Doogie: Bad news: told that RB Jason Williamson tore his right ACL

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Places like Lambeau use heating coils to keep their grass hybrid field warm during cold snaps. Do we have heating coils?

They also use grow lights in the parts of the field that don’t receive sun. Pretty nice system. Obviously the field stays a lot cooler in August and September.

I’d like to see some grass clods in QB helmets.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Places like Lambeau use heating coils to keep their grass hybrid field warm during cold snaps. Do we have heating coils?

They also use grow lights in the parts of the field that don’t receive sun. Pretty nice system. Obviously the field stays a lot cooler in August and September.
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And despite all the millions per year that stadiums in Green Bay, Chicago, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh spend in order to attempt to maintain a decent grass surface for 8-11 events a year, anyone can clearly see every year that the grass simply can't hold up in adverse conditions, providing a slippery, poor, dangerous surface for players. And certainly will never look as sharp or good as turf.

Then combine with the need for more events per year and a much lower maintenance budget at the U, grass at TCF simply isn't on the table.
 

Gophers_4life said:
And despite all the millions per year that stadiums in Green Bay, Chicago, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh spend in order to attempt to maintain a decent grass surface for 8-11 events a year, anyone can clearly see every year that the grass simply can't hold up in adverse conditions, providing a slippery, poor, dangerous surface for players. And certainly will nevuer look as sharp or good as turf.

Then combine with the need for more events per year and a much lower maintenance budget at the U, grass at TCF simply isn't on the table.
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Is this a major consideration?? You probably really, really like clean uniforms as well.

You think schools can pay players, but can’t afford to maintain a lightly used stadium field and practice fields. Huh.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
can’t afford to maintain a lightly used stadium field and practice fields. Huh.
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The stadium turf is not lightly used at TCF. I know the band is on it daily during the season and I believe there are classes that use it as well. Add in concerts and other special events and grass is just not going to hold up.
 




happygophersgolucky said:
Actually I am raising it as a possibility. What I am suggesting is that some simple, common sense, easily implemented, non-irreversable changes be considered while longer term solutions are carefully considered. Nothing too radical from a Gopher alum.

Considering the need for more data. As a "U" trained scientist with a statistical background, I couldn't agree more.To determine if anything connected to the surface at the Larson Performance Center may be involved, we also need the record of ACL injuries (tears and sprains) when the old field house was used for FB practices. Then the probability of a causative effect vs. very bad luck can be determined.

A quick Google search found some interesting info. An evaluation presented at a 2013 American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons Annual Meeting found that “The rate of ACL injury in NCAA football is significantly greater on third-generation artifical (sic) turf”.

https://www.healio.com/orthopedics/...rs-higher-on-third-generation-artificial-turf

The discussion of the "third generation" artificial turf was particularly interesting. At least as of 2008-2009 season which was last included in this study, "surfaces with higher amounts of artificial fill, including sand and rubber components or third-generation types of turf, had higher levels of injuries in comparison to the first- and second-generation types of turf that typically have a shorter blade length." Advances in synthetic athletic turf technology thru 2008 appeared to be heading in the wrong direction.

What generation turf are we dealing with? What type of fill? Any data or studies?

The Miami Dolphins apparently took discussions of fill technology seriously, as they should. They have recently converted to an organic based fill system with their previous artificial surface.
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As for the statistics part, correct, but I'd still argue that rare events are difficult to quantize and predict, and one or two odd events (i.e., random injuries not attributable to turf) can throw off the numbers from reality in a hurry. That said, your discussion here is excellent regarding 3rd-gen turf. If anyone finds information about what, exactly, the U installed, and how turf may have changed since a decade ago, that would be helpful.
 


cncmin said:
As for the statistics part, correct, but I'd still argue that rare events are difficult to quantize and predict, and one or two odd events (i.e., random injuries not attributable to turf) can throw off the numbers from reality in a hurry. That said, your discussion here is excellent regarding 3rd-gen turf. If anyone finds information about what, exactly, the U installed, and how turf may have changed since a decade ago, that would be helpful.
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Three RBs in less than 12 months could be an anomaly but doesn’t seem rare. It’s an interesting question that other larger studies have looked at.
 



That's sad to hear about a student athlete or anyone.

My nephew wanted to play in college and was looking at GT because he wanted a mechanical engineering degree.

He played on offense and defense in high school. His first ACL tear was in the 9th grade as a full back. He chose a cadaver ligament, but it was from an older downer. The very next year in 10th grade that same ACL tore again. The Dr. told his father that the new material came from a young downer and he should be capable of playing again after a year of rehab. In my nephew’s 11th grade year he tore his left ACL. That ended his hopes for football and a scholarship.

My brother bought his son a knee brace after his first tear, but after a few games he wouldn’t wear it because he said it slowed him down.

My nephew is now at UCF at the top of his class in mechanical engineering where his father got his electrical engineering degree so it worked out well for him anyway!


Those tears were on grass. As someone said in an another post genetic weakness plays a part.
 
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Pompous Elitist said:
Three RBs in less than 12 months could be an anomaly but doesn’t seem rare. It’s an interesting question that other larger studies have looked at.
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The one I have found gives ACL injuries expressed per 10,000 "athlete-exposures". An athlete-exposure is a student athlete participating in a game or practice. Hence a D-I FB player would probably have about 115 (without bowl games) annual official exposures. Two a day Fall practices add ?? Unofficial workouts add ?? Players not used in games or not practicing subtracts?? Using 9 Gopher RB's (Smith, Brooks, Mo, Williams, Green, Edmonds, Femi-Cole, London, Williamson) would give an estimated 1035 RB athlete-exposures last yr. At 4 ACL injuries per 1035 exposures our program experienced more than 31 times the expected 1.24 per 10,000 on natural grass or 27 times the 1.42 per 10,000 on artificial turf.

https://www.healio.com/orthopedics/...rs-higher-on-third-generation-artificial-turf

A simpler and more reliable answer to the question would be as follows:
1. After Spring Game, the AD or HC assigns a Quality Control associate to work with athletic trainers and facilities managers to gather ACL injury rates for Gopher RB's over say the last 10 yrs on grass practice fields, grass playing fields, dirt (old field house) practice fields, Larson Performance Center, artificial turf outside practice fields, Metrodome, TCF, opponents synthetic turf, etc. Consider the exact nature of each surface and number of exposures.
2. Plot the resultant annual RB ACL tear and strain injuries on both a per team (all surfaces) and per 10,000 athlete-exposure basis by surfaces.
3. The average annual number of ACL tears prior to any event (Larson PC, etc) can be used to determine the probability that the 4 observed over the last 12-13 months is expected or unusual.
4. A good answer should be doable in a couple of weeks with 3 to 5 current staff members who should already be interested in the nature of any possible problem. Da U is filled with statisticians, orthopaedics, etc. to help as needed. Or a sports medicine grad student looking for a thesis subject could be assigned at free-labor rates.
 

I think the Gopher sample size needs to be quite a bit larger than a 12 month period to get better statistics, eg a single team over an arbitrary period over ten years or multiple programs over a shorter time frame. It would be nice to account for prior injury, type of repair, month, weather conditions. Obviously some of that isn’t easily accessible but inquiring minds like to know.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
It says 48% of power 5 have grass. Seems like a pretty even split. How about Big Ten?
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But less than 12 percent of the rest of the schools. Probably averages out to about 30-ish%
 



Word said:
But less than 12 percent of the rest of the schools. Probably averages out to about 30-ish%
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I’d guess better financials for tending to the surfaces. Plus, some coaches likely have preferences and are more likely to get their way at a Power 5.

Obviously there are considerations for weather, usage although I’m not that sold on the band argument unless they’re wearing cleats. I can understand the weather argument at MN but there are coils according to legend.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
I’d guess better financials for tending to the surfaces. Plus, some coaches likely have preferences and are more likely to get their way at a Power 5.

Obviously there are considerations for weather, usage although I’m not that sold on the band argument unless they’re wearing cleats. I can understand the weather argument at MN but there are coils according to legend.
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I have personally witnessed the destruction of a high school grass field at the hands of a marching band show. It was wet conditions and they tore it up so bad it was shut down for the rest of the season.

Sent from my phone using Tapatalk
 

That sounds rad. Any injuries during the show?

In all seriousness the grasses and soils, drainages used in high end fields shouldn’t lead to a scene out of All Quiet on the Western Front barring Noah’s flood type stuff. We’ve all seen a few mud bowls eg The Gator Bowl always delivers and I’m not convinced that bit of muddy chaos isn’t part of the “fun” of watching football.
 


happygophersgolucky said:
The one I have found gives ACL injuries expressed per 10,000 "athlete-exposures". An athlete-exposure is a student athlete participating in a game or practice. Hence a D-I FB player would probably have about 115 (without bowl games) annual official exposures. Two a day Fall practices add ?? Unofficial workouts add ?? Players not used in games or not practicing subtracts?? Using 9 Gopher RB's (Smith, Brooks, Mo, Williams, Green, Edmonds, Femi-Cole, London, Williamson) would give an estimated 1035 RB athlete-exposures last yr. At 4 ACL injuries per 1035 exposures our program experienced more than 31 times the expected 1.24 per 10,000 on natural grass or 27 times the 1.42 per 10,000 on artificial turf.

https://www.healio.com/orthopedics/...rs-higher-on-third-generation-artificial-turf

A simpler and more reliable answer to the question would be as follows:
1. After Spring Game, the AD or HC assigns a Quality Control associate to work with athletic trainers and facilities managers to gather ACL injury rates for Gopher RB's over say the last 10 yrs on grass practice fields, grass playing fields, dirt (old field house) practice fields, Larson Performance Center, artificial turf outside practice fields, Metrodome, TCF, opponents synthetic turf, etc. Consider the exact nature of each surface and number of exposures.
2. Plot the resultant annual RB ACL tear and strain injuries on both a per team (all surfaces) and per 10,000 athlete-exposure basis by surfaces.
3. The average annual number of ACL tears prior to any event (Larson PC, etc) can be used to determine the probability that the 4 observed over the last 12-13 months is expected or unusual.
4. A good answer should be doable in a couple of weeks with 3 to 5 current staff members who should already be interested in the nature of any possible problem. Da U is filled with statisticians, orthopaedics, etc. to help as needed. Or a sports medicine grad student looking for a thesis subject could be assigned at free-labor rates.
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Another journal review (Gans et. al, 2018) https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2325967118777823 gave vastly higher historical ACL injury rates in NCAA football. They found 137 primary (1st time) ACL rupture injuries per 10,000 athlete-exposures. This appears to include all NCAA divisions and covers 2004-2014. Going by these higher averages, the Gophers experienced only 28% of the expected ACL injuries.

The Gophers definitely need their own study similar (better would be better!) to that outlined above.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
I’m not that sold on the band argument unless they’re wearing cleats
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Even 300 people just loitering for a cocktail party on live grass every day during the season would damage the grass. Keep in mind that the band's activity is not evenly spread across the entire field, but concentrated in a grid that is used for creating formations and most of the activity I would wager is concentrated further between the 20's.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
That sounds rad. Any injuries during the show?

In all seriousness the grasses and soils, drainages used in high end fields shouldn’t lead to a scene out of All Quiet on the Western Front barring Noah’s flood type stuff. We’ve all seen a few mud bowls eg The Gator Bowl always delivers and I’m not convinced that bit of muddy chaos isn’t part of the “fun” of watching football.
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For the record, I didn't watch the marching band show. Just saw the destruction the next day.

Just had to get those facts out there.
 

You guys are acting like we are the only team that has RBs that tear their ACLs.

It sucks but it happens, especially at this stage when these kids are pushing their bodies more than they every have before getting bigger and faster. Hope his surgery is routine and he comes back even stronger.
 

bottlebass said:
You guys are acting like we are the only team that has RBs that tear their ACLs.

It sucks but it happens, especially at this stage when these kids are pushing their bodies more than they every have before getting bigger and faster. Hope his surgery is routine and he comes back even stronger.
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Not you guys ... there are really only a few (mainly one person) advocating that TCF (and I assume the practice facility as well ... though obviously would be impossible to have it in the indoor practice facility ... even with some jerry-rigged grow light situation, because it just has too much going on there during the year) should have a natural grass surface.

Yet another wrinkle: what if coach Fleck wants to at least have one turf field for practicing on, so that the players can get used to that surface for an away game that would be played on turf? And then the injury occurs on that surface during that week of prep? You can't get away from it entirely. Will never happen. Too many stadiums and teams use it.


I know the hearts are in the right place, but it's not on the table, and isn't going to be. U athletic dept and facilities maintenance folks would never sign off.
 
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bottlebass said:
You guys are acting like we are the only team that has RBs that tear their ACLs.

It sucks but it happens, especially at this stage when these kids are pushing their bodies more than they every have before getting bigger and faster. Hope his surgery is routine and he comes back even stronger.
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And despite all the statistics, I get it that turf is here to stay so we just need to deal with it. It has a lot of advantages.
 

Word said:
And despite all the statistics, I get it that turf is here to stay so we just need to deal with it. It has a lot of advantages.
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All the statistics.. on conflicting data. For every study that says the rate is much higher on turf you can find one that says it isn't statistically significant.

One thing is for sure, RBs have high incidence of ACL tears. It sucks but it's true.
 

bottlebass said:
All the statistics.. on conflicting data. For every study that says the rate is much higher on turf you can find one that says it isn't statistically significant.

One thing is for sure, RBs have high incidence of ACL tears. It sucks but it's true.
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Also - a lot of people are talking about the stadium, but it definitely isn't realistic to have natural grass on our indoor practice field and probably not on an outdoor practice field either.

We just need to recruit running backs with stronger anterior cruciate ligaments. Is there a star system for that?
 

Word said:
Also - a lot of people are talking about the stadium, but it definitely isn't realistic to have natural grass on our indoor practice field and probably not on an outdoor practice field either.

We just need to recruit running backs with stronger anterior cruciate ligaments. Is there a star system for that?
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And as I mentioned in #82, there are so many other teams with turf in their stadiums, Fleck will undoubtedly want at least one turf field around so that he can prep the team for that surface for those games.

At this point, you'll never get away from it completely.
 

The true, true thing is this (which may never happen in our lifetimes): 1) figuring out if there is some way to prevent these tears in the first place (perhaps athletes could be surgically fitted with some kind of artificial band that will never tear, in the first place -- just making that up as a random idea), and 2) if there is some way to quickly mend the tears, good as new, without the need for months and months of rehab and recovery.
 

Ski U Master said:
Even 300 people just loitering for a cocktail party on live grass every day during the season would damage the grass. Keep in mind that the band's activity is not evenly spread across the entire field, but concentrated in a grid that is used for creating formations and most of the activity I would wager is concentrated further between the 20's.
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Well, what the band wants, the band gets.
 

bottlebass said:
All the statistics.. on conflicting data. For every study that says the rate is much higher on turf you can find one that says it isn't statistically significant.

One thing is for sure, RBs have high incidence of ACL tears. It sucks but it's true.
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Well, that’s not really true. The largest studies with the largest cohorts support a higher acl injury rate on artificial turf. I don’t think you’ll find a lot of disagreement on this in the scientific community. Fair to ask for more data and question if the rate difference is significant. Football is dangerous, after all.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25164575

A total of 10 studies with 963 ACL injuries met criteria for inclusion, all of which reported on soccer and football cohorts. Among these, 4 studies (753 ACL injuries) found an increased risk of ACL injury on artificial playing surfaces. All 4 of these articles were conducted using American football cohorts, and they included both earlier-generation surfaces (AstroTurf) and modern, 3rd-generation surfaces. Only 1 study in football players found a reduced risk of ACL injury on synthetic playing surfaces. No soccer cohort found an increased risk of ACL injury on synthetic surfaces.
 

I think there may be a knee jerk (no pun intended) reaction to the idea the U has invested in an inferior playing surface. There are certainly ways to get it to work as evidenced by other Power 5 schools in cooler climates.
 

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