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  1. #301

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_Loblaw View Post
    I thought the point of a shot was to go in.

    If you have more set looks than shots off the dribble, more of them (for almost every single player on the planet), will go in.

    My point was that a large portion of Amir's problem was the shots he was forced to take rather than the shot itself. I am not saying he is a great shooter, but he is a decent shooter for a wing.
    He is a highly inconsistent shooter - not consistent enough to be called a “decent” shooter for a wing. He had games he just disappeared as a shooter.

    Also, you’re normally more neutral in your description. The weave you described was used less and less throughout the year, and they ran pretty good offense the last part of the year, when they took Amir off point more and more.


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  2. #302

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzy&Ray View Post
    He is a highly inconsistent shooter - not consistent enough to be called a “decent” shooter for a wing. He had games he just disappeared as a shooter.

    Also, you’re normally more neutral in your description. The weave you described was used less and less throughout the year, and they ran pretty good offense the last part of the year, when they took Amir off point more and more.


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    Amir shot 36.8% from 3 his sophomore year when he wasn't forced to take countless difficult shots off the dribble. That qualifies as decent. I'd bet if he came back for his senior year he would have shot between 35-38% from 3.

  3. #303

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    Maybe Amir's decision had as much to do with potential injury risk as anything else and/or the Gophers medical & training staff from his shoulder situation. I think he would have been gone after last year had he stayed healthy.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by die hard gopher View Post
    He won't be playing point if he makes it in the NBA. His handle is actually very good for a 6-8 wing and he wouldn't be guarded by NBA PG's.
    Most steals don't come from man on man defense and don't you think there will be switches and rotations? His handle is really bad for an NBA player under 6-10.
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  5. #305

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzy&Ray View Post
    He is a highly inconsistent shooter - not consistent enough to be called a “decent” shooter for a wing. He had games he just disappeared as a shooter.

    Also, you’re normally more neutral in your description. The weave you described was used less and less throughout the year, and they ran pretty good offense the last part of the year, when they took Amir off point more and more.


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    I am just saying our offense hurt Amir's shooting percentages. He took considerably more threes off the bounce than a typical SG/SF in college basketball. If you just picture last year, Amir did a lot of shooting out of the pick and roll, iso situations, etc. I am not even really blaming Pitino for it, we didn't have many other options.

    As far as his shooting, I'd say it was decent. I think Amir would be about a 37-39% 3PT shooter in college basketball if he played with a point guard. I'm not saying he is a great shooter, I am saying he wouldn't have been similar to like a Josh Okogie last year. You'd say, he can shoot a little bit.

  6. #306

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Söze View Post
    Amir shot 36.8% from 3 his sophomore year when he wasn't forced to take countless difficult shots off the dribble. That qualifies as decent. I'd bet if he came back for his senior year he would have shot between 35-38% from 3.
    That's a misleading stat. Coffey only shot 55 3's the year before and most of them would have been against non-conference foes, before he got injured. Once he became a higher volume shooter the following year his percentage went down. I can't recall many times where he forced a three, in fact it seemed that teams dared him to shoot them as they laid back for his drives. The drives were where he forced up difficult shots. I will agree that he would have been better off playing with a PG instead of as one.

  7. #307

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    Quote Originally Posted by bga1 View Post
    That's a misleading stat. Coffey only shot 55 3's the year before and most of them would have been against non-conference foes, before he got injured. Once he became a higher volume shooter the following year his percentage went down. I can't recall many times where he forced a three, in fact it seemed that teams dared him to shoot them as they laid back for his drives. The drives were where he forced up difficult shots. I will agree that he would have been better off playing with a PG instead of as one.
    Huh? He shot 3s with pretty much the same frequency both seasons. He shot 3.2 3s per game as a sophomore and 3.8 as a junior, but he also played more minutes per game last season. The volume was pretty much the same between the two seasons, the only meaningful difference was the fact that he shot so many more 3s off the dribble as a junior. He's better at shooting off the catch after a kickout than he is shooting off the dribble, so in theory, his shooting percentage should go up if he's playing with a point guard and taking fewer shots off the dribble. I'm surprised anyone would disagree with that.

  8. #308

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Söze View Post
    Huh? He shot 3s with pretty much the same frequency both seasons. He shot 3.2 3s per game as a sophomore and 3.8 as a junior, but he also played more minutes per game last season. The volume was pretty much the same between the two seasons, the only meaningful difference was the fact that he shot so many more 3s off the dribble as a junior. He's better at shooting off the catch after a kickout than he is shooting off the dribble, so in theory, his shooting percentage should go up if he's playing with a point guard and taking fewer shots off the dribble. I'm surprised anyone would disagree with that.
    I don't disagree with the fact that he is much better shooting a catch and shoot than off the dribble- but the stats are what they are...see below.


    FG FG% 3PT 3P% FT FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
    131-292 44.9 32-95 33.7 110-146 75.3 23 104 127 102 5 35 57 64 404 Frosh
    87-183 47.5 21-57 36.8 57-83 68.7 17 56 73 60 5 13 36 35 252 Soph
    198-454 43.6 41-135 30.4 162-219 74.0 25 106 131 115 8 33 54 83 599 Junior
    Season Misc Totals
    Last edited by bga1; 06-04-2019 at 10:14 AM.

  9. #309

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    Quote Originally Posted by bga1 View Post
    I don't disagree with the fact that he is much better shooting a catch and shoot than off the dribble- but the stats are what they are...see below.


    FG FG% 3PT 3P% FT FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
    131-292 44.9 32-95 33.7 110-146 75.3 23 104 127 102 5 35 57 64 404 Frosh
    87-183 47.5 21-57 36.8 57-83 68.7 17 56 73 60 5 13 36 35 252 Soph
    198-454 43.6 41-135 30.4 162-219 74.0 25 106 131 115 8 33 54 83 599 Junior
    Season Misc Totals
    I'm not sure what you're pointing out here.

    If you're trying to support your theory that he suddenly started shooting a lot more 3s his junior year, these stats don't prove that. He played 18 games (31.6 mpg) his sophomore year and 36 games (35.2 mpg) his junior year. Of course he's going to have more attempts in the year that he played twice as many games and almost 5 more minutes per game.
    Last edited by Keyser Söze; 06-04-2019 at 11:38 AM.

  10. #310

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Söze View Post
    I'm not sure what you're pointing out here.
    Just pointing out that he took far fewer shots the year he was injured and accumulated the 36.8% 3 point stat. Most of those shots would have probably occurred against weaker non- conference foes. The stat line shows he was 21-57 his soph year.

  11. #311

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    Quote Originally Posted by bga1 View Post
    Just pointing out that he took far fewer shots the year he was injured and accumulated the 36.8% 3 point stat. Most of those shots would have probably occurred against weaker non- conference foes. The stat line shows he was 21-57 his soph year.
    He shot about 36% against Big Ten teams that year. I predicted he'd shoot between 35-38% from 3 if he came back next year.

    You implied his 3 point % went down because he started shooting a lot more. He shot 4.0 3s per 40 minutes as a sophomore and 4.3 3s per 40 minutes as a junior. I guess we will have to disagree on that being the reason.
    Last edited by Keyser Söze; 06-04-2019 at 11:53 AM.

  12. #312

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    Quote Originally Posted by bga1 View Post
    I don't disagree with the fact that he is much better shooting a catch and shoot than off the dribble- but the stats are what they are...see below.


    FG FG% 3PT 3P% FT FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
    131-292 44.9 32-95 33.7 110-146 75.3 23 104 127 102 5 35 57 64 404 Frosh
    87-183 47.5 21-57 36.8 57-83 68.7 17 56 73 60 5 13 36 35 252 Soph
    198-454 43.6 41-135 30.4 162-219 74.0 25 106 131 115 8 33 54 83 599 Junior
    Season Misc Totals
    I can't find a good place where they track it in the NCAA, but they track stats much more thoroughly for the NBA. They always keep track of percentage off a dribble and those sorts of numbers.

    Amir is a much better shooter when he can catch and shoot than off a dribble. This is true for almost every person who has ever played basketball. There are some absolute elite level shooters who are still deadly off the dribble, but that is rare, even in the NBA. This is actually precisely my point, Amir was shooting a much higher volume of threes and most of those were off the bounce because he was our point guard. That altered his percentages because you point out, he is a much better shooter in catch and shoot situations. Getting better shots will always help shooting numbers for everyone. However, Amir's numbers were altered (less catch and shoot situations) more than most college wings.


    I'm not saying that I think Amir is a great shooter. I am saying that if he is in catch and shoot situations, he can keep a defense honest (PJ Tucker, Trevor Ariza).

  13. #313

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser Söze View Post
    He shot about 36% against Big Ten teams that year. I predicted he'd shoot between 35-38% from 3 if he came back next year.

    You implied his 3 point % went down because he started shooting a lot more. He shot 4.0 3s per 40 minutes as a sophomore and 4.3 3s per 40 minutes as a junior. I guess we will have to disagree on that being the reason.
    Yeah - no big disagreement and indeed I think he might well have shot much better with Carr as PG. Coffey just isn't a PG as we all know. My point was narrow- and that was simply that the 57 shots his soph year was a much smaller sample. I think the bottom line with Coffey in college and most certainly will be in the pros- he is better off when he is not necessarily the focal point of the offense but rather just part of it.

  14. #314

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_Loblaw View Post
    I am just saying our offense hurt Amir's shooting percentages. He took considerably more threes off the bounce than a typical SG/SF in college basketball. If you just picture last year, Amir did a lot of shooting out of the pick and roll, iso situations, etc. I am not even really blaming Pitino for it, we didn't have many other options.

    As far as his shooting, I'd say it was decent. I think Amir would be about a 37-39% 3PT shooter in college basketball if he played with a point guard. I'm not saying he is a great shooter, I am saying he wouldn't have been similar to like a Josh Okogie last year. You'd say, he can shoot a little bit.
    Agreed. His dad always wanted him to play on the ball, point guard, which he isn’t. However, when Pitino got them playing how he would like more, at the end of the year, with both McBrayer and Coffey handling the ball, his shooting improved a lot. I think Pitino gave him a chance to prepare for next level a great deal, maybe not in shooting percentage, but playing multiple positions.



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  15. #315

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    The cherry-picking of statistics on this thread is impressive. For Amir's sake, I hope some NBA teams do the same.

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