STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

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per Shooter:

The way it looks now, Concordia College of Moorhead could be the deciding vote on whether St. Thomas is expelled from the NCAA Division III Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference. Nine votes from the league’s 13 school presidents are required for expulsion. A vote is expected next month.

Nobody’s talking, but the guess here is that St. Olaf, Carleton, Hamline, Augsburg, Gustavus Adolphus, Macalester, St. Catherine and St. Mary’s would favor ousting St. Thomas. Concordia is thought to be uncommitted.

Insides say nearly all the conference’s coaches want St. Thomas to remain — it’s the school presidents who want the Tommies out.

Meanwhile, perhaps ironically for St. Thomas, Augustana is leaving the Division II Northern Sun Intercollegiate Conference, which includes nine of its members from Minnesota. St. Thomas insists, though, that it values Division III ideals.

In football in the Northern Sun, St. Thomas might finish among the top half-dozen teams, behind Minnesota State, Minnesota Duluth, Winona State, St. Cloud State and Bemidji State.

https://www.twincities.com/2019/04/20/charley-walters-vikings-to-upgrade-o-line/

Go Gophers!!
 


The destination for st Thomas is Divison I. The DII move which will be announced shortly is only temporary until a DI move is allowed after 8+ years.

DI football will be non scholarship, not big time. They will eventually play against Drake and Valpo in football. The NSIC has very weak teams at the bottom, like Mary, Minot St, SW Minn, Upper Iowa and Crookston, which UST would probably beat now.

But hockey can go DI as soon the the DII move is announced. Any Minnesota school can surpasee the Goohers now, because of the conference situation. St Thomas just needs to add seating to their other side to their arena in Mendota Heights.

Basketball, hockey, soccer and lacrosse will likely be their other sports of emphasis eventually, not fb.
 

Siouxfan said:
The destination for st Thomas is Divison I. The DII move which will be announced shortly is only temporary until a DI move is allowed after 8+ years.

DI football will be non scholarship, not big time. They will eventually play against Drake and Valpo in football. The NSIC has very weak teams at the bottom, like Mary, Minot St, SW Minn, Upper Iowa and Crookston, which UST would probably beat now.

But hockey can go DI as soon the the DII move is announced. Any Minnesota school can surpasee the Goohers now, because of the conference situation. St Thomas just needs to add seating to their other side to their arena in Mendota Heights.

Basketball, hockey, soccer and lacrosse will likely be their other sports of emphasis eventually, not fb.
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Hockey is the easy cut if they move up a division.
 

Siouxfan said:
The destination for st Thomas is Divison I. The DII move which will be announced shortly is only temporary until a DI move is allowed after 8+ years.

DI football will be non scholarship, not big time. They will eventually play against Drake and Valpo in football. The NSIC has very weak teams at the bottom, like Mary, Minot St, SW Minn, Upper Iowa and Crookston, which UST would probably beat now.

But hockey can go DI as soon the the DII move is announced. Any Minnesota school can surpasee the Goohers now, because of the conference situation. St Thomas just needs to add seating to their other side to their arena in Mendota Heights.

Basketball, hockey, soccer and lacrosse will likely be their other sports of emphasis eventually, not fb.
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AO54 said:
Hockey is the easy cut if they move up a division.
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Wouldn't the ACHA also be an option for a college hockey team without a home? I'm not a hockey aficionado, so am just throwing it out there. I thought that league was growing very rapidly and was cool collection of big named and smaller schools.
 


St Thomas admin are probably gunning for DI hockey, as DII schools maintain the right to go DI in that sport. The WCHA would likely take them right away.

The ACHA would be less than what they have now.

In a few short years, UST could beat the zgophers as St. Cloud, Duluth and Mankato have done.

A UST-Gopher series could grow into something big.
 

Siouxfan said:
The destination for st Thomas is Divison I. The DII move which will be announced shortly is only temporary until a DI move is allowed after 8+ years.

DI football will be non scholarship, not big time. They will eventually play against Drake and Valpo in football. The NSIC has very weak teams at the bottom, like Mary, Minot St, SW Minn, Upper Iowa and Crookston, which UST would probably beat now.

But hockey can go DI as soon the the DII move is announced. Any Minnesota school can surpasee the Goohers now, because of the conference situation. St Thomas just needs to add seating to their other side to their arena in Mendota Heights.

Basketball, hockey, soccer and lacrosse will likely be their other sports of emphasis eventually, not fb.
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You have absolutely zero clue what you are talking about
 


Siouxfan said:
The destination for st Thomas is Divison I. The DII move which will be announced shortly is only temporary until a DI move is allowed after 8+ years.

DI football will be non scholarship, not big time. They will eventually play against Drake and Valpo in football. The NSIC has very weak teams at the bottom, like Mary, Minot St, SW Minn, Upper Iowa and Crookston, which UST would probably beat now.

But hockey can go DI as soon the the DII move is announced. Any Minnesota school can surpasee the Goohers now, because of the conference situation. St Thomas just needs to add seating to their other side to their arena in Mendota Heights.

Basketball, hockey, soccer and lacrosse will likely be their other sports of emphasis eventually, not fb.
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It's the high schools rink, not the college. Also there's literally no room in their to add bleachers. Guessing UST would put money into Aldrich arena or play at the X. Maybe the Coliseum becomes an option, though they stopped playing hockey there Also, UST will struggle if they're an Independent or forced to join Atlantic Hockey, WCHA won't let them in, without a new rink

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This is all ridiculous. Were are they going to get the money to support athletics?

And like someone else said, there are many good athletes that just want to play DIII sports that don’t dominate their lives. They know that they have to get a degree for work and it is just a chance to continue to play sports.


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alchemy2u said:
This is all ridiculous. Were are they going to get the money to support athletics?

And like someone else said, there are many good athletes that just want to play DIII sports that don’t dominate their lives. They know that they have to get a degree for work and it is just a chance to continue to play sports.


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The MIAC isn’t evaporating. There will still be plenty of those DIII schools for those athletes. Including MAC back in the MIAC for football.


Good for ST, accepting the new challenge and finally pursuing the dream of a catholic/private school in the Twin Cities market with DI athletics. Hopefully that will work out for them. DII a good first step.


Will be interesting to see how they handle football. Will it continue to be non-scholarship, since there are no scholly minimums in DII or the NSun conf? DI FCS also no minimums, but also very difficult to compete against rosters with 60+ scholly athletes. The alternative is the non-scholarship Pioneer League, whose champion gets an auto-birth to the playoff. Would also get to play local-ish Dakota schools and N Iowa as non-conf games I’m sure.
 
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The big question for me is: does ToJo go the way of Concordia (Moorhead) vs Moorhead State?
 

Anybody who thinks STU wouldn’t be an upper tier NSIC team is trippin. They would be an average to slightly above average D1 FCS team right now as well.


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A nonymous said:
Anybody who thinks STU wouldn’t be an upper tier NSIC team is trippin. They would be an average to slightly above average D1 FCS team right now as well.


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Hahahaha
 

Siouxfan said:
According to Reusse, the anti UST faction in the MIAC has the required 9 of the 13 votes needed to expel UST. UST will move up to DII, just as their admin planned. UST hockey can move up to DI now the same time. UST needed to get the pro DIII people behind their move, so they did a cunning maneuver in the MIAC.

I thought this was part of the tweet from Reusse, but I see it's from you. Regardless, having another D1 program down the road would be great.

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A nonymous said:
Anybody who thinks STU wouldn’t be an upper tier NSIC team is trippin. They would be an average to slightly above average D1 FCS team right now as well.


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They would win the DIII national title every single year if that were true. They are a good DIII program, a top 10, maybe top 5 program in the country but they lost to St. John's this year. They didn't even win the MIAC. They are far from invincible.
 

die hard gopher said:
They would win the DIII national title every single year if that were true. They are a good DIII program, a top 10, maybe top 5 program in the country but they lost to St. John's this year. They didn't even win the MIAC. They are far from invincible.
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They did not even finish Runner-Up.
 

A nonymous said:
Anybody who thinks STU wouldn’t be an upper tier NSIC team is trippin. They would be an average to slightly above average D1 FCS team right now as well.


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die hard gopher said:
They would win the DIII national title every single year if that were true. They are a good DIII program, a top 10, maybe top 5 program in the country but they lost to St. John's this year. They didn't even win the MIAC. They are far from invincible.
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Being "invincible" and an "upper tier NSIC team" are not close to the same thing. A good portion of the NSIC is terrible. St. Thomas would compete immediately at the top in several women's sports (basketball, softball, etc.) and several men's sports that don't have high scholarship numbers. Football and men's basketball would be top half but likely a step behind MSU, Winona and UMD until a handful of positions could be bolstered with scholarships; although UST is already usually able to get some former D1 players to play down at D3. As an example, Concordia competed head to head with MSU Moorhead (when Moorhead was good) for decades before that series ended in the 2000s.
 
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MinnGopher said:
Hahahaha
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die hard gopher said:
They would win the DIII national title every single year if that were true. They are a good DIII program, a top 10, maybe top 5 program in the country but they lost to St. John's this year. They didn't even win the MIAC. They are far from invincible.
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Ope3 said:
They did not even finish Runner-Up.
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So one year makes the program? What about other recent years when they made the Stagg bowl and were competitive with UMU? UMU would absolutely be a solid FCS team - and STU is just a small notch below UMU. Top tier D3 programs like UMU, UWW, UMHB, and UST would absolutely be competitive FCS football programs. No question. There's not such a huge separation between upper level D3, D2, and mid tier FCS programs as you would think.

There's not much data to go off of with head to head matchups between divisions but there is some.
in 2014, D3 top-5ish Wesley college (a historically very good program who at the time had Joe Callahan who spent some time on the GB Packers 53 man roster), lost by only 5 points @ Charlotte, who was FCS at the time and went 5-7 that year against a TOUGH FCS schedule then moved to freaking C-USA in 2015. UMU ended up defeating Wesley 70-21 in the D3 semifinals that year. Pretty confident in saying that UMU would lay waste to that average FCS Charlotte team.

UWW also won a handful of games in the past few years against Morningside College, which is arguably the top NAIA football program. It is well known that NAIA is similar to D2 in level of competitiveness, and that top 5-10 NAIA programs are comparable in talent to the top 25ish D2 programs. Thus, UWW would be in this tier of high level D2 as well. And high level D2 is absolutely comparable at least to average FCS programs. While UWW had their turn as the absolute D3 power, they have fallen back to earth a bit after their coach left for Buffalo. UST is on a very similar level as UWW. To claim that UST would not be a competitive D2 program and at least an average FCS program is just not accurate. And if you don't actually follow D3 sports you don't know what you are talking about anyway.
 
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A nonymous said:
It is well known that NAIA is similar to D2 in level of competitiveness, and that top 5-10 NAIA programs are comparable in talent to the top 25ish D2 programs.
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Seriously where are you getting this from. Similar to D3 yes. Not to D2.
 

Seriously! Where is STU going to come up with the money to support a team at a higher level?

The school has grown because of their MBA program, but working professionals that spent a few half days for a year or two don't feel any real allegiance to the school. They are only on campus, or a remote classroom, for a few hours a week.
 

alchemy2u said:
Seriously! Where is STU going to come up with the money to support a team at a higher level?

The school has grown because of their MBA program, but working professionals that spent a few half days for a year or two don't feel any real allegiance to the school. They are only on campus, or a remote classroom, for a few hours a week.
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Famous last words. The school has a healthy alumni base besides their MBA program.

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alchemy2u said:
Seriously! Where is STU going to come up with the money to support a team at a higher level?

The school has grown because of their MBA program, but working professionals that spent a few half days for a year or two don't feel any real allegiance to the school. They are only on campus, or a remote classroom, for a few hours a week.
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Yes. Very little alumni support from the grad student side of the aisle. Odd that so few people recognize that. There may be a few people connected to UST who believe getting D-1 sports is part of an overall plan to becoming a "great urban university" but I suspect very few. Some of them may have a pile of money, but it's going to take a lot more than a few sports oriented donors to go D-1. If they try it, I predict major internal dissension led by underpaid faculty.
 

Providence is a relative pauper compared to UST in endowment and enrollment.

Where does Providence get finances for national championship hockey and the Big East?

Loyola is slightly bigger than UST in both, but they have made major steps lately.
 

A nonymous said:
So one year makes the program? What about other recent years when they made the Stagg bowl and were competitive with UMU? UMU would absolutely be a solid FCS team - and STU is just a small notch below UMU. Top tier D3 programs like UMU, UWW, UMHB, and UST would absolutely be competitive FCS football programs. No question. There's not such a huge separation between upper level D3, D2, and mid tier FCS programs as you would think.

There's not much data to go off of with head to head matchups between divisions but there is some.
in 2014, D3 top-5ish Wesley college (a historically very good program who at the time had Joe Callahan who spent some time on the GB Packers 53 man roster), lost by only 5 points @ Charlotte, who was FCS at the time and went 5-7 that year against a TOUGH FCS schedule then moved to freaking C-USA in 2015. UMU ended up defeating Wesley 70-21 in the D3 semifinals that year. Pretty confident in saying that UMU would lay waste to that average FCS Charlotte team.

UWW also won a handful of games in the past few years against Morningside College, which is arguably the top NAIA football program. It is well known that NAIA is similar to D2 in level of competitiveness, and that top 5-10 NAIA programs are comparable in talent to the top 25ish D2 programs. Thus, UWW would be in this tier of high level D2 as well. And high level D2 is absolutely comparable at least to average FCS programs. While UWW had their turn as the absolute D3 power, they have fallen back to earth a bit after their coach left for Buffalo. UST is on a very similar level as UWW. To claim that UST would not be a competitive D2 program and at least an average FCS program is just not accurate. And if you don't actually follow D3 sports you don't know what you are talking about anyway.
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Thats not true at all. The best DIII, or UST and SJU at least, have a few guys that were former P5 PWO's, and a few guys who had DII scholarship offers that had PWO offers from D1 schools. They will ocasionally get a guy who had an FCS offer that transferred but was buried on the depth chart. I know UST has had two guys, Jacques Perra had an offer from UND and their RB Roberts from a few years ago was a scholarship player at USD before transferring. SJU had a guy transfer from Eastern Illinois. They simply don't have the talent to compete with FCS teams.
 

alchemy2u said:
Seriously! Where is STU going to come up with the money to support a team at a higher level?

The school has grown because of their MBA program, but working professionals that spent a few half days for a year or two don't feel any real allegiance to the school. They are only on campus, or a remote classroom, for a few hours a week.
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The UST athletic department spends $4.9M not counting any financial aid for students per USDoE data.

The median NSIC athletic budget (excluding student financial aid) was lower at $4.2M, but UMD, Mankato & St. Cloud spent more at about $8-9M each mostly because of hockey. Bemidji has hockey but spends less in other sports and has fewer of them. St. Thomas, at $4.9M would have been the 6th highest budget in the NSIC. To get UST to a $9M budget like UMD and Mankato would require bringing in another $670 in revenue per undergrad student.

Median NSIC athletic scholarship cost is $1.7M, but it's impossible to know how much incremental financial aid/scholarship costs would be for UST because financial aid expenses for D3 athletes is not reported.

$5.3 Augustana
$5.2 Bemidji
$3.4 Concordia
$4.5 MSU Moorhead
$9.3 MSU Mankato
$3.8 Minot
$4.7 Northern State
$8.2 St. Cloud
$3.6 SW MN State
$3.8 U of Mary
$3.4 UM Crookston
$9.2 UM Duluth
$3.8 U of Sioux Falls
$4.0 Upper Iowa
$3.3 Wayne State
$4.5 Winona
 
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Holy Man said:
Yes. Very little alumni support from the grad student side of the aisle. Odd that so few people recognize that. There may be a few people connected to UST who believe getting D-1 sports is part of an overall plan to becoming a "great urban university" but I suspect very few. Some of them may have a pile of money, but it's going to take a lot more than a few sports oriented donors to go D-1. If they try it, I predict major internal dissension led by underpaid faculty.
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about 40% of the students are grad students! St Thomas is well known for networking among their alumni, but there just isn't enough money to support that many teams at a higher level. They would have to cut several sports, which decreases the quality of students activity lives and would make it harder to compete for general students with the other private colleges. ST Thomas has a very good thing going right now, no need to mess it all up to stroke a few egos.
 

Creighton has a smaller undergrad than UST, but Creighton has a larger grad population. But students are about even.

Their endowments are similar, yet UST is in a much larger metro area that is a TV magnet. Conference would fight to get into the Twin Cities media, and UST would be their entree.

They will only be DII for the minimum time. But they can take hockey DI almost right away.
 

Siouxfan said:
Creighton has a smaller undergrad than UST, but Creighton has a larger grad population. But students are about even.

Their endowments are similar, yet UST is in a much larger metro area that is a TV magnet. Conference would fight to get into the Twin Cities media, and UST would be their entree.

They will only be DII for the minimum time. But they can take hockey DI almost right away.
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They could possibly go D1 for hockey and basketball, where do they play, how long before they break even.
 

jovs said:
They could possibly go D1 for hockey and basketball, where do they play, how long before they break even.
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I would say it would be close to never break even, like a substantial majority of D-1 schools now.
 

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