk because of mistaken beliefs around alcohol and sex. And, I have no doubt that you fall or fell into that category and continue to defend those same stereotypes, all I have to do is read your junk on GH.

    In fact, most LAWYERS continue to hold those same mistaken beliefs on alcohol and women's sexual desire for sex and the cues they will send or not.

    I find it ironic what people think of as evidence because of mistaken stereotypes and their own history with booze and sex.
    Simple answer? No. I have never been in such a situation. Ever. Not even close. Iím sorry you find my desire for evidence and proof so puzzling. Tells me a lot about you - and I am willing to bet I am spot on.


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  8. #188

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    This thread is so bad that I might enjoy a Shama article...

  9. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by A_Slab_of_Bacon View Post
    This thread is so bad that I might enjoy a Shama article...
    Well that’s what happens when you get a couple bad apples who try to engage in bad faith arguments.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by CurveballJesus View Post
    Roll Tide!
    LOL. I didn't even consider how that read.
    Aloha Mr. Hand

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by A_Slab_of_Bacon View Post
    This thread is so bad that I might enjoy a Shama article...
    It's like herpes..................you think it's gone but it always comes back.

  12. #192
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    IIRC from previous discussions in GH and elsewhere, normally upperclassmen escort prospective recruits during their visits under Jerry Kill. For some reason - the Gophers coaching staff under Claeys allowed Sophomore Central Lakes JC transfer Carlton Djam (because of his high incoming GPA?) to escort a seventeen year recruit (his name have been redacted everywhere) during his recruiting visit.

    This should have never happened. It points to Tracy Claeys' lack of overall coaching experience to allow this lack of control. Don't get me wrong. Claeys was a good Xs & Os guy and a good person. He is simply inexperienced in other matters of running a football program.

    This sex scandal is a huge black mark to the U and the football program. There is no way that Tracy Claeys would have remained head coach.

    The crux of the incident is summarized below by Casey Common and Michael Rand of the Strib.

    From the Strib December 16, 2016:
    How did this start?

    A female University of Minnesota student told police she was sexually assaulted by several men the night of Sept. 1 in the off-campus Minneapolis apartment of Gophers football player Carlton Djam.

    The woman said she had five or six shots of vodka before accompanying Djam to his apartment, and she did not remember parts of the night when she spoke to police. At some point, they began having sex, but the police report said “she doesn’t have a recall about how the sex acts started.”

    According to that police report and the student’s testimony, more men came into the room and became involved in the sex acts. She estimated that at least a dozen men took turns assaulting her. “I was shoving people off me,” she told police. “They kept ignoring my pleas for help.” She said she wasn’t forced to stay but didn’t feel like she could leave.

    Police interviewed Djam and four other football players, who all said they had consensual sex with the student. A Minneapolis police investigator who viewed videos provided by Djam said “the sexual contact appears to be entirely consensual.”


    Is this rape or consensual sex? It is a case of who do you want to believe.

    http://www.startribune.com/what-you-...rsy/407110386/

    Is this different from the Brock Turner case? He was a star athlete and a member of Stanford University Varsity Swim team who sexually assaulted an unconscious drunken woman behind a skip. In this case, it is rape IMHO.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a7069111.html
    Last edited by hungan1; 05-18-2019 at 06:23 AM.
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  13. #193

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    Somehow I doubt Claeys was handpicking each assignment. That’s usually why you have a whole team of people that work on recruiting weekends. Maybe an upperclassman was supposed to do it originally, but got sick or had a family emergency? So they asked Djam last second? I’m making that up, to demonstrate my point. I don’t know for sure, but it seems plausible to me.

    And well never know of course, but it’s pretty incredible to think that one little foolish decision to have Djam escort this recruit, which at the time I’m sure was both overlooked and seemingly meaningless, brought down an entire coaching regime.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoofin View Post
    Simple answer? No. I have never been in such a situation. Ever. Not even close. Iím sorry you find my desire for evidence and proof so puzzling. Tells me a lot about you - and I am willing to bet I am spot on.


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    Let's talk about alcohol toxicity and human performance for a minute. You said you could tell from the video that she wasn't drunk. Well, let's put that to the test with this scenario. A person becomes alcohol toxic, and motor skills are impaired. Can you tell the class the signs of motor impairment exhibited by a person with alcohol toxicity?

    Or, what are the signs of alcohol toxicity on speech?

    Decision making?

    Sexual desire?

    Alcohol toxicity on self perception and awareness?

    You talk about no evidence, but you haven't provided the class with your credentials or reasons either. So, fess up Sherlock! What makes you think you are right about the woman in the video not being drunk?
    You can call me Shirley. The "S" has to stand for something!

  15. #195

    Default Accused ex-Gophers do documentary on the alleged gang rape, get ripped for smirking

    Quote Originally Posted by Dean S View Post
    You said you could tell from the video that she wasn't drunk.
    No I did not. I said the video tape was evidence supporting the fact she was not drunk ó NOT my interpretation, that was the interpretation of the police. Maybe you should have them teach your class.

    I also said the fact that she herself claimed to have something like 5 drinks, over several hours IIRC, before the incident is evidence that supports she was not drunk.

    I wasnít there. I canít tell you exactly what happened. Not sure why you are so certain she was heavily intoxicated and the police covered it up.

    My opinion on this subject is crystal clear - I believe in innocent until proven guilty. Guilt was not proven. I believe the EOAA investigation and the Us handling of that was an absolute sh!t show. The leader leaving her job and a large lawsuit against the U seems to support that others agree.


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    Last edited by Spoofin; 05-18-2019 at 06:52 AM.
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