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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    If a coach truly isn't interested in winning right away, it will usually manifest itself in 2 ways. (1) - the coach will basically ignore Jucos and grad transfers in the recruiting process to focus exclusively on high school recruits. (2) Players on the team that were starters will be benched in favor of younger guys, i.e. the new coach's recruits. Neither of these happened under Fleck. People continue to falsely believe that PJ doesn't heavily recruit Jucos and grad transfers even though I would imagine he's averaged more per class than Kill ever did. I also can't think of a single upperclassmen who was expected to start or contribute heavily that was suddenly benched for someone who didn't appear to be significantly better.


    Morgan was a true freshman when we had to endure Rhoda and Demry. Even the best of freshmen might not be ready right away, so I wouldn't say that playing a 5th year senior and 3rd year sophomore was sacrificing the season. As for Brohm, I have no idea what he's brought in for Jucos and transfers.
    Don't have numbers on transfers but would agree Fleck has brought in more transfers then other recent coaches here. Although I don't think many of them were grad transfers out side of MDT.

    This is rough based on a quick glance at the recruiting sites so someone will maybe need to get better numbers but from what I can see Fleck has not recruited JC guys heavily at all. I may have missed a few but this is what I came up with in terms of JUCO players.

    Fleck
    2017 - 2
    2018 - 2
    2019 - 2

    Claeys
    2016 - 5

    Kill
    2011 - 2
    2012 - 4
    2013 - 3
    2014 - 2
    2015 - 1

    Brohm at Purdue
    2017 - At least 6 JC guys and I know he brought in a handful of transfers as well. His last couple classes have been heavy with high school recruits but he brought in a bunch of upper classmen to play in 2017 and 2018 which is why they graduated a ton of players off of last year's offense.


  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by MNVCGUY View Post
    The stuff in bold would have been true if Claeys had still been the coach yet there are still those that maintain 2017 would have bee a good year without the coaching change. The defense might have been fine under Claeys that year but that offensive trainwreck was easy to see coming from a mile away.
    Good Year? That is subjective, but I think it takes significant effort to not think 2017 would have been better w/o the coaching change. With that said, I doubt 2019 would look as promising w/o it either. Short-term pain, long-term gain seems to fit.


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  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by MNVCGUY View Post
    Don't have numbers on transfers but would agree Fleck has brought in more transfers then other recent coaches here. Although I don't think many of them were grad transfers out side of MDT.

    This is rough based on a quick glance at the recruiting sites so someone will maybe need to get better numbers but from what I can see Fleck has not recruited JC guys heavily at all. I may have missed a few but this is what I came up with in terms of JUCO players.

    Fleck
    2017 - 4 (Chris Williamson, OJ Smith, Royal Silver, Ben Davis)
    2018 - 2 (Viramontes, Dickson)
    2019 - 5 (Schad, Clemmons, Owens, Dew-Treadway, Grimes)

    Claeys
    2016 - 5

    Kill
    2011 - 2
    2012 - 4
    2013 - 3
    2014 - 2
    2015 - 1

    Brohm at Purdue
    2017 - At least 6 JC guys and I know he brought in a handful of transfers as well. His last couple classes have been heavy with high school recruits but he brought in a bunch of upper classmen to play in 2017 and 2018 which is why they graduated a ton of players off of last year's offense.
    Thanks for pulling this together. Fleck's numbers are significantly higher if transfers (grad and regular) are included - which they should be as they are serving the same purpose as a Juco - plug holes and get better quickly.

    So Fleck has taken 11 Jucos and transfers in 3 years for an average of 3.7/class.
    Kill took 12 in 5 years for an average of 2.4/class.
    Claeys was the highest in his one season with 5.

    So Fleck has averaged more than 1 Juco/transfer per year than Kill did. Yet Kill has the reputation of dipping heavily into the Juco ranks, and PJ is viewed as someone who spurns them.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Thanks for pulling this together. Fleck's numbers are significantly higher if transfers (grad and regular) are included - which they should be as they are serving the same purpose as a Juco - plug holes and get better quickly.

    So Fleck has taken 11 Jucos and transfers in 3 years for an average of 3.7/class.
    Kill took 12 in 5 years for an average of 2.4/class.
    Claeys was the highest in his one season with 5.

    So Fleck has averaged more than 1 Juco/transfer per year than Kill did. Yet Kill has the reputation of dipping heavily into the Juco ranks, and PJ is viewed as someone who spurns them.
    I think PJs reputation probably came from some statements he made early in his time here where he made it sound like he didn't want to go the JUCO route. He definitely switched modes for year 2 (or year 1 as he would say).

    I applaud him for the change though. I think sometimes PJ makes statements about things that sound like they are absolutes, but in this case I think he realized he was wrong and wasn't too stubborn to change. I think that's a good quality to have.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNVCGUY View Post
    The unanswerable question of course is was the conservative offense they ran by design or was it more due to a lack of ability to find/develop playmakers on the offensive side of the ball? They did a solid job of finding RBs but their track record with QBs, WRs and to a lesser degree OL was not good. As a staff their recruiting strength was clearly on the defensive side of the ball where they found a number of solid under the radar guys.

    They didn't really have the option of trying to run a dynamic offense because they simply didn't have the personnel to do it. Contrast that against what we are seeing develop right now in regards to an offense with playmakers all over the place working behind what looks like it could be a really good offensive line.
    Yes kind of. This actually goes back to Mason. Kill and Mason had some similiarities. Both loved to coach, and both knew that if you play "fundamentals" football, you will win more than you lose. Even if at a SLIGHT talent deficit. I agree that part of it was who Kill and Claeys could bring in. The other part is they REALLY loved being teaching coaches. This is my opinion of course, but I think it is true. IMHO Confidence in teaching ability and the ability to spot a football player, no matter how raw, kind of influenced how they recruited. When you look at the progression of the program, and the players that were there in that era, you could see the growth.

    Same with Fleck's program to a degree. What I like about Fleck is he has networked in/ surrounded himself with personnel that are strong where he is "weak".

    The state of the program is strong! and getting stronger.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Thanks for pulling this together. Fleck's numbers are significantly higher if transfers (grad and regular) are included - which they should be as they are serving the same purpose as a Juco - plug holes and get better quickly.

    So Fleck has taken 11 Jucos and transfers in 3 years for an average of 3.7/class.
    Kill took 12 in 5 years for an average of 2.4/class.
    Claeys was the highest in his one season with 5.

    So Fleck has averaged more than 1 Juco/transfer per year than Kill did. Yet Kill has the reputation of dipping heavily into the Juco ranks, and PJ is viewed as someone who spurns them.
    My numbers for Kill and Claeys didn't include any transfers they may have brought in so that might shift things some, those are just JUCO guys. On the JUCO front Fleck is pretty similar to Kill, but agree that he has been far more active at bringing in transfers and promising looking transfers at that.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNVCGUY View Post
    Don't have numbers on transfers but would agree Fleck has brought in more transfers then other recent coaches here. Although I don't think many of them were grad transfers out side of MDT.

    This is rough based on a quick glance at the recruiting sites so someone will maybe need to get better numbers but from what I can see Fleck has not recruited JC guys heavily at all. I may have missed a few but this is what I came up with in terms of JUCO players.

    Fleck
    2017 - 2
    2018 - 2
    2019 - 2

    Claeys
    2016 - 5

    Kill
    2011 - 2
    2012 - 4
    2013 - 3
    2014 - 2
    2015 - 1

    Brohm at Purdue
    2017 - At least 6 JC guys and I know he brought in a handful of transfers as well. His last couple classes have been heavy with high school recruits but he brought in a bunch of upper classmen to play in 2017 and 2018 which is why they graduated a ton of players off of last year's offense.
    He made a conscious decision to try to win right away and he turned that into the top 25 class for 2019. PJ is taking a more circuitous route and arguments can be made for that but nationally in terms of hype and recruiting Brohmís approach paid off more early. Will it hold true going forward? MN looks ready to compete for the west. This is going to be fun (I hope).

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Thanks for pulling this together. Fleck's numbers are significantly higher if transfers (grad and regular) are included - which they should be as they are serving the same purpose as a Juco - plug holes and get better quickly.

    So Fleck has taken 11 Jucos and transfers in 3 years for an average of 3.7/class.
    Kill took 12 in 5 years for an average of 2.4/class.
    Claeys was the highest in his one season with 5.

    So Fleck has averaged more than 1 Juco/transfer per year than Kill did. Yet Kill has the reputation of dipping heavily into the Juco ranks, and PJ is viewed as someone who spurns them.
    And for all we know PJ would rather not go the JUCO route a lot but ... like all good coach's he is pragmatic.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by STPGopher View Post
    Yes kind of. This actually goes back to Mason. Kill and Mason had some similiarities. Both loved to coach, and both knew that if you play "fundamentals" football, you will win more than you lose. Even if at a SLIGHT talent deficit. I agree that part of it was who Kill and Claeys could bring in. The other part is they REALLY loved being teaching coaches. This is my opinion of course, but I think it is true. IMHO Confidence in teaching ability and the ability to spot a football player, no matter how raw, kind of influenced how they recruited. When you look at the progression of the program, and the players that were there in that era, you could see the growth.

    Same with Fleck's program to a degree. What I like about Fleck is he has networked in/ surrounded himself with personnel that are strong where he is "weak".

    The state of the program is strong! and getting stronger.
    You are spot on with Mason and Kill being very similar in terms of a lot of things and especially recruiting. Both were strong on one side of the ball (Offense for Mason, Defense for Kill) and knew how to identify guys that fit their mold on that side of the ball. At the same time both really struggled to find the same consistent success on the other side of the ball.

    Kill and Mason also shared very similar recruiting philosophies. They didn't want to go to war with the helmet schools (or even other BIG schools a lot of the time) for players and instead chose to focus their efforts on the next tier/under the radar guys. They were good at finding those players who might be a bit undersized or a step slow but were still very good football players that fit their mold. It was the kind of recruiting that makes you a good team but also makes it really hard to become a great team.

    Fleck is willing to pursue some of those higher level recruits and go to war with other schools in the BIG for players. He is very similar to Brewster in this way with the obvious difference being that Fleck has a vision for his program whereas Brewster was learning on the job and had no clue what he was doing or any business even being a head coach at a power 5 school.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pompous Elitist View Post
    He made a conscious decision to try to win right away and he turned that into the top 25 class for 2019. PJ is taking a more circuitous route and arguments can be made for that but nationally in terms of hype and recruiting Brohm’s approach paid off more early. Will it hold true going forward? MN looks ready to compete for the west. This is going to be fun (I hope).
    Yep...there really is no way to predict the West right now because there are a bunch of teams that all look like they could have a shot at winning it this season. Could easily see this being one of those years where no team in the division has a great record because they all beat up on each other. Hopefully the Gophers can find a way to end up on top when the dust settles.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Thanks for pulling this together. Fleck's numbers are significantly higher if transfers (grad and regular) are included - which they should be as they are serving the same purpose as a Juco - plug holes and get better quickly.

    So Fleck has taken 11 Jucos and transfers in 3 years for an average of 3.7/class.
    Kill took 12 in 5 years for an average of 2.4/class.
    Claeys was the highest in his one season with 5.

    So Fleck has averaged more than 1 Juco/transfer per year than Kill did. Yet Kill has the reputation of dipping heavily into the Juco ranks, and PJ is viewed as someone who spurns them.
    Did you include the transfers Kill brought in? I think Kill brought in Beal and the OSU o-lineman off the top of my head. Not sure if theres others but not seeing them accounted for

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmacygopher View Post
    Did you include the transfers Kill brought in? I think Kill brought in Beal and the OSU o-lineman off the top of my head. Not sure if theres others but not seeing them accounted for
    That was the main reason I left transfers out because I couldn't remember who we brought in that way during the Kill years. The OSU lineman that never panned out was definitely one but I would guess there were a few others a long the way. Definitely feels like Fleck is more willing to go after transfers but tough to say for sure without being positive how many the previous staffs brought in.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNVCGUY View Post
    That was the main reason I left transfers out because I couldn't remember who we brought in that way during the Kill years. The OSU lineman that never panned out was definitely one but I would guess there were a few others a long the way. Definitely feels like Fleck is more willing to go after transfers but tough to say for sure without being positive how many the previous staffs brought in.
    No issues with your analysis. JG included transfers in his numbers but not sure in the Kill numbers. Trying to keep it apples to apples but also too lazy to look at that many years worth of rosters and try to figure it out

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNVCGUY View Post
    You are spot on with Mason and Kill being very similar in terms of a lot of things and especially recruiting. Both were strong on one side of the ball (Offense for Mason, Defense for Kill) and knew how to identify guys that fit their mold on that side of the ball. At the same time both really struggled to find the same consistent success on the other side of the ball.

    Kill and Mason also shared very similar recruiting philosophies. They didn't want to go to war with the helmet schools (or even other BIG schools a lot of the time) for players and instead chose to focus their efforts on the next tier/under the radar guys. They were good at finding those players who might be a bit undersized or a step slow but were still very good football players that fit their mold. It was the kind of recruiting that makes you a good team but also makes it really hard to become a great team.

    Fleck is willing to pursue some of those higher level recruits and go to war with other schools in the BIG for players. He is very similar to Brewster in this way with the obvious difference being that Fleck has a vision for his program whereas Brewster was learning on the job and had no clue what he was doing or any business even being a head coach at a power 5 school.
    Agree. The one thing I will say about Brewster is that IMHO the timing of the hire did him in. I think he wanted to be more of a balanced power team, but in scrambling to assemble a staff and save the first recruiting class, he was forced to work with what he could pull together in a hurry. I partially blame that on Maturi. If you are trying to build up the team for a new on campus stadium, you don't hire Brewster at that time. Especially without a strong mentor on the staff. Dunbar (The first OC under Brewster) wasn't it. If you hire a Brewster, you have to give someone like him the chance to learn how to be a head coach.

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmacygopher View Post
    Did you include the transfers Kill brought in? I think Kill brought in Beal and the OSU o-lineman off the top of my head. Not sure if theres others but not seeing them accounted for
    No I didn't - I was just using the numbers that MNVCGUY provided. It may bring Kill's numbers up slightly, but I think it will still be below PJ. Beal was a transfer during the Brewster era if I remember correctly.

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