STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

Augsburg is now a university as well. They've had grad programs for quite a while, but I think these days everyone is adding the "university" title for marketing purposes if they can.
 

I've thought STU belongs in D1 (FCS for football) for a while now. They are building a national brand and have moved far beyond most D3 schools in that respect (with the exception of a very select few like UofChicago, MIT, etc.). Their facilities already rival many/most small D1 schools...except for football.

The average attendance for FCS football is about 8,000 per game. Excluding the St. John's game, STU is probably around 3,000-4,000 right now which would be better than most NSIC D2 rivals and similar to non-scholarship D1 Pioneer League members; but STU would need to play elsewhere or upgrade its football facilities to compete in scholarship FCS.

I have no idea what could happen to hockey as a move to D1 requires a move through D2 first (where there is no hockey).

DI hockey is a big cost, especially for women’s. North Dakota just axed their women’s program recently. You don’t need a massive arena, but I have no idea what arena ST plays in now. Maybe it’s shared with St Paul city/schools, and other MIAC schools?

Football might be able to play a couple big games at Allianz? Otherwise I don’t think Griffin stadium (at St Paul Central) is too far?
 

DI hockey is a big cost, especially for women’s. North Dakota just axed their women’s program recently. You don’t need a massive arena, but I have no idea what arena ST plays in now. Maybe it’s shared with St Paul city/schools, and other MIAC schools?

Football might be able to play a couple big games at Allianz? Otherwise I don’t think Griffin stadium (at St Paul Central) is too far?

O'Shaughnessy holds 5,000 now and has been updated, so Griffin would be a big step down. No idea if Allianz could regularly host NCAA football during pro soccer season but that would be cool and close.
 

The average attendance for FCS football is about 8,000 per game. Excluding the St. John's game, STU is probably around 3,000-4,000 right now which would be better than most NSIC D2 rivals and similar to non-scholarship D1 Pioneer League members; but STU would need to play elsewhere or upgrade its football facilities to compete in scholarship FCS. .

St. Thomas averaged 2600 attendance last season through 6 home games with a season high of 6,138 and a season low of 892. The annual Tommie/Johnnie game is a BIG exception and will pad the average attendance for St. Thomas any time they host that game (they were on the road last year, therefore the 2600 average). Outside of that, they are in line with many other MIAC schools for football attendance. Like I said earlier, the combo of large enrollement matched with remaining in D3 has made game attendance pretty low for STU comparably speaking. They would probably get a big boost and students would start caring about athletics if they jumped to a higher NCAA division.

2018 Results
vs Trinity International W 76-7
vs Hamline* W 62-0
vs UW Eau Claire W 49-0
at Concordia* W 46-7
vs Augsburg* W 73-14
at St. Johns* L 20-40
vs Carleton* W 68-0
vs St. Olaf* W 60-0
at Gustavus* W 14-13
at Bethel* L 15-21

*MIAC game
 

O'Shaughnessy holds 5,000 now and has been updated, so Griffin would be a big step down. No idea if Allianz could regularly host NCAA football during pro soccer season but that would be cool and close.

Didn't realize their on-campus stadium was that large. So yeah Griffin would make no sense. They'd actually be upper middle of the pack in the Northern Sun, with that sized stadium: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Sun_Intercollegiate_Conference#Conference_stadiums

BBall arena capacity would be at the bottom, but not unreasonable. No idea if there is room for expansion.


Allianz is already slated to host ToJo 2019 on Oct 19: https://www.tommiesports.com/sports...ohnnie_Football_at_Allianz_Field_Announcement

That's a one-off game, of course, as already noted. But maybe 2-3 games per year is not unreasonable? Host a playoff game?
 


Outside of that, they are in line with many other MIAC schools for football attendance. Like I said earlier, the combo of large enrollement matched with remaining in D3 has made game attendance pretty low for STU comparably speaking. They would probably get a big boost and students would start caring about athletics if they jumped to a higher NCAA division.

My understanding is that a lot of people at NDSU argued against the move up to DI, using some of the same doubts as expressed in this thread. Which probably happens at every place that is looking to move up.

But the amount of overall growth and excitement around that program and university in general, since the early 2000's to now is almost unbelievable. Sure, winning 7 natty's in DI-AA (FCS) obviously helps too. There would probably be less excitement if you move up and then don't win.

I feel like St Thomas alumni and fans, if they decided to do a move up though, would want to do it right and commit the money to doing it and winning.


Would be really interesting to see if Johnnies & Bennies would rally and ask to move up with them. Always helps to have a familiar face in a move like that.
 
Last edited:

If you want to hear more about this topic, Pat Reusse has a new podcast on the Skor North website. He goes into a lot of detail about what he knows about the story, including who he thinks is pushing it (the St Olaf president). I know some people don't like Reusse, but he has interviewed a lot of MIAC coaches on his old radio show, and has a lot of sources in the conference. He got tipped off to the story from an (unnamed) MIAC basketball coach. so check out that podcast for more background.

warning - fans of Richard Pitino and Mark Coyle may want to avoid the podcast. Reusse is not a fan of the contract extension. Also refers to Coyle as the "Invisible AD."
 

The one thing that I think only one poster mentioned here, is that they can't jump directly to D1. They would have to go through the transition period to D2, spend a few years in D2, and then go through the transition to D1. It would take 10-12 years. And why would the already too large NSIC want them if they were only using them as a stepping stone? And as some have mentioned, that D2 transition period might force them to kill their hockey program, I don't recall the current NCAA rules on teams opting up in one sport, but I thought it was more restrictive now than it was when BSU and Mankato moved up. (though Moorhead was investigating D1 hockey about 8-9 years ago).

I think STU COULD make it in D1 (FCS for football). Enrollment-wise they wouldn't even be close to the smallest school in D1. In fact, their undergrad enrollment is about the same as Duke. And we are one of only a small handful of states that only have one D1 school. Iowa has four, and SD is going to have three soon.
 

And I don't see SJU getting kicked out. They are a much smaller school - they fit the footprint of the rest of the MIAC in that way. Also, their football program history is unique. Kids went there to join that team for decades because of John Gagliardi. His philosophy (no cuts, no contact workouts) was so different and so legendary, people just wanted to be part of the team, even though many would never see the field. I think that legacy still exists to some point.

Another thing about STU - don't they actively recruit a lot of guys who were on D1 rosters but didn't play, so they drop down so they get to actually play?
 
Last edited:



If you want to hear more about this topic, Pat Reusse has a new podcast on the Skor North website. He goes into a lot of detail about what he knows about the story, including who he thinks is pushing it (the St Olaf president). I know some people don't like Reusse, but he has interviewed a lot of MIAC coaches on his old radio show, and has a lot of sources in the conference. He got tipped off to the story from an (unnamed) MIAC basketball coach. so check out that podcast for more background.

warning - fans of Richard Pitino and Mark Coyle may want to avoid the podcast. Reusse is not a fan of the contract extension. Also refers to Coyle as the "Invisible AD."

Reusse is an absolutely terrible 100% sell-out troll on anything Gopher. As such, I won't click on 90% of his article links. Reusse is still very good when writing about non-D1 college sports, high school sports, anything outstate...and sometimes still a good baseball writer.
 

I am listening to the 45 minute podcast right now and it is pretty entertaining. Losts of good final four talk, Clem at JD Hoyt's, NCAA officiating, Pitino- Coyle extension, silly coaching contract scams, , ect

The St. Thomas part has not come up yet.

https://www.skornorth.com/reusse-un...ed-because-people-accept-being-scammed-ep-19/

Ok I just listened to it, and Pat is saying that they will need to "make up" a reason to get rid of 1920 original MiAC member Saint Thomas. (Phil Esten new AD mentioned)

-Saint Olaf is driving all of this- President of St. Olaf enraged by 0-97 loss

-Hamline is hiding it, but the new AD there is behind this as well

-Carleton would vote them out

-MAC wants them out, wants to return to MIAC for football

-non football schools get to vote

-Augsburg is the wild card, football coach Frank H? wants them out too
 
Last edited:

The one thing that I think only one poster mentioned here, is that they can't jump directly to D1. They would have to go through the transition period to D2, spend a few years in D2, and then go through the transition to D1. It would take 10-12 years. And why would the already too large NSIC want them if they were only using them as a stepping stone? And as some have mentioned, that D2 transition period might force them to kill their hockey program, I don't recall the current NCAA rules on teams opting up in one sport, but I thought it was more restrictive now than it was when BSU and Mankato moved up. (though Moorhead was investigating D1 hockey about 8-9 years ago).

I think STU COULD make it in D1 (FCS for football). Enrollment-wise they wouldn't even be close to the smallest school in D1. In fact, their undergrad enrollment is about the same as Duke. And we are one of only a small handful of states that only have one D1 school. Iowa has four, and SD is going to have three soon.

Speaking for myself, I don’t see DI as the stated goal of this move up for St Thomas, if it decides to move up. I see it as DII Northern Sun.

The rules are different now for DII/DIII playing in DI, but that doesn’t count for hockey because there is no DII hockey. So ST would be allowed to play DI hockey, if it wanted. They currently play in STA’s high school rink in Mendota Heights. It would easily be the smallest facility in the WCHA men’s conf, but would be in line with some facilities in Hockey East (like Robert Morris) and on the women’s side it would be comparable with Ohio St’s ice arena.

Northern Sun is losing Augustana, so there would be a spot waiting for ST.
 
Last edited:

And I don't see SJU getting kicked out. They are a much smaller school - they fit the footprint of the rest of the MIAC in that way. Also, their football program history is unique. Kids went there to join that team for decades because of John Gagliardi. His philosophy (no cuts, no contact workouts) was so different and so legendary, people just wanted to be part of the team, even though many would never see the field. I think that legacy still exists to some point.

Another thing about STU - don't they actively recruit a lot of guys who were on D1 rosters but didn't play, so they drop down so they get to actually play?

That would still apply in DII, of course.

I don’t think SJ would get kicked out. I was saying maybe their alumni would want to try to move up with them?

But they could have a DII / DIII rivalry still, similar to Concordia Moorhead vs Moorhead State.

EDIT: I guess that isn’t a thing anymore. Northern Sun teams currently play an 11 game fully conference schedule. So ToJo couldn’t continue unless SJ moved up too!
 
Last edited:




Speaking for myself, I don’t see DI as the stated goal of this move up for St Thomas, if it decides to move up. I see it as DII Northern Sun.

The rules are different now for DII/DIII playing in DI, but that doesn’t count for hockey because there is no DII hockey. So ST would be allowed to play DI hockey, if it wanted. They currently play in STA’s high school rink in Mendota Heights. It would easily be the smallest facility in the WCHA men’s conf, but would be in line with some facilities in Hockey East (like Robert Morris) and on the women’s side it would be comparable with Ohio St’s ice arena.

Northern Sun is losing Augustana, so there would be a spot waiting for ST.

The problem with D2, is that there is significantly less interest in NSIC sports in this state than there is in MIAC sports. There are a number of reasons for that. The MIAC schools tend to have much more tight-knit alumni bases than the state schools. As a grad of an NSIC school, I can say that virtually nobody cared about the athletic programs there. MIAC football gets a lot more media coverage than NSIC football as well. Concordia - St. Paul thought they'd build a niche moving up to D2 from the UMAC, being the only D2 school in the metro, but other than their volleyball powerhouse years, nobody really ever thinks of them at all. UST could end up in the same boat if they go D2.

However, it might be out of their hands.
 

The problem with D2, is that there is significantly less interest in NSIC sports in this state than there is in MIAC sports. There are a number of reasons for that. The MIAC schools tend to have much more tight-knit alumni bases than the state schools. As a grad of an NSIC school, I can say that virtually nobody cared about the athletic programs there. MIAC football gets a lot more media coverage than NSIC football as well. Concordia - St. Paul thought they'd build a niche moving up to D2 from the UMAC, being the only D2 school in the metro, but other than their volleyball powerhouse years, nobody really ever thinks of them at all. UST could end up in the same boat if they go D2.

However, it might be out of their hands.

Basketball in some NSIC schools has some of the best D2 attendance figures in the nation (link) and is way better than the MIAC. NSIC teams get attendance when teams are good. For whatever reason, SJU, Concordia-Moorhead, Bethel and STU draw better in football than several NSIC schools...probably because of tradition and competitiveness nationally. That said, the good NSIC teams get average attendance in the 3,000+ range which is similar to, if not better than, most current UST games (excluding St. Johns).

STU would compete immediately in all sports including football in the NSIC as did Sioux Falls when they moved to D2 from NAIA. I get the feeling STU would draw more attention playing competitive games against most NSIC opponents than non-competitive blow outs against Trinity, Eau Claire, Hamline, Carleton and St. Olaf.

We hear more about MIAC teams near the Twin Cities market (when they are really good) because they're local. If UST and USJ had terrible years in football while Concordia-Moorhead was good, the Cobbers would get very little play here. UST games broadcasted on WCCO would continue to keep the school in the local news. Games vs. MSU Mankato, St. Cloud, UMD, etc. would likely get a larger audience than several of the low tier games played now.
 

No kidding, no one who has been on that campus and seen their facilities would expect them to cry pauper.

I feel like none of those MIAC schools can?? If your kid gets into one of them ... you either better be rich, or hope they get scholarships!
 


For whatever reason, SJU, Concordia-Moorhead, Bethel and STU draw better in football than several NSIC schools...probably because of tradition and competitiveness nationally. That said, the good NSIC teams get average attendance in the 3,000+ range which is similar to, if not better than, most current UST games (excluding St. Johns).

As has been noted, SJ and ST "average" attendance gets a huge boost by ToJo. I mean for goodness sake, 30k+ went to Target Field for that game a couple years ago. I think the year before that, they set the stadium record up in Collegeville with like 1x thousand (forget how much exactly) overflow crowd.

Bethel is a devout religious community, and is usually a winning team. Concordia Moorhead usually has a good team too, and the main private (Lutheran) school for F-M.
 

STU would compete immediately in all sports including football in the NSIC as did Sioux Falls when they moved to D2 from NAIA. I get the feeling STU would draw more attention playing competitive games against most NSIC opponents than non-competitive blow outs against Trinity, Eau Claire, Hamline, Carleton and St. Olaf.

We hear more about MIAC teams near the Twin Cities market (when they are really good) because they're local. If UST and USJ had terrible years in football while Concordia-Moorhead was good, the Cobbers would get very little play here. UST games broadcasted on WCCO would continue to keep the school in the local news. Games vs. MSU Mankato, St. Cloud, UMD, etc. would likely get a larger audience than several of the low tier games played now.

Great points.

Also don't forget lots of NSun (particularly the MN schools) alumni living in the Twin Cities, that might take advantage of a chance to see the team play without having to make a 2-5 hr drive each way.
 

If ST announces a move to the NSun, I hope SJ and Concordia Moorhead move up too. That would preserve ToJo and give back the Condoria-Moorhead St rivalry.

The NSun would be at 18 teams, at that point. I think you could pretty easily break into divisions and play all 8 other teams in your division and then rotate through the other division 3 at a time.

East - Minot, Mary, Crookston, Moorhead St, Concordia Moorhead, Northern St, SW Minn, Sioux Falls, Wayne St
West - Bemidji St, Duluth, St Cloud St, St John's, Concordia St Paul, St Thomas, Mankato St, Winona St, Upper Iowa
 

St. Thomas averaged 2600 for home games last year with an undergrad population of near 7000 in the heart of the metro, Gustavus averaged 2123 in a marginal season for them, with a student population of about 2200 with their stadium located over an hour away from the Twin Cities. I distinctly recall two different MIAC basketball championship games at St. Thomas where Gustavus fans and students outnumbered St. Thomas fans by as much as 5 or 6 to 1 - in St. Thomas' arena. The attendance ratio of students has long lagged at St. Thomas compared to some other MIAC schools. Despite the success, national championships in multiple sports, and size of the institution - St. Thomas just doesn't draw fans outside of their rivalry with St. Johns. This has been the case for a long time and I don't suspect it would change in the future if they remain in D3 or even move up to D2. In my opinion only the jolt of D1 would catch their student's attention (or if they could play St. Johns all 10 football games).

This is all off the main point here - which is the possible move that some in the MIAC are considering to oust St. Thomas. It is interesting to hear Reussee with the dirty laundry of exactly who is behind this and who is lining up with them. I'm sure St. Olaf doesn't like it that this news is out there.
 
Last edited:

If ST announces a move to the NSun, I hope SJ and Concordia Moorhead move up too. That would preserve ToJo and give back the Condoria-Moorhead St rivalry.

The NSun would be at 18 teams, at that point. I think you could pretty easily break into divisions and play all 8 other teams in your division and then rotate through the other division 3 at a time.

East - Minot, Mary, Crookston, Moorhead St, Concordia Moorhead, Northern St, SW Minn, Sioux Falls, Wayne St
West - Bemidji St, Duluth, St Cloud St, St John's, Concordia St Paul, St Thomas, Mankato St, Winona St, Upper Iowa

I think USJ and Conc-Moorhead would definitely at least consider a move but not sure of additional cost. Concordia already has better facilities than most D2 schools and it's a better geographic fit than the MIAC, but I'm sure the cost is a big factor as their enrollment has declined along with the ELCA denomination recently. D3 sports, and especially football, have a developing problem. There is a growing gaping chasm between the haves and have-nots where a handful of good teams nationally routinely beat their lesser opponents by 50+ points in football. These better teams invest heavily in athletics (as a marketing tool) while most D3 teams do not; and UST has exponentially moved in that direction as ALL their sports dominate. That chasm wasn't near as large in the 1980s when the MIAC originally went all-in D3.

In the end, UST is now a comprehensive university that's nationally branded and ranked. It has moved beyond the typical liberal arts status that comprises the MIAC. I look forward to hearing the April 18 meeting results and scoop. It might be one of the few times that I click on a Reusse column.
 

Your choice: which are the University of St. Thomas's most similar peers institutionally (this could be a poll):

1) Hamline, Macalester, Bethel, St. John's, St. Olaf, Gustavus, etc.
2) Concordia St. Paul, MSU Mankato, SCSU, UMD, Bemidji State, Winona State, etc.
3) Drake, Creighton, Marquette, Bradley, Loyola Chicago, DePaul, Butler.

I say #3.
 

Your choice: which are the University of St. Thomas's most similar peers institutionally (this could be a poll):

1) Hamline, Macalester, Bethel, St. John's, St. Olaf, Gustavus, etc.
2) Concordia St. Paul, MSU Mankato, SCSU, UMD, Bemidji State, Winona State, etc.
3) Drake, Creighton, Marquette, Bradley, Loyola Chicago, DePaul, Butler.

I say #3.

Just got caught up in the whole thread. Very interesting topic.

Hands down #3 is who they fit in most with.

I would think UST gains nothing by going D2. For them it has to be D3 or D1.
 

I think USJ and Conc-Moorhead would definitely at least consider a move but not sure of additional cost. Concordia already has better facilities than most D2 schools and it's a better geographic fit than the MIAC, but I'm sure the cost is a big factor as their enrollment has declined along with the ELCA denomination recently. D3 sports, and especially football, have a developing problem. There is a growing gaping chasm between the haves and have-nots where a handful of good teams nationally routinely beat their lesser opponents by 50+ points in football. These better teams invest heavily in athletics (as a marketing tool) while most D3 teams do not; and UST has exponentially moved in that direction as ALL their sports dominate. That chasm wasn't near as large in the 1980s when the MIAC originally went all-in D3.

In the end, UST is now a comprehensive university that's nationally branded and ranked. It has moved beyond the typical liberal arts status that comprises the MIAC. I look forward to hearing the April 18 meeting results and scoop. It might be one of the few times that I click on a Reusse column.

Good post, and agreed.

As I noted, there are no scholarship minimums in DII. And it is not automatic that not giving athletic scholarships means you can't recruit and thus can't compete, because all these schools can and do give "defacto" athletic scholarships to their student-athletes. They just maintain the guise that the aid is open to all students, so it doesn't count as an athletic scholarship to the NCAA or MIAC.
 

Your choice: which are the University of St. Thomas's most similar peers institutionally (this could be a poll):

1) Hamline, Macalester, Bethel, St. John's, St. Olaf, Gustavus, etc.
2) Concordia St. Paul, MSU Mankato, SCSU, UMD, Bemidji State, Winona State, etc.
3) Drake, Creighton, Marquette, Bradley, Loyola Chicago, DePaul, Butler.

I say #3.

Just got caught up in the whole thread. Very interesting topic.

Hands down #3 is who they fit in most with.

I would think UST gains nothing by going D2. For them it has to be D3 or D1.

I get this sentiment, and maybe it would be a huge payoff for them.

But to go from D3 to Big East ... would take 15 years+ and probably hundreds of millions of dollars. It seems like an insurmountable barrier to entry. But .... never put it past a group of motivated, wealthy people to get something done, if they truly want it.
 

I get this sentiment, and maybe it would be a huge payoff for them.

But to go from D3 to Big East ... would take 15 years+ and probably hundreds of millions of dollars. It seems like an insurmountable barrier to entry. But .... never put it past a group of motivated, wealthy people to get something done, if they truly want it.

Big East would be quite the jump, although it isn't the same Big East with Georgetown, Syracuse, UConn, Boston College, Virginia Tech, Miami, Virginia Tech, etc. Not saying they would be ready for the Big East after a transition period but some of the big heavy hitters are gone.

Missouri Valley (Drake, Bardley, Loyola) or Summit (UND, NDSU, Omaha, USD, SDSU) would be more realistic options if they chose to go that route.
 

Big East would be quite the jump, although it isn't the same Big East with Georgetown, Syracuse, UConn, Boston College, Virginia Tech, Miami, Virginia Tech, etc. Not saying they would be ready for the Big East after a transition period but some of the big heavy hitters are gone.

Missouri Valley (Drake, Bardley, Loyola) or Summit (UND, NDSU, Omaha, USD, SDSU) would be more realistic options if they chose to go that route.

Georgetown is still there.
 

Your choice: which are the University of St. Thomas's most similar peers institutionally (this could be a poll):

1) Hamline, Macalester, Bethel, St. John's, St. Olaf, Gustavus, etc.
2) Concordia St. Paul, MSU Mankato, SCSU, UMD, Bemidji State, Winona State, etc.
3) Drake, Creighton, Marquette, Bradley, Loyola Chicago, DePaul, Butler.

I say #3.

Not even close.
#1


#2 is completely different culturally

#3 some people like to think. Almost every grad of st Thomas could tell you where Marquette, drake, creighton, Butler, are located. But most grads of those schools couldn’t even tell you where the University of St thomas is. I have worn a st Thomas sweatshirt in multiple places around the country and been asked if it was worth it to take a vacation there (this has happened to me in Phoenix, JFK, and O’Hare). St Thomas isn’t close to being the brand of the schools you put in number 3.
 




Top Bottom