STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

I was told last week by three different St. Thomas athletes in lower profile sports that their coaches believe getting the boot from the MIAC is inevitable, but for them not to worry since the transition would not come until after they graduate. Their understanding is that only St. John's and St. Ben's are on board for sure in keeping UST in. Most interesting point they made was the attractiveness of St. Thomas for D-III athletes is the limited travel time because of the proximity of the other schools. All of them said they might rethink playing college sports if they had what they considered to be constant burdensome road trips. This sounds like young people who are academics first and sports a distant second, which is what D-III is supposed to be.

I do find the whole thing quite petty. Does anyone really think having games on 'CCO is a massive recruiting advantage? I would agree that their enrollment and location do give them an advantage, but if you kick them out, that advantage will go somewhere else. As a few others have said, I think the MIAC hurts itself if it does this. I am virtually certain few if anyone in decision making authority at St. Thomas wants this to happen and have to deal with a transition.
 

I would agree that their enrollment and location do give them an advantage, but if you kick them out, that advantage will go somewhere else. As a few others have said, I think the MIAC hurts itself if it does this.

That's the opposite of how the presidents at St Olaf, etc. look at it.

Think about this: what good, when you really get down to it, does it do schools like St Olaf, Carleton, Augsburg, Hamline, and MAC, to have St Thomas win the conference by a wide margin and then do well in the national playoffs? What good do those schools obtain by association, via the MIAC brand? Does the MIAC brand itself really gain that much benefit?


So I think they see it more like: time to let other schools have their turn winning the conference, for a change, and that St Thomas should go elsewhere.
 

That's the opposite of how the presidents at St Olaf, etc. look at it.

Think about this: what good, when you really get down to it, does it do schools like St Olaf, Carleton, Augsburg, Hamline, and MAC, to have St Thomas win the conference by a wide margin and then do well in the national playoffs? What good do those schools obtain by association, via the MIAC brand? Does the MIAC brand itself really gain that much benefit?


So I think they see it more like: time to let other schools have their turn winning the conference, for a change, and that St Thomas should go elsewhere.

One impact of booting St Thomas as it relates to basketball specifically is that likely only the MIAC Champ will go to the NCAA Tourney. At large bids are pretty tough to get (only 21) and the MIAC has even gotten multiple a few times.

On the other hand eliminating St Thomas, greatly increases the odds for getting the auto-bid.

Otherwise, I pretty much agree with your MIAC brand stuff.
 

That's the opposite of how the presidents at St Olaf, etc. look at it.

Think about this: what good, when you really get down to it, does it do schools like St Olaf, Carleton, Augsburg, Hamline, and MAC, to have St Thomas win the conference by a wide margin and then do well in the national playoffs? What good do those schools obtain by association, via the MIAC brand? Does the MIAC brand itself really gain that much benefit?


So I think they see it more like: time to let other schools have their turn winning the conference, for a change, and that St Thomas should go elsewhere.

I think this is probably fairly accurate to how they think, but honestly will this hurt UST as a university? I mean if it does cause their to be a down swing in athletics at UST does it affect the perception of the University and affect who will attend their? I mean if we are doing this under the guise of values, it doesn't really make sense to me to hand a few conference titles to a few teams that want to feel good, while potentially hurting another university.
 

I think this is probably fairly accurate to how they think, but honestly will this hurt UST as a university? I mean if it does cause their to be a down swing in athletics at UST does it affect the perception of the University and affect who will attend their? I mean if we are doing this under the guise of values, it doesn't really make sense to me to hand a few conference titles to a few teams that want to feel good, while potentially hurting another university.

I highly doubt it hurts St. Thomas much as an institution if they get booted, unless they go all out to D-1 and it ends up really bad. Perpetually losing teams are embarrassments to even high quality academic schools. I can assure you, the general student population not playing a sport doesn't care about sports at St. Thomas. They could lose some good students who are looking for D-III sports, but it would not spill into the rest of the university. The "pain" will be the transition to a new conference and potentially new level that sucks resources out of other activities.
 


I would say that having the St. Thomas games broadcast on a 50,000 watt radio station that covers a big chunk of MN would normally be seen as an advantage.

Now, having Dave Lee doing the play-by-play..........that is a different story.

On the bigger picture, the issue for Augsburg, St Olaf and other schools of that caliber is that they get decent athletes, but they don't get the game-breakers, or the high-level D1 and DII transfers like St. Thomas. Augsburg was competitive for a couple years when they had a really good athlete at QB running the offense. he graduated, and the team took a big step backwards because they didn't have a comparable athlete to plug into that spot. AT St. Thomas, they graduate a good athlete, and they've got another one waiting in the wings to fill the spot.
 

D3 conference membership is usually driven by academic rankings.

Schools generally want to associate with colleges that have higher or similar rankings, not lower.

Schools definitely want to avoid being the best-rated college in the conference. It hurts their brand.

UST's reputation is below average for the MIAC. From the perspective of better schools, UST adds nothing that they care about.
 
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I highly doubt it hurts St. Thomas much as an institution if they get booted, unless they go all out to D-1 and it ends up really bad. Perpetually losing teams are embarrassments to even high quality academic schools. I can assure you, the general student population not playing a sport doesn't care about sports at St. Thomas. They could lose some good students who are looking for D-III sports, but it would not spill into the rest of the university. The "pain" will be the transition to a new conference and potentially new level that sucks resources out of other activities.

ST students care, in great numbers, about ToJo, as a social event. That singular thing, I can assure.
 

I highly doubt it hurts St. Thomas much as an institution if they get booted, unless they go all out to D-1 and it ends up really bad. Perpetually losing teams are embarrassments to even high quality academic schools. I can assure you, the general student population not playing a sport doesn't care about sports at St. Thomas. They could lose some good students who are looking for D-III sports, but it would not spill into the rest of the university. The "pain" will be the transition to a new conference and potentially new level that sucks resources out of other activities.

I'm not sure how you know it wouldn't negatively affect the University in any ways? Just saying if they did get booted out of the MIAC it probably wouldn't help them in anyway. If it changes the university and who it attracts and how many it attracts (applicants/enrollees), it couldn't negatively affect them?
 



D3 conference membership is usually driven by academic rankings.

Schools generally want to associate with colleges that have higher or similar rankings, not lower.

Schools definitely want to avoid being the best-rated college in the conference. It hurts their brand.

UST's reputation is below average for the MIAC. From the perspective of better schools, UST adds nothing that they care about.

I'm not a Tommie and not going to defend them with gusto, but UST is the only nationally ranked university in the MIAC and its freshman entrance scores are only below Carleton, Mac and St. Olaf (barely). They are definitely above the conference average nowadays.
 

I'm not a Tommie and not going to defend them with gusto, but UST is the only nationally ranked university in the MIAC and its freshman entrance scores are only below Carleton, Mac and St. Olaf (barely). They are definitely above the conference average nowadays.

They are the only school in the MIAC that counts as a "National University" for rankings purposes. The others all count as either National Liberal Arts Colleges or Regional Universities. That gets to part of the issue that some of the other conference members have with them.

UST is a pretty average MIAC institution in terms of academic prestige. A good way above the worst, but well below the best.

Carleton is the undisputed top dog
Mac is a clear 2nd
Olaf a clear third
Next tier is St. John's, St. Ben's, and Gustavus
Next tier is St. Thomas, Concordia, and maybe Hamline
Next tier is Bethel, St. Kate's, and Augsburg
St. Mary's bringing up the rear.

Basically what I'm saying is I don't think admissions standards and school rankings are playing much of a role in this little coup.
 

The brainy bunch top three in particular, I think want ST out. It’s too big, and cares and spends too much on athletics. It’s a metro school for private school rich kids who want to party and don’t want to go to the U.
 

ST students care, in great numbers, about ToJo, as a social event. That singular thing, I can assure.

I also agree that UST has a certain view by many that attracts certain students that maybe some (not all) of the other MIAC schools don't. I just feel like having a stud athletics program definitely changes the way people perceive your school. Not saying its a view that is rooted in logic but one I think can exist.

See post above as well
 



MIAC Football Champs By Year:

Year Champion
1920 Hamline
1921 Hamline
1922 St. Olaf
St. Thomas
1923 St. Olaf
1924 Carleton
1925 Macalester
1926 Gustavus
1927 Gustavus
1928 Augsburg
St. Mary’s
1929 St. Thomas
1930 St. Olaf
St. Thomas
1931 Concordia
1932 St. John’s
1933 Gustavus
1934 Concordia
1935 Gustavus
St. John’s
St. Olaf
1936 Gustavus
St. John’s
1937 Gustavus
1938 St. John’s
1939 St. Thomas
1940 Gustavus
1941 St. Thomas
1942 Concordia
St. Thomas
1943 No Champion
1944 No Champion
1945 Gustavus
1946 Gustavus
1947 Macalester
St. Thomas
1948 St. Thomas
1949 St. Thomas
1950 Gustavus
1951 Gustavus
1952 Concordia
Gustavus
1953 Gustavus
St. John's
1954 Gustavus
1955 Gustavus
1956 St. Thomas
1957 Concordia
1958 Gustavus
1959 Gustavus
1960 UM-Duluth
1961 UM-Duluth
1962 St. John's
1963 St. John's
1964 Concordia
1965 St. John's
1966 Hamline
1967 Gustavus
1968 Gustavus
1969 Concordia
1970 Concordia
1971 Gustavus
St. John's
1972 Gustavus
1973 UM-Duluth
St. Thomas
1974 Concordia
St. John's
1975 St. John's
1976 St. John's
1977 St. John's
1978 Concordia
St. Olaf
1979 Concordia
St. John's
St. Olaf
St. Thomas
1980 Concordia
1981 Concordia
1982 St. John's
1983 St. Thomas
1984 Hamline
1985 St. John's
1986 Concordia
1987 Gustavus
1988 Concordia
Hamline
1989 St. John's
1990 Concordia
St. Thomas
1991 St. John's
1992 Carleton
1993 St. John's
1994 St. John's
1995 Concordia
St. John's
1996 St. John's
1997 Augsburg
1998 St. John's
1999 St. John's
2000 Bethel
2001 Bethel
St. John's
2002 St. John's
2003 St. John's
2004 Concordia
2005 St. John's
2006 Bethel
St. John's
2007 Bethel
2008 St. John's
2008 Caruso becomes Tommie Head Coach
2009 St. John's
2010 St. Thomas
2011 St. Thomas
2012 St. Thomas
2013 Bethel
2014 Saint John's
2015 St. Thomas
2016 St. Thomas
2017 St. Thomas
2018 Saint John's
Saint John's had strung some two or three year runs, but Bethel, Concordia, Gustavus, Hamline, and Augsburg had their turns when good Johnnie classes graduate. Since 2010, on the other hand St. Thomas dominated MIAC Football being champs 6 times while Saint John's twice, and Bethel once. Something definitely has changed at St. Thomas that put them out of the MIAC mold at least in football.
 
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Saint Thomas dominates basketball.

College/No. Championships/Last Title

01. St. Thomas, 32, 2018-2019
02. Hamline, 19, 1959-1960
03. Gustavus, 17, 2011-2012
04. Augsburg, 13, 1998-1999
05. Saint John's, 8, 2017-2018
06. Carleton, 5, 2010-2011
07. UMD, 4, 1961-1962 (No longer in MIAC)
08. St. Olaf, 3, 1988-1989
09. Concordia, 3, 1982-1983
10. Macalester, 2, 1980-1981
11. St. Mary's, 2, 1939-1940
12. Bethel, 1, 2016-2017

St. Thomas has always been dominant in basketball. Since 1988-1989, they have been champion 22 times. Since 2001-2002, they have been champions 15 times.
 


MIAC Core Values... MIAC MISSION STATEMENT
The Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference strives to guide, govern and support fair and equitable athletic competition and promote student-athlete well-being among its members. The Conference recognizes and celebrates the important contribution competitive athletics can make to the quality of an education experienced in a context in which the academic program is paramount.

Somewhere along the way either by perception or reality, St. Thomas appears to be out of "the MIAC mold". They are the victim of their own successes.

https://www.miacathletics.com/about/index
 

I'm not a Tommie and not going to defend them with gusto, but UST is the only nationally ranked university in the MIAC and its freshman entrance scores are only below Carleton, Mac and St. Olaf (barely). They are definitely above the conference average nowadays.

This is a different ranking category.

Macalaster, Carelton, and St. Olaf want nothing to do with this. The rest of the conference drags them down, but they have nowhere else to go. Concordia and Gustavus, the next tier down, benefit from their athletic affiliation with these schools.
 

Don’t personally believe the MIAC is out to get St Thomas. UST asked to be kicked out IMHO to move up and galvanize their fans for a move and the MIAC is obliging as the courteous admin thing to do.

What could a UST hockey team, which can’t play DII, do at DI? They could rival Duluth and St Cloud soon.

UST has been seen as a Marquette in waiting by Sid Hartman. Just 20 years to late.

DII isn’t good enough for UST, but they must pass through it for 8 years by rule to reach DI in everything.
 

This is a different ranking category.

Macalaster, Carelton, and St. Olaf want nothing to do with this. The rest of the conference drags them down, but they have nowhere else to go. Concordia and Gustavus, the next tier down, benefit from their athletic affiliation with these schools.

This is probably spot on. If Mac, Carleton and St. Olaf could belong to their own Midwest based NESCAC type conference of top-ranked old-school liberal arts colleges, they would.
 


This is probably spot on. If Mac, Carleton and St. Olaf could belong to their own Midwest based NESCAC type conference of top-ranked old-school liberal arts colleges, they would.

Yep, St Thomas and some of the other MIAC schools are willing to accept a different type of student-athlete, and provide a whole lot more merit aid, than these three schools are willing to do. This shows up the most in a sport like football.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

This is bad for Gopher sports. We will have all the recruits we passed on beating us in Basketball, Football, Hockey, volleyball, baseball, softball et al. We have be notoriously lazy about recruiting and this would just amplify our recruiting ineptitude.

We need to up our recruiting game significantly. Recruiting three star players will be awful, not just mediocre.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

MIAC Football Champs By Year:

Year Champion
1920 Hamline
1921 Hamline
1922 St. Olaf
St. Thomas
1923 St. Olaf
1924 Carleton
1925 Macalester
1926 Gustavus
1927 Gustavus
1928 Augsburg
St. Mary’s
1929 St. Thomas
1930 St. Olaf
St. Thomas
1931 Concordia
1932 St. John’s
1933 Gustavus
1934 Concordia
1935 Gustavus
St. John’s
St. Olaf
1936 Gustavus
St. John’s
1937 Gustavus
1938 St. John’s
1939 St. Thomas
1940 Gustavus
1941 St. Thomas
1942 Concordia
St. Thomas
1943 No Champion
1944 No Champion
1945 Gustavus
1946 Gustavus
1947 Macalester
St. Thomas
1948 St. Thomas
1949 St. Thomas
1950 Gustavus
1951 Gustavus
1952 Concordia
Gustavus
1953 Gustavus
St. John's
1954 Gustavus
1955 Gustavus
1956 St. Thomas
1957 Concordia
1958 Gustavus
1959 Gustavus
1960 UM-Duluth
1961 UM-Duluth
1962 St. John's
1963 St. John's
1964 Concordia
1965 St. John's
1966 Hamline
1967 Gustavus
1968 Gustavus
1969 Concordia
1970 Concordia
1971 Gustavus
St. John's
1972 Gustavus
1973 UM-Duluth
St. Thomas
1974 Concordia
St. John's
1975 St. John's
1976 St. John's
1977 St. John's
1978 Concordia
St. Olaf
1979 Concordia
St. John's
St. Olaf
St. Thomas
1980 Concordia
1981 Concordia
1982 St. John's
1983 St. Thomas
1984 Hamline
1985 St. John's
1986 Concordia
1987 Gustavus
1988 Concordia
Hamline
1989 St. John's
1990 Concordia
St. Thomas
1991 St. John's
1992 Carleton
1993 St. John's
1994 St. John's
1995 Concordia
St. John's
1996 St. John's
1997 Augsburg
1998 St. John's
1999 St. John's
2000 Bethel
2001 Bethel
St. John's
2002 St. John's
2003 St. John's
2004 Concordia
2005 St. John's
2006 Bethel
St. John's
2007 Bethel
2008 St. John's
2008 Caruso becomes Tommie Head Coach
2009 St. John's
2010 St. Thomas
2011 St. Thomas
2012 St. Thomas
2013 Bethel
2014 Saint John's
2015 St. Thomas
2016 St. Thomas
2017 St. Thomas
2018 Saint John's
Saint John's had strung some two or three year runs, but Bethel, Concordia, Gustavus, Hamline, and Augsburg had their turns when good Johnnie classes graduate. Since 2010, on the other hand St. Thomas dominated MIAC Football being champs 6 times while Saint John's twice, and Bethel once. Something definitely has changed at St. Thomas that put them out of the MIAC mold at least in football.

The balance in football was definitely tipped in St. Thomas' favor since the hire of Glenn Caruso. They've been the MIAC Champions six out of the last ten years. They also dominated the Durenburger All Sports Trophy in both men's and women's sports.Say what you want - perception or reality to others in the MIAC they feel that Saint Thomas has broken out of the MIAC mold.

If you look at the MIAC football title history before 2010, Saint John's had a dominant stretch of three years in the 1970s. But, if you look at the pattern, other schools had stepped up and won the MIAC title on the years that Saint John's lost their good classes through graduation.
 

St Thomas will resign their MIAC membership and say they don’t want the indignity of being expelled. The MIAC wouldn’t have expelled UST anyway, but this way UST admin can say they were forced out.

The St Thomas alumni will now be energized for a DII and later DI move.

St Thomas will soon be a DI hockey power as is Duluth and St Cloud. They just need to expand seating at their Mendota Heights arena to the other side.

UST will probably also add lacrosse and be the first DI men’s or women’s program in the state.

UST join the Northern Sun in 2021 and later a DI conference (except hockey) in 2029.
 

This is bad for Gopher sports. We will have all the recruits we passed on beating us in Basketball, Football, Hockey, volleyball, baseball, softball et al. We have be notoriously lazy about recruiting and this would just amplify our recruiting ineptitude.

We need to up our recruiting game significantly. Recruiting three star players will be awful, not just mediocre.

Among many stupid things you say, this is monumentally idiotic.
 

St Thomas will resign their MIAC membership and say they don’t want the indignity of being expelled. The MIAC wouldn’t have expelled UST anyway, but this way UST admin can say they were forced out.

The St Thomas alumni will now be energized for a DII and later DI move.

St Thomas will soon be a DI hockey power as is Duluth and St Cloud. They just need to expand seating at their Mendota Heights arena to the other side.

UST will probably also add lacrosse and be the first DI men’s or women’s program in the state.

UST join the Northern Sun in 2021 and later a DI conference (except hockey) in 2029.

I have no idea about all this ..... but I’m going to take a guess that the stay of execution on giving them the boot was a courtesy to them for being a founding member of the league, and to give them more time to figure out logistics for what they’re going to do next.
 

I have no idea about all this ..... but I’m going to take a guess that the stay of execution on giving them the boot was a courtesy to them for being a founding member of the league, and to give them more time to figure out logistics for what they’re going to do next.

They didn’t have the votes to kick them out.
There is no stay of execution.

This is a pardon of execution
 

LOL some guy made a promise to stop posting/trolling in the football forum version of this thread, so instead he comes here.
 

LOL some guy made a promise to stop posting/trolling in the football forum version of this thread, so instead he comes here.

I said I wouldn’t post until something happened with the vote.
The vote was canceled.


I could say I told you so. But I won’t. Maybe they will have the votes in two months or a month.
 




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