Doogie: Bad news: told that RB Jason Williamson tore his right ACL

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i feel like running back is a plug and play position, especially with the gophers. sucks for this kid, let's keep the line healthy.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
The laws of physics (as currently understood) cannot be defeated. It stands to reason increasing friction and torque forces is more likely to exceed the threshold structural strength of ligament than if one were to reduce friction and torque. Anyone that has ever wrestled with e.g. an oil drain plug understands torque and finally reaching that magic pound foot that snaps the friction hold. Natural grass (and shorter cleats) is less likely to lead to this kind of injury IMHO.
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Totally agree. Would like to offer a corollary that until such time as grass (or dirt if need be for field house work) at least the RB's practice in standard tennis shoes (no cleats) or at least soccer style boots with small knoblike cleats. Should not have to wait for common sense (even with stats) to prevail in an expensive politically charged decision to remove artificial turf. What after all is the downside? Think Globally and Act Locally (or immediately) can be our motto on this one. Low cost, low technology solution. Given an apparent loss rate of 3 players (Smith, Brooks, and now Williamson) over less than 2 years, we should know relatively quickly if the changes are helping to protect our athletes and program.

This might also be a good policy for games played on artificial turf.
 

zman said:
Too expensive to operate, I am told.
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Actually, the coils were left under TCF field because it was too expensive to remove them. Was there also an insulating tarp? One could significantly reduce the heating costs for the Nov games which might have a hard frozen field otherwise. Like to see a good likely case scenario type cost analysis before any more guess work.

Another random thought. Would grow lights work to help natural grass grow in the new field house? Bet it would at very modest additional cost.
 


happygophersgolucky said:
Actually, the coils were left under TCF field because it was too expensive to remove them. Was there also an insulating tarp? One could significantly reduce the heating costs for the Nov games which might have a hard frozen field otherwise. Like to see a good likely case scenario type cost analysis before any more guess work.

Another random thought. Would grow lights work to help natural grass grow in the new field house? Bet it would at very modest additional cost.
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Grow grass INSIDE the Field House? I presume you want to do this on soil-grown grass? I don't see how that wouldn't turn into a wet bacteria/fungus nightmare over time. Field turf is relatively safe, much better than the old scratchy artificial turfs, and I'd like to see statistics that show field turf is much worse in terms of leg injuries than natural grass, if they exist (I'm not saying they don't). Injuries occur on both surfaces. Sometimes things just happen.
 


cncmin said:
Grow grass INSIDE the Field House? I presume you want to do this on soil-grown grass? I don't see how that wouldn't turn into a wet bacteria/fungus nightmare over time. Field turf is relatively safe, much better than the old scratchy artificial turfs, and I'd like to see statistics that show field turf is much worse in terms of leg injuries than natural grass, if they exist (I'm not saying they don't). Injuries occur on both surfaces. Sometimes things just happen.
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There are some issues with the studies...but most suggest lower leg injuries and particularly acl injury rates are significantly higher on artificial turf. The data isn’t hard to find, although it’s fair to quibble with the methodology as always.

It follows from the available data that as far as reducing injury rates it seems common sense for a well-funded Power 5 to exclusively use grass on their outdoor fields and use them to the extent possible rather than the indoor facility. I’m not sure how or why the artificial turf movement tool hold so powerfully although I’m sure there are weather-related reasons or keeping up with the Jones reasons.

It is certainly possible to grow grass indoors and is an interesting botanical thought problem but is probably cost prohibitive for a field house. There are professional teams around the world that have conquered it.
 

Tough break for the kid. Hope he comes back stronger.

Regarding turf, regardless of the studies, it’s just a common sense thing. Even the ‘better’ field turf doesn’t give. Grass and dirt have natural give to them. Grass will literally tear. Turf will not. Your ligaments will tear before the turf does.

I’ve played on all three surfaces; grass, the old astroturf crap and the newer field turf. The biggest benefit of the new stuff is that it doesn’t give you those awful burns and it’s definitely softer. But it’s still fake and I really wish schools would invest in natural grass. There’s no reason the Bank shouldn’t have a grass field.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
There are some issues with the studies...but most suggest lower leg injuries and particularly acl injury rates are significantly higher on artificial turf. The data isn’t hard to find, although it’s fair to quibble with the methodology as always.

It follows from the available data that as far as reducing injury rates it seems common sense for a well-funded Power 5 to exclusively use grass on their outdoor fields and use them to the extent possible rather than the indoor facility. I’m not sure how or why the artificial turf movement tool hold so powerfully although I’m sure there are weather-related reasons or keeping up with the Jones reasons.

It is certainly possible to grow grass indoors and is an interesting botanical thought problem but is probably cost prohibitive for a field house. There are professional teams around the world that have conquered it.
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Where is this being done for an indoor stadium? Not saying you're wrong, just wanting to look into how they do it.
 

Injuries happen. It's unfortunate, but the only 100% sure way to prevent injuries is this - don't practice, and don't play.

if there was a proven method to reduce ACL injuries, everyone would be following it.

In my experience, this stuff goes in cycles. A team will have a year with a lot of injuries, and then they'll have a year where they stay healthy.

It draws more attention when it impacts key players. With all due respect to Williamson, he was not a guy who was being counted on to play this season. he has time to rehab and still have a good career.

And finally - will just note that the treatment of sports injuries has advanced so far in the last 30+ years. When I was in college, a ligament tear meant cutting open the whole knee and putting the leg in a cast. Now, with arthroscopic surgery, recovery time is much faster and most players come back as good or better than they were before the injury. 30 years ago, Teddy Bridgewater would have probably lost a leg after his injury. Now, he's still playing NFL football.
 



Livingat45north said:
Where is this being done for an indoor stadium? Not saying you're wrong, just wanting to look into how they do it.
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Phoenix I believe has a roll out tray, a team in Amsterdam uses a pre-grown natural turf and rolls it on and keeps it alive with a combination of natural light and grow lights. I’m sure there are some others. Necessity is the mother of invention - I have no doubt a team of clever engineers and scientists could devise an indoor system without benefit of any natural sunlight or moisture if needed. Cost as always is the main factor.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
There are some issues with the studies...but most suggest lower leg injuries and particularly acl injury rates are significantly higher on artificial turf. The data isn’t hard to find, although it’s fair to quibble with the methodology as always.

It follows from the available data that as far as reducing injury rates it seems common sense for a well-funded Power 5 to exclusively use grass on their outdoor fields and use them to the extent possible rather than the indoor facility. I’m not sure how or why the artificial turf movement tool hold so powerfully although I’m sure there are weather-related reasons or keeping up with the Jones reasons.

It is certainly possible to grow grass indoors and is an interesting botanical thought problem but is probably cost prohibitive for a field house. There are professional teams around the world that have conquered it.
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Significant? Not according to this: https://www.livescience.com/57762-super-bowl-turf-or-grass-fields-injuries.html
 

Food for ACL thought. The Brooks (1st and 2nd), Smith, and Williamson RB ACL injuries all happened within the first 13? months of the team using the Larson Performance Center practice field. Granted the Smith and 2nd Brooks injury were in games. However, ACL's can be weakened on practice fields and finally torn on game fields. The 2nd Brooks injury was on the synthetic turf at TCF. Not sure of where Smith's injury occurred or the type of turf. How many coincidences are needed before patterns are taken seriously? To me, 4 serious similar injuries with factors in common in roughly a year at one position on one team is more than enough. It is too many.

For indoor practices, put the few precious RB's remaining in standard, no cleats Nike's now. Do not wait for time consuming discussions, arguments, excuses, coverups, ad nauseam.

Outdoor practice or games on synthetic turf may require the smallest feasible cleats (soccer style boots?) to reduce the Smith and 2nd Brooks type injuries.
 
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Pompous Elitist said:
Phoenix I believe has a roll out tray, a team in Amsterdam uses a pre-grown natural turf and rolls it on and keeps it alive with a combination of natural light and grow lights. I’m sure there are some others. Necessity is the mother of invention - I have no doubt a team of clever engineers and scientists could devise an indoor system without benefit of any natural sunlight or moisture if needed. Cost as always is the main factor.
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PHX does have it. I don't think it would work in MN unless it was permanently indoors, and I'm not sure they've found a viable way to do it.
 




happygophersgolucky said:
Food for ACL thought. The Brooks (1st and 2nd), Smith, and Williamson RB ACL injuries all happened within the first 13? months of the team using the Larson Performance Center practice field. Granted the Smith and 2nd Brooks injury were in games. However, ACL's can be weakened on practice fields and finally torn on game fields. The 2nd Brooks injury was on the synthetic turf at TCF. Not sure of where Smith's injury occurred or the type of turf. How many coincidences are needed before patterns are taken seriously? To me, 4 serious similar injuries with factors in common in roughly a year at one position on one team is more than enough. It is too many.

For indoor practices, put the few precious RB's remaining in standard, no cleats Nike's now. Do not wait for time consuming discussions, arguments, excuses, coverups, ad nauseam.

Outdoor practice or games on synthetic turf may require the smallest feasible cleats (soccer style boots?) to reduce the Smith and 2nd Brooks type injuries.
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Smith’s injury also happened at TCF - vs FSU


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PMWinSTP said:
PHX does have it. I don't think it would work in MN unless it was permanently indoors, and I'm not sure they've found a viable way to do it.
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Anything can be done for unlimited money. They could roll natural grass, in a big tray, into essentially a big “drawer” that would turn on grow lights focused right above the grass, to regrow it. Probably cost 10x.

And no good reason to do it.
 

I've also noticed that I've been gaining weight and losing hair ever since they installed the new turf at TCF and in the practice facility....coincidence?
 

Word said:
I've also noticed that I've been gaining weight and losing hair ever since they installed the new turf at TCF and in the practice facility....coincidence?
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Now that theres funny! Well done!
 

Word said:
I've also noticed that I've been gaining weight and losing hair ever since they installed the new turf at TCF and in the practice facility....coincidence?
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You and PJF...what more proof do we need?
 

Is Souhan still fit? Really fit?


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Gophers_4life said:
No one has that old style carpet turf, that used to be in the old dome, anymore. Hadn’t been that way for a while.

Modern turf is the same thing as natural grass now. Probably better.
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100% disagree.
 

theTurning said:
There’s no reason the Bank shouldn’t have a grass field.
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I like natural grass better too but they problem you can run into problems late in the year in cold weather places. If you have a very wet game towards the end of the year and really tear up the field, then it gets cold, it can be like playing on concrete.
 

GophersInIowa said:
I like natural grass better too but they problem you can run into problems late in the year in cold weather places. If you have a very wet game towards the end of the year and really tear up the field, then it gets cold, it can be like playing on concrete.
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I know the reason high schools like turf is because you don't have to maintain it, and it can be used non-stop. You can have any team practicing on it without worry if they will ruin the field. A lot of natural grass varsity stadium fields are saved for only varsity games. With turf you can use it for gym class, 9th grade, JV games, marching band practice, etc. It also lets you use the field earlier in the spring than you would be able to on natural grass.

The U has used our field for concerts and hosting the MN United. Not sure if they are using it much for other things, but that would be a big advantage of turf for the U. Not to mention they don't have to pay groundskeepers to maintain it.

Northwestern's natural grass field can be pretty torn up by mid-way through the season.
 

Word said:
I know the reason high schools like turf is because you don't have to maintain it, and it can be used non-stop. You can have any team practicing on it without worry if they will ruin the field. A lot of natural grass varsity stadium fields are saved for only varsity games. With turf you can use it for gym class, 9th grade, JV games, marching band practice, etc. It also lets you use the field earlier in the spring than you would be able to on natural grass.

The U has used our field for concerts and hosting the MN United. Not sure if they are using it much for other things, but that would be a big advantage of turf for the U. Not to mention they don't have to pay groundskeepers to maintain it.

Northwestern's natural grass field can be pretty torn up by mid-way through the season.
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And then they grow it like a forest to try to keep it from getting too torn up. Gets crazy.
 

Didn't Iowa have a problem with their Running Backs getting injured a few years ago. Don't seem to hear about it now. Changes made to deal with this or did it just get better for some reason?
 

happygophersgolucky said:
Food for ACL thought. The Brooks (1st and 2nd), Smith, and Williamson RB ACL injuries all happened within the first 13? months of the team using the Larson Performance Center practice field. Granted the Smith and 2nd Brooks injury were in games. However, ACL's can be weakened on practice fields and finally torn on game fields. The 2nd Brooks injury was on the synthetic turf at TCF. Not sure of where Smith's injury occurred or the type of turf. How many coincidences are needed before patterns are taken seriously? To me, 4 serious similar injuries with factors in common in roughly a year at one position on one team is more than enough. It is too many.

For indoor practices, put the few precious RB's remaining in standard, no cleats Nike's now. Do not wait for time consuming discussions, arguments, excuses, coverups, ad nauseam.

Outdoor practice or games on synthetic turf may require the smallest feasible cleats (soccer style boots?) to reduce the Smith and 2nd Brooks type injuries.
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If you're suggesting that Minnesota RBs tear ACL's more often than other RBs, then you're going to have to provide that data. Regardless, that's a pretty small data set. Not something to ignore, but not something to raise tons of alarm bells (yet) either.
 

I've had 6 knee surgeries. Every injury occurred on natural grass. Probably played 100 soccer matches on turf, no injury aside from some carpet burns. Everyone has different experiences. ****ty footing on real grass can be bad. Its also harder (concussions) when its cold. Nothing is a perfect surface, injuries happen.
 

#2Gopher said:
Didn't Iowa have a problem with their Running Backs getting injured a few years ago. Don't seem to hear about it now. Changes made to deal with this or did it just get better for some reason?
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Their RBs got injured all the time, but I think it was just an amazing streak of bad luck.
 


cncmin said:
If you're suggesting that Minnesota RBs tear ACL's more often than other RBs, then you're going to have to provide that data. Regardless, that's a pretty small data set. Not something to ignore, but not something to raise tons of alarm bells (yet) either.
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Actually I am raising it as a possibility. What I am suggesting is that some simple, common sense, easily implemented, non-irreversable changes be considered while longer term solutions are carefully considered. Nothing too radical from a Gopher alum.

Considering the need for more data. As a "U" trained scientist with a statistical background, I couldn't agree more.To determine if anything connected to the surface at the Larson Performance Center may be involved, we also need the record of ACL injuries (tears and sprains) when the old field house was used for FB practices. Then the probability of a causative effect vs. very bad luck can be determined.

A quick Google search found some interesting info. An evaluation presented at a 2013 American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons Annual Meeting found that “The rate of ACL injury in NCAA football is significantly greater on third-generation artifical (sic) turf”.

https://www.healio.com/orthopedics/...rs-higher-on-third-generation-artificial-turf

The discussion of the "third generation" artificial turf was particularly interesting. At least as of 2008-2009 season which was last included in this study, "surfaces with higher amounts of artificial fill, including sand and rubber components or third-generation types of turf, had higher levels of injuries in comparison to the first- and second-generation types of turf that typically have a shorter blade length." Advances in synthetic athletic turf technology thru 2008 appeared to be heading in the wrong direction.

What generation turf are we dealing with? What type of fill? Any data or studies?

The Miami Dolphins apparently took discussions of fill technology seriously, as they should. They have recently converted to an organic based fill system with their previous artificial surface.
 
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