STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

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Schnauzer said:
The conference, and specifically a few schools like Concordia and Gustavus were really put in a tough spot in this. The situation arose where a significant portion of the conference membership would leave (and the conference would cease to exist) if St. Thomas stayed. So some of the votes to get rid of St. Thomas were made to preserve the conference, not specifically to jetison St. Thomas.

That reality coupled with the fact the conference and pretty much everyone but St. Thomas appears to be on a gag order has left a situation where the MIAC is taking a BEATING in the press and on Twitter. Very frustrating to see all the comments about "I hope St. Thomas flattens the rest of the conference in the two years they have left" and "Why don't they give everyone a participation trophy?"

So, the school that is up to 4x larger than other membership, with recruiting budgets and facilities better than most D2 schools becomes the victim. Literally at every turn, there are comments like I saw on KARE 11 sunrise this morning: "Maybe the other schools should have just tried harder." I partially blame the MIAC itself for this because they have not stated their case and it is an easy case to make. I believe part of that is because they don't want to bad mouth STU but in return, they are taking a beating in public opinion.

I saw nearly ZERO media coverage yesterday comparing school size, facilities, budgets, etc. and also little on the FACT the conference would have disbanded if STU remained. Media likes water cooler chat material and the narrative a school is "being kicked out because they are too good" and "see, look how soft we have all become - everyone wants a trophy" - these things are just too juicy to pass up. And, it gets fueled by people that assume it was an equal playing field in the MIAC or even MIAC alumni that fondly recall beating UST in something in their day.

Sadly, UST simply should have seen the writing on the wall and done this themselves in an orderly fashion long ago.
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Love ya Schnauzer, but this is a summary of your post:

Crying-Baby-e1349829912761.jpg
 

bizzle22 said:
The only MIAC school you'll find pretty consistently near the bottom of the standings in most sports is St. Mary's. The rest of the schools have had their ups and downs for the most part, but none have been consistently terrible. It wouldn't surprise me if some MIAC presidents would like to see St. Mary's leave, because it is also brings down the academic reputation of the conference.

But St. Mary's fits better than St. Thomas with the other MIAC schools in terms of institutional profile/values, though it lags behind in academic rankings. UST is a medium to large regional university (with a pretty transparent goal of becoming a national university) while the rest of the MIAC is small liberal arts colleges and small regional universities.

Enrollment is a major factor for a successful D3 athletic program for a multitude of reasons. Some D3 athletes are recruited, but not all. I played on a varsity team in the MIAC and some of my teammates were not recruited. Some were recruited in a pretty minimal way -- i.e. they met with the coach on their campus visit and got a few generic letters from the coach, but that was about it. Only the top-level D3 players are truly "recruited." Coaches don't have the time or budget to recruit an entire roster in most cases. Enrollment also helps because that means more student fees collected which leads to higher athletics budgets and more money put into facilities.

There was a study done on the factors for success in D3 athletics and the research showed that enrollment was one of the main factors. Enrollment partially explains why you'll find UW-La Crosse, UW-Whitewater, and UW-Eau Claire in the top 25 of the D3 Learfield Director's Cup despite their minimal athletic department budgets. UW-Oshkosh recently had to fold their men's soccer program due to budget cuts despite the fact it was consistently one of the best in the region.
https://www.academia.edu/27346598/Factors_for_Success_in_NCAA_Division_III_Athletics
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A quick search shows that Carleton has won one (1) conference football game in the last 4 years. Also, any school that cannot commit the necessary resources to recruiting and needs to rely on general population to fill rosters should not be in a competitive athletic conference.

I am very familiar with WIAC football and without a doubt, the biggest reason those schools are successful is because they have the necessary support from the top and are given the resources needed to be successful. Not one of the football coaches from those teams is expecting a good player to just show up. They recruit.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
This is exactly what is going to happen to the MIAC in the Twin Cities.
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I think the biggest loser in this is St. John's/St. Bens. St. Thomas will continue to expand and probably find a good spot at one level or another. The rest of the MIAC will continue to play their intramural like sports.

St. John's on the other hand will have carefully toe the line between wanting to be good and improve their athletics, but not too good that they don't get a target on their back. Also the Johnnie/Tommie game is huge for their alumni and it also get them notoriety. Specifically to football, they have fallen a bit behind St. Thomas in the last few years, but not by much and it has given them a pace horse to try and keep up with. But now they are in a conference that is de-emphasizing sports. And maybe that is okay with them, but it hasn't been in the past.
 

WoodburyTim said:
I think the biggest loser in this is St. John's/St. Bens. St. Thomas will continue to expand and probably find a good spot at one level or another. The rest of the MIAC will continue to play their intramural like sports.

St. John's on the other hand will have carefully toe the line between wanting to be good and improve their athletics, but not too good that they don't get a target on their back. Also the Johnnie/Tommie game is huge for their alumni and it also get them notoriety. Specifically to football, they have fallen a bit behind St. Thomas in the last few years, but not by much and it has given them a pace horse to try and keep up with. But now they are in a conference that is de-emphasizing sports. And maybe that is okay with them, but it hasn't been in the past.
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Yep.
 

WoodburyTim said:
Makes the MIAC look pretty small. And overall if they just want to be a conference like the one Ripon and Grinnell and the likes play in that is fine, but I think it is fair then that we don't need write ups on their games in the Sunday Trib or Sunday Pioneer Press. Maybe a little blurb on the score like Nortwestern Bible College gets when they beat Crown College. I didn't go to any of the MIAC schools, but I'll admit I enjoyed following casually who was winning the various sports in the MIAC, but a bush league move like this pretty much makes me not care about the MIAC anymore. However, I am interested to see how things play out for St. Thomas.
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Other than when St Thomas plays St John's or Bethel, that's the coverage the MIAC gets now anyways.
 


WoodburyTim said:
I think the biggest loser in this is St. John's/St. Bens. St. Thomas will continue to expand and probably find a good spot at one level or another. The rest of the MIAC will continue to play their intramural like sports.

St. John's on the other hand will have carefully toe the line between wanting to be good and improve their athletics, but not too good that they don't get a target on their back. Also the Johnnie/Tommie game is huge for their alumni and it also get them notoriety. Specifically to football, they have fallen a bit behind St. Thomas in the last few years, but not by much and it has given them a pace horse to try and keep up with. But now they are in a conference that is de-emphasizing sports. And maybe that is okay with them, but it hasn't been in the past.
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I like the pace horse metaphor. SJU's pace horse in football will be nationally relevant teams (UMHB, UWW, MU, etc.) just like it was before UST football rose to be the perennial MIAC power. Bethel is nationally relevant and Concordia is no pushover either. Unless UST goes D2, they will be just down the road to play.
 

Ope3 said:
Other than when St Thomas plays St John's or Bethel, that's the coverage the MIAC gets now anyways.
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I am able to see short stories on the games or longer stories on the various sports championships. Maybe we are looking at different sources?
 

WoodburyTim said:
I am able to see short stories on the games or longer stories on the various sports championships. Maybe we are looking at different sources?
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The MIAC seems to get better coverage than the NSIC gets. I see the MIAC standings printed in the Strib more often than I see the NSIC standings.
 

Panthadad2 said:
I like the pace horse metaphor. SJU's pace horse in football will be nationally relevant teams (UMHB, UWW, MU, etc.) just like it was before UST football rose to be the perennial MIAC power. Bethel is nationally relevant and Concordia is no pushover either. Unless UST goes D2, they will be just down the road to play.
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You have the problem that to be good enough to beat UWW, Mount Union, or St. Thomas in the playoffs you are going to be beating Carleton and St. Olaf by 70 points. And that is part of why we are where we are.
 



WoodburyTim said:
You have the problem that to be good enough to beat UWW, Mount Union, or St. Thomas in the playoffs you are going to be beating Carleton and St. Olaf by 70 points. And that is part of why we are where we are.
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That is true when it comes to football (it gets the publicity). Mary Hardin-Baylor and Mount Union demolish most conference opposition too. Whitewater not quite as much because there's a little more parity in the WIAC. UMHB and MU do not dominate conference members in all other sports the way UST does and are of generally similar size...which is probably the only thing keeping those conferences from giving them the stink eye.

Interesting how the more detailed explanation coming from the MIAC (not the brief press release) mentions all sports but doesn't mention football: https://d2o2figo6ddd0g.cloudfront.net/b/z/199ggq8je5pzq2/MIAC_Membership_Supplemental_Information.pdf
 

I don't get the drama over this whole thing.

Conferences are largely schools that want to play each other in sports more often.

If teams decide they don't want to.... this is the result.

There is no moral issue here.

If St. Thomas outgrew the MIAC then good for them I say, but that's also a choice that has consequences.
 

I'm pretty sure that STU saw this all coming and that is why they hired an AD that's been at 4 D1 institutions. They likely have a plan of action in place of A, B, and C.

If every school in the MIAC should try harder, why shouldn't STU try harder and move on from the MIAC? Their enrollment is more than double every other school.

Also can we stop comparing WIAC and MIAC? One is state funded in a state with no D2 programs and MIAC is private with nearly 8 D2 programs giving out scholarships in some form.

They have a 20,000 seat stadium in St. Paul now to host football games at D1 level. Build a new basketball arena and play on.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
I'm pretty sure that STU saw this all coming and that is why they hired an AD that's been at 4 D1 institutions. They likely have a plan of action in place of A, B, and C.

If every school in the MIAC should try harder, why shouldn't STU try harder and move on from the MIAC? Their enrollment is more than double every other school.

Also can we stop comparing WIAC and MIAC? One is state funded in a state with no D2 programs and MIAC is private with nearly 8 D2 programs giving out scholarships in some form.

They have a 20,000 seat stadium in St. Paul now to host football games at D1 level. Build a new basketball arena and play on.
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If they saw it coming it seems kinda petty to complain about it too...
 



Clark W. Griswold said:
A quick search shows that Carleton has won one (1) conference football game in the last 4 years. Also, any school that cannot commit the necessary resources to recruiting and needs to rely on general population to fill rosters should not be in a competitive athletic conference.

I am very familiar with WIAC football and without a doubt, the biggest reason those schools are successful is because they have the necessary support from the top and are given the resources needed to be successful. Not one of the football coaches from those teams is expecting a good player to just show up. They recruit.
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This is about more than football, it's about all sports. Carleton does pretty well in everything except football. They've finished in an average of 5th place in the All Sports trophy standings over the last 5 years and are second best among MIAC schools in average finish in the Learfield D3 Director's Cup over the last 5 years. Their athletic programs are generally very competitive.

Schools that fill teams with some non-recruited athletes are the norm in D3. Like I said, most of the top players are recruited and may have had options at the D1 or D2 levels, but the 3rd string point guard and the players on JV teams weren't recruited in most cases.

I am not as familiar with the WIAC, but I'd be extremely surprised if every single player on those rosters was recruited. Certainly all were not recruited heavily. In addition to their massive enrollments by the D3 standards and pretty low admissions standards, the WIAC schools also have the advantage of no D2 schools in the state. They get plenty of kids good enough to play D2, but not wanting to go out-of-state on just a partial scholarship.

Another note, both Macalester and Carleton spend more money on football (and athletics as a whole) than Whitewater.
 

Schnauzer said:
The conference, and specifically a few schools like Concordia and Gustavus were really put in a tough spot in this. The situation arose where a significant portion of the conference membership would leave (and the conference would cease to exist) if St. Thomas stayed. So some of the votes to get rid of St. Thomas were made to preserve the conference, not specifically to jetison St. Thomas.

That reality coupled with the fact the conference and pretty much everyone but St. Thomas appears to be on a gag order has left a situation where the MIAC is taking a BEATING in the press and on Twitter. Very frustrating to see all the comments about "I hope St. Thomas flattens the rest of the conference in the two years they have left" and "Why don't they give everyone a participation trophy?"

So, the school that is up to 4x larger than other membership, with recruiting budgets and facilities better than most D2 schools becomes the victim. Literally at every turn, there are comments like I saw on KARE 11 sunrise this morning: "Maybe the other schools should have just tried harder." I partially blame the MIAC itself for this because they have not stated their case and it is an easy case to make. I believe part of that is because they don't want to bad mouth STU but in return, they are taking a beating in public opinion.

I saw nearly ZERO media coverage yesterday comparing school size, facilities, budgets, etc. and also little on the FACT the conference would have disbanded if STU remained. Media likes water cooler chat material and the narrative a school is "being kicked out because they are too good" and "see, look how soft we have all become - everyone wants a trophy" - these things are just too juicy to pass up. And, it gets fueled by people that assume it was an equal playing field in the MIAC or even MIAC alumni that fondly recall beating UST in something in their day.

Sadly, UST simply should have seen the writing on the wall and done this themselves in an orderly fashion long ago.
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I agree with this.
 

WoodburyTim said:
I think the biggest loser in this is St. John's/St. Bens. St. Thomas will continue to expand and probably find a good spot at one level or another. The rest of the MIAC will continue to play their intramural like sports.

St. John's on the other hand will have carefully toe the line between wanting to be good and improve their athletics, but not too good that they don't get a target on their back. Also the Johnnie/Tommie game is huge for their alumni and it also get them notoriety. Specifically to football, they have fallen a bit behind St. Thomas in the last few years, but not by much and it has given them a pace horse to try and keep up with. But now they are in a conference that is de-emphasizing sports. And maybe that is okay with them, but it hasn't been in the past.
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St. John's is fine and will have MIAC membership for as long as they want it. St. John's makes sense in the MIAC from an institutional perspective, which is the root of the issue with St. Thomas.
 

bizzle22 said:
St. John's is fine and will have MIAC membership for as long as they want it. St. John's makes sense in the MIAC from an institutional perspective, which is the root of the issue with St. Thomas.
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But they lose out on the Tommie Johnnie game. Two years ago, over 37,000 people went to Tommie-Johnnie at Target field. 4 years ago SportsCenter came to SJU for Tommie-Johnnie and it was essentially just like College Gameday. I believe aside from the target field game, the top 5 or so highest attended DIII football games ever have been Tommie-Johnnie at SJU. Thats a big loss for SJU and CSB as well. And the basketball games are pretty big too.

If UST stays in DIII then they can likely find a way to preserve the rivalry but if they go up a level then that is very unfortunate for SJU.
 

bizzle22 said:
St. John's is fine and will have MIAC membership for as long as they want it. St. John's makes sense in the MIAC from an institutional perspective, which is the root of the issue with St. Thomas.
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It is interesting. I feel like St. John's has managed their relationship with the MIAC schools far differently than St. Thomas and I kinda suspect that's because St. John's is committed to staying... St. Thomas not so much.
 

If they went D-II, Saint Thomas' football attendance of 7,478 would be higher than every team in the NSIC, and more than 3 times the conference average. If they went D-I, it would be twice that of the Pioneer Football Conference. It would be below the average of the MVFC, but not terribly out of line. The attendance would likely increase, because they'd get some people coming down from the Dakota schools. I do realize they'd have to spend some time in D-II unless the NCAA granted them a waiver.

I wouldn't mind seeing Saint Thomas come into the barn as a D-I non-conference basketball opponent or in baseball or softball.
 

bizzle22 said:
This is about more than football, it's about all sports. Carleton does pretty well in everything except football. They've finished in an average of 5th place in the All Sports trophy standings over the last 5 years and are second best among MIAC schools in average finish in the Learfield D3 Director's Cup over the last 5 years. Their athletic programs are generally very competitive.

Schools that fill teams with some non-recruited athletes are the norm in D3. Like I said, most of the top players are recruited and may have had options at the D1 or D2 levels, but the 3rd string point guard and the players on JV teams weren't recruited in most cases.

I am not as familiar with the WIAC, but I'd be extremely surprised if every single player on those rosters was recruited. Certainly all were not recruited heavily. In addition to their massive enrollments by the D3 standards and pretty low admissions standards, the WIAC schools also have the advantage of no D2 schools in the state. They get plenty of kids good enough to play D2, but not wanting to go out-of-state on just a partial scholarship.

Another note, both Macalester and Carleton spend more money on football (and athletics as a whole) than Whitewater.
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You are right, there are non-recruited players on rosters, but I doubt they play any meaningful game minutes. The contributors are recruited. The WIAC has roster limits that helps with conference parity and reduces the number of non-recruited players, which would minimize any impact of enrollment. I've heard that SJU had rosters of 150+ in the past (not sure if that is still common). That is an incredible advantage. Imposing a roster limit would have been a better move for the conference rather kicking out a top program.

Also not sure why St. Thomas is punished because teams like Mac and Carleton are inefficient with their money. They can recruit the same players that Whitewater recruits.
 

die hard gopher said:
But they lose out on the Tommie Johnnie game. Two years ago, over 37,000 people went to Tommie-Johnnie at Target field. 4 years ago SportsCenter came to SJU for Tommie-Johnnie and it was essentially just like College Gameday. I believe aside from the target field game, the top 5 or so highest attended DIII football games ever have been Tommie-Johnnie at SJU. Thats a big loss for SJU and CSB as well. And the basketball games are pretty big too.

If UST stays in DIII then they can likely find a way to preserve the rivalry but if they go up a level then that is very unfortunate for SJU.
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True, losing that would hurt. If UST stays D3 I'm sure Tommie/Johnnie will continue in football as well as most other sports.
 

Clark W. Griswold said:
You are right, there are non-recruited players on rosters, but I doubt they play any meaningful game minutes. The contributors are recruited. The WIAC has roster limits that helps with conference parity and reduces the number of non-recruited players, which would minimize any impact of enrollment. I've heard that SJU had rosters of 150+ in the past (not sure if that is still common). That is an incredible advantage. Imposing a roster limit would have been a better move for the conference rather kicking out a top program.

Also not sure why St. Thomas is punished because teams like Mac and Carleton are inefficient with their money. They can recruit the same players that Whitewater recruits.
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Have no idea if the idea of imposing roster limits was explored. I know there is a limit on the number of football players a school is allowed to travel to away games. Don't think there is a limit for home games. UST had around 150 players on their full football roster. Carleton had about 55. But again, all sports are the issue, not just football.

Sounds like the WIAC has done some things to create a more competitive environment. Makes me wonder if the MIAC dropped the ball there. It's possible that they could have gotten out ahead of some of this if they looked at things like that years ago. This whole deal with St. Thomas has been brewing for at least a decade.

I have no idea if Mac or Carleton are efficient with their money or not, but UST spends twice as much on football as Mac and 3x as much as Carleton. UST also spends more on athletics as a whole than both of those schools. UST's athletics budget is almost double that of Carleton. So it's not a matter of efficiency, it's just that St. Thomas spends a lot more on sports.

I don't think most of the Whitewater players could get into Carleton or Mac so I don't agree that they are recruiting the same players.
 
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bizzle22 said:
True, losing that would hurt. If UST stays D3 I'm sure Tommie/Johnnie will continue in football as well as most other sports.
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If you're St. Thomas, it might not make a ton of sense.

Essentially, for St. Thomas it becomes sort of like the NDSU game for the Gophers. It makes a ton of sense for St. Johns, I am not sure sure about St. Thomas. If they're in the WIAC, they could likely play a game at Target Field against UWW in a couple of years that would be huge (I'm sure a rivalry would form), if they're in the Norther Sun, a game against UMD could be a big deal.

None of them will have the tradition that is the St. Johns/St. Thomas rivalry, but that's dead now. Part of that is that they were in the same conference.
 

bizzle22 said:
St. John's is fine and will have MIAC membership for as long as they want it. St. John's makes sense in the MIAC from an institutional perspective, which is the root of the issue with St. Thomas.
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Perhaps. But if you think this doesn't change the visibility and perception of the MIAC, then I don't know what to tell you. And that change can't help but to affect SJU.
 

WoodburyTim said:
Perhaps. But if you think this doesn't change the visibility and perception of the MIAC, then I don't know what to tell you. And that change can't help but to affect SJU.
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I think SJU is committed to the MIAC so it doesn't really matter. Despite their rivalry they have different approaches to sports.
 

A_Slab_of_Bacon said:
I think SJU is committed to the MIAC so it doesn't really matter. Despite their rivalry they have different approaches to sports.
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And that is okay too. I am only arguing that if you want to be good and recognized on a national level like they have been in football historically then this does not help. But if SJU and the rest of the MIAC doesn't care about that then the move makes sense. And that is fine too.
 

Perhaps the MIAC, the Midwest Conference and the UMAC should have sat down and moved some teams around.
 

RodentRampage said:
Perhaps the MIAC, the Midwest Conference and the UMAC should have sat down and moved some teams around.
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Maybe, but it was clear that most of the MIAC teams already made the call (and I think said publicly) that if push came to shove they wanted the MIAC ... without St. Thomas before any sort of real breakup of the MIAC.

To some extent I think that shows some sympathy even from the folks who voted no, and maybe some lack of planning / relationship building from St. Thomas.
 

A_Slab_of_Bacon said:
Maybe, but it was clear that most of the MIAC teams already made the call (and I think said publicly) that if push came to shove they wanted the MIAC ... without St. Thomas before any sort of real breakup of the MIAC.

To some extent I think that shows some sympathy even from the folks who voted no, and maybe some lack of planning / relationship building from St. Thomas.
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People keep bringing up football, but the move probably has as much to do with women’s basketball, women’s soccer etc
 


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