STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

Donate To GopherHole
The true casualty is ToJo.

I really wish there was some way to salvage that. I wish NSun would allow its members to have one non-conference football game, against a DIII rival if so desired. That would save ToJo and even allow Concordia-Moorhead St to be revived.
 


highwayman said:
Never.

There are so few schools in D1 under the 6200 undergrads UST claims, that they would immediately be one of the smallest.
Click to expand...

To answer this claim in more detail:
46% of D1 schools have enrollment of 3,000-9,999, 44% over 10,000, 10% under 3,000.
Median D1 enrollment of 8,959 and mean of 11,798 (gigantic schools skew the mean upwards).

St. Thomas is below the median D1 in enrollment but not by far. They are above the median D2 enrollment of 2,455 and far above the median D3 enrollment of 1,784.

Data source link here
 
Last edited:

Panthadad2 said:
To answer this claim in more detail:
46% of D1 schools have enrollment of 3,000-9,999, 44% over 10,000, 10% under 3,000.
Median D1 enrollment of 8,959 and mean of 11,798 (gigantic schools skew the mean upwards).

St. Thomas is below the median D1 in enrollment but not by far. They are above the median D2 enrollment of 2,455 and far above the median D3 enrollment of 1,784.

Data source link here
Click to expand...

Only 23 schools are under 5,000 in D1, so the gigantic schools do not "skew" the number. That means St. Thomas would be near the bottom for d1, which is in the 5,000-6,000 range.
 

I'd say that if 46% of D1 schools have enrollments between 3,000 and 9,999 - St. Thomas (with a growing enrollment) would be just fine with over 6,000 undergrads. It is also interesting that there have been several arguments that their undergrad size which is more than 3X the average for D3 SHOULDN'T matter for staying D3, and at least one argument that their current enrollment fitting in with 46% of D1 is too small for D1.

Interesting, but as others have said - probably unlikely they jump to D1 even after waiting out the required time frame in D2.
 


highwayman said:
Only 23 schools are under 5,000 in D1, so the gigantic schools do not "skew" the number. That means St. Thomas would be near the bottom for d1, which is in the 5,000-6,000 range.
Click to expand...

Not sure where you're getting the figures. According to the US Dept of Ed, there are 119 D1 schools smaller than 6,200 undergrads and 229 larger than 6,200. That would put UST at the 34th percentile. Notable schools closest to that size include Southern Methodist, Villanova, Loyola Marymount, Duke, Hofstra, etc.

If you want NCAA data, here's the source:

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/
 

LOL

Look at highwayman backpeddle after being proven wrong.

He could play Corner at St Thomas!
 

Panthadad2 said:
Not sure where you're getting the figures. According to the US Dept of Ed, there are 119 D1 schools smaller than 6,200 undergrads and 229 larger than 6,200. That would put UST at the 34th percentile. Notable schools closest to that size include Southern Methodist, Villanova, Loyola Marymount, Duke, Hofstra, etc.

If you want NCAA data, here's the source:

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/
Click to expand...

Interesting web site. If I'm using the filtering criteria correctly, St. Thomas currently is the 24th largest out of 243 schools in their class (NCAA DIII with football). But if they moved to the class of NCAA Division 1-FCS they would be 62nd largest out of 125 or pretty much right in the middle.
 

HopHead said:
Interesting web site. If I'm using the filtering criteria correctly, St. Thomas currently is the 24th largest out of 243 schools in their class (NCAA DIII with football). But if they moved to the class of NCAA Division 1-FCS they would be 62nd largest out of 125 or pretty much right in the middle.
Click to expand...

With some notable, but not numerous, exceptions, DIII is (and SHOULD be, in my opinion) for liberal arts colleges. Anything larger and more comprehensive than that, ie a University, should be in DII.

Notable exceptions are the U of Wisconsin universities. Should be forced out of DIII, but Madison won't allow any UW campus that has football to move up. They don't want any other school in the state to be able to offer scholarships in football.

There are also some large-ish public schools in New Jersey that play DIII. Guessing similar story out there with Rutgers.

There are also the academic elites, that could spend as much money as they wanted on athletics, if they chose to (ie, would be the same as Northwestern, Stanford, Duke, etc.) but choose not to. UChicago, WashU in St Louis, Case Western, Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins.


St Thomas does not fit the general theme. It is larger, and it is a comprehensive university, and that is what it wants to be. They should be in DII, again in my opinion.
 
Last edited:



highwayman said:
Only 23 schools are under 5,000 in D1, so the gigantic schools do not "skew" the number. That means St. Thomas would be near the bottom for d1, which is in the 5,000-6,000 range.
Click to expand...

No one is questioning whether or not it would be on the small side. However, there are a number of private schools with large endowments with undergrad enrollments between 5K-8K that have Division 1 football. Essentially, schools similar to St. Thomas.
 

HopHead said:
Interesting web site. If I'm using the filtering criteria correctly, St. Thomas currently is the 24th largest out of 243 schools in their class (NCAA DIII with football). But if they moved to the class of NCAA Division 1-FCS they would be 62nd largest out of 125 or pretty much right in the middle.
Click to expand...

Interesting how people's gut tells them UST could/should be an FCS school based on their attributes, then there you go, backing it up with data.
 

Gophers_4life said:
With some notable, but not numerous, exceptions, DIII is (and SHOULD be, in my opinion) for liberal arts colleges. Anything larger and more comprehensive than that, ie a University, should be in DII.

Notable exceptions are the U of Wisconsin universities. Should be forced out of DIII, but Madison won't allow any UW campus that has football to move up. They don't want any other school in the state to be able to offer scholarships in football.

There are also some large-ish public schools in New Jersey that play DIII. Guessing similar story out there with Rutgers.

There are also the academic elites, that could spend as much money as they wanted on athletics, if they chose to (ie, would be the same as Northwestern, Stanford, Duke, etc.) but choose not to. UChicago, WashU in St Louis, Case Western, Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins.


St Thomas does not fit the general theme. It is larger, and it is a comprehensive university, and that is what it wants to be. They should be in DII, again in my opinion.
Click to expand...
The larger public schools in New Jersey and New York don't seem to have much an advantage at all in D3 over the smaller private colleges in the area. No reason they need to be in a different division. The only sport with a real competitive imbalance is football and you'll see that in every division. Perhaps football conferences should be allowed to be a little more fluid so teams can move around without having to change conferences for every other sport that works well from a travel/competitive standpoint.
 

AO54 said:
The larger public schools in New Jersey and New York don't seem to have much an advantage at all in D3 over the smaller private colleges in the area. No reason they need to be in a different division. The only sport with a real competitive imbalance is football and you'll see that in every division. Perhaps football conferences should be allowed to be a little more fluid so teams can move around without having to change conferences for every other sport that works well from a travel/competitive standpoint.
Click to expand...

But the entire point is that it has nothing to do with competitiveness, and everything to do with how comprehensive of a university it is and how large it is. I would also add that if it is a public, state funded university and it wants to have varsity intercollegiate athletics, then it has a duty to give back and fund athletic scholarships that can be awarded to student-athletes from in-state (not required, but allow for the possibility).
 



AO54 said:
The larger public schools in New Jersey and New York don't seem to have much an advantage at all in D3 over the smaller private colleges in the area. No reason they need to be in a different division. The only sport with a real competitive imbalance is football and you'll see that in every division. Perhaps football conferences should be allowed to be a little more fluid so teams can move around without having to change conferences for every other sport that works well from a travel/competitive standpoint.
Click to expand...

Here's the executive summary of a 2015 study done on the D3 athletic success issue (pg. 114, https://www.academia.edu/27346598/Factors_for_Success_in_NCAA_Division_III_Athletics):

"The results suggest that a particular profile for success emerged in Division III athletics. Specifically, two types of institutions appear to maintain the greatest opportunity for athletic success: (a) institutions with large student-body populations, and (b) small highly selective institutions. Thus, of the four typologies (Bass, et. al., 2014), a disproportionate amount of academic elite institutions and large public institutions were successful when compared to liberal arts and mission-driven member institutions. Large public institutions such as those seen in the Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference (WIAC) regularly boast student populations over 10,000, and acceptance rates over 75% (UWLAX, 2013; UWOSH, 2011; UWSP, n.d.). Historically, the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse, the University of Wisconsin–Oshkosh, and the University of Wisconsin- Stevens Point combined to win more than 70 national championships. Similar to institutions in the WIAC, member schools of the New England Small Colleges Athletic Conference (NESCAC) such as Williams College, Middlebury College, and Amherst College supported historically successful athletic programs (i.e., more than 75 national championships). However, unlike the WIAC institutions, NESCAC members regularly have student populations below 3,000, and preserve acceptance rates between 10 and 20 percent (Amherst College, n.d.; Middlebury, n.d.; Williams, n.d.). Ultimately, it appears that in order to be athletically successful in Division III athletic competition, institutions can be large or selective, and there does not appear to be substantial opportunities for institutions that do not fall into one of these profiles. The findings of the current study illuminate the outcomes showcased in the previously presented research by Lawrence and Li (2007) and Lawrence, et al. (2012)."
 

Also, those Wisc and NESCAC schools very likely make sure their athletes are well taken care of financially, even though that goes against the idea of DIII.

Would be interesting to see research asking athletes at those schools what percentage of school costs they have to pay out of pocket.
 

Gophers_4life said:
But the entire point is that it has nothing to do with competitiveness, and everything to do with how comprehensive of a university it is and how large it is. I would also add that if it is a public, state funded university and it wants to have varsity intercollegiate athletics, then it has a duty to give back and fund athletic scholarships that can be awarded to student-athletes from in-state (not required, but allow for the possibility).
Click to expand...
Why wouldn't you choose a division you were competitive in? The Division 2 schools in this state are not "giving back" revenue they earned from tickets or tv (with the exception of the men's hockey programs). They're just spending more taxpayer money to fund these scholarships. If you're going to give a discount to some students to go to the local public school you might as well award the best students. Obviously if you've got a D1 program that is supported by tickets and tv revenue then they should spend that money on scholarships for the student athletes who "earned" that money.
 

Gophers_4life said:
Also, those Wisc and NESCAC schools very likely make sure their athletes are well taken care of financially, even though that goes against the idea of DIII.

Would be interesting to see research asking athletes at those schools what percentage of school costs they have to pay out of pocket.
Click to expand...
The NCAA tracks financial aid very closely and you can't give out more to student athletes than the rest of the general student body. That said, the WIAC is just cheaper than most options and the Ivy/NESCAC/Macalester/Carleton can make it very affordable for all their students with low family income.
 

Panthadad2 said:
Here's the executive summary of a 2015 study done on the D3 athletic success issue (pg. 114, https://www.academia.edu/27346598/Factors_for_Success_in_NCAA_Division_III_Athletics):

"The results suggest that a particular profile for success emerged in Division III athletics. Specifically, two types of institutions appear to maintain the greatest opportunity for athletic success: (a) institutions with large student-body populations, and (b) small highly selective institutions. Thus, of the four typologies (Bass, et. al., 2014), a disproportionate amount of academic elite institutions and large public institutions were successful when compared to liberal arts and mission-driven member institutions. Large public institutions such as those seen in the Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference (WIAC) regularly boast student populations over 10,000, and acceptance rates over 75% (UWLAX, 2013; UWOSH, 2011; UWSP, n.d.). Historically, the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse, the University of Wisconsin–Oshkosh, and the University of Wisconsin- Stevens Point combined to win more than 70 national championships. Similar to institutions in the WIAC, member schools of the New England Small Colleges Athletic Conference (NESCAC) such as Williams College, Middlebury College, and Amherst College supported historically successful athletic programs (i.e., more than 75 national championships). However, unlike the WIAC institutions, NESCAC members regularly have student populations below 3,000, and preserve acceptance rates between 10 and 20 percent (Amherst College, n.d.; Middlebury, n.d.; Williams, n.d.). Ultimately, it appears that in order to be athletically successful in Division III athletic competition, institutions can be large or selective, and there does not appear to be substantial opportunities for institutions that do not fall into one of these profiles. The findings of the current study illuminate the outcomes showcased in the previously presented research by Lawrence and Li (2007) and Lawrence, et al. (2012)."
Click to expand...

The NESCAC and bigger public schools do better than other schools in general but the games are still competitive in everything but football.
 

Gophers_4life said:
Also, those Wisc and NESCAC schools very likely make sure their athletes are well taken care of financially, even though that goes against the idea of DIII.

Would be interesting to see research asking athletes at those schools what percentage of school costs they have to pay out of pocket.
Click to expand...

Good point. My daughter at the U is a friend of a former Middlebury women's hockey player (Middlebury noted as a successful selective college above). According to her dad, she spent less to attend Middlebury, which costs nearly $70,000 at full price, than she now pays at the U.
 

AO54 said:
The NCAA tracks financial aid very closely and you can't give out more to student athletes than the rest of the general student body. That said, the WIAC is just cheaper than most options and the Ivy/NESCAC/Macalester/Carleton can make it very affordable for all their students with low family income.
Click to expand...

The only rules I’m aware of is that financial awards given to student-athletes have to be available to the entire student body. But that doesn’t mean the school or the awards committee can’t skew the process to make sure student-athletes get taken care of.
 

Gophers_4life said:
The only rules I’m aware of is that financial awards given to student-athletes have to be available to the entire student body. But that doesn’t mean the school or the awards committee can’t skew the process to make sure student-athletes get taken care of.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what it means, they track every grant/scholarship athletes get compared to what other students get.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
 

AO54 said:
That's exactly what it means, they track every grant/scholarship athletes get compared to what other students get.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

There are ways around that which are not technically illegal by NCAA rules though ethically questionable and would probably piss off your fellow conference schools.
 

I heard yesterday from a UST employee near the program that the school has heard from a D1 conference, and several D2 conferences. It would be a 5 year probationary period before they could jump to D2, so they will either:
A. leave the MIAC and join another D3 conference (WIAC)
B. St. Johns, Bethel, Concordia will stick by them and they will stay in the MIAC for 5 years until they can play in the Northern Sun. This would result in several MIAC schools leaving to join the midwest conference for football.
 

TurfGopher said:
I heard yesterday from a UST employee near the program that the school has heard from a D1 conference, and several D2 conferences. It would be a 5 year probationary period before they could jump to D2, so they will either:
A. leave the MIAC and join another D3 conference (WIAC)
B. St. Johns, Bethel, Concordia will stick by them and they will stay in the MIAC for 5 years until they can play in the Northern Sun. This would result in several MIAC schools leaving to join the midwest conference for football.
Click to expand...

The B option is a little surprising to me. But out of these three, I would speculate that 1) Concordia would be the most open to D2 (renew MSU Moorhead rivalry, good geographic fit) and they already have D2+ facilities...wouldn't be surprised if they've looked at D2/NAIA options for some time, 2) SJU probably would seriously consider if UST goes D2, 3) I would be a little surprised about Bethel because their current easy travel around the Twin Cities and position in the MIAC is pretty good now.

Edit add: the jump to D2 doesn't really take five years. Once it's decided, the first year usually includes the school playing a mostly lame-duck schedule in D3 with a handful of D2 games, then the next two years are fully D2 but probationary. It's my understanding the 4th year is when the school can be full D2 and participate in post season play.
 
Last edited:

AO54 said:
That's exactly what it means, they track every grant/scholarship athletes get compared to what other students get.
Click to expand...

Very doubtful, and even if there is language in the DIII rulebook it likely is impossible to verify and enforce.

That said, all a school has to do is be rich ... then it can just give everyone a big batch of scholarships for whatever.
 

Panthadad2 said:
The B option is a little surprising to me. But out of these three, I would speculate that 1) Concordia would be the most open to D2 (renew MSU Moorhead rivalry, good geographic fit) and they already have D2+ facilities...wouldn't be surprised if they've looked at D2/NAIA options for some time, 2) SJU probably would seriously consider if UST goes D2, 3) I would be a little surprised about Bethel because their current easy travel around the Twin Cities and position in the MIAC is pretty good now.

Edit add: the jump to D2 doesn't really take five years. Once it's decided, the first year usually includes the school playing a mostly lame-duck schedule in D3 with a handful of D2 games, then the next two years are fully D2 but probationary. It's my understanding the 4th year is when the school can be full D2 and participate in post season play.
Click to expand...

The five year probationary period is for going from DII to DI. All the Dakota schools went through this.

That is not true for going from DIII to DII. I don’t k ow what the probationary period is, if any. However I have read that a school needs to be in DII for eight years (?) before it can then start transitioning to DI. Could be off on that.


I would not be surprised about Bethel. It’s a larger school, more comprehensive than liberal arts, and it’s mission-driven (ie, a church school). Those types of schools love pouring money into athletics as a way of advertising the brand (and winning does that the best). Off the top of my head, Liberty, Grand Canyon, BYU, and I think Pepperdine and Baylor, in DI are great examples of this.
 
Last edited:

Gophers_4life said:
Very doubtful, and even if there is language in the DIII rulebook it likely is impossible to verify and enforce.

That said, all a school has to do is be rich ... then it can just give everyone a big batch of scholarships for whatever.
Click to expand...

They absolutely do verify violations and enforce them. http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/kalamazoo-college-failed-monitor-financial-aid

But yes, the rich schools can absolutely give out more money to everyone. Some schools are just cheaper to begin with.
 

Panthadad2 said:
The B option is a little surprising to me. But out of these three, I would speculate that 1) Concordia would be the most open to D2 (renew MSU Moorhead rivalry, good geographic fit) and they already have D2+ facilities...wouldn't be surprised if they've looked at D2/NAIA options for some time, 2) SJU probably would seriously consider if UST goes D2, 3) I would be a little surprised about Bethel because their current easy travel around the Twin Cities and position in the MIAC is pretty good now.

Edit add: the jump to D2 doesn't really take five years. Once it's decided, the first year usually includes the school playing a mostly lame-duck schedule in D3 with a handful of D2 games, then the next two years are fully D2 but probationary. It's my understanding the 4th year is when the school can be full D2 and participate in post season play.
Click to expand...

Forgive my writing. I meant that that those schools(Bethel, SJU, Conc.) would fight hard to keep UST in the MIAC and that would result in some of the other schools leaving the conference for football.
 

AO54 said:
They absolutely do verify violations and enforce them. http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/kalamazoo-college-failed-monitor-financial-aid

But yes, the rich schools can absolutely give out more money to everyone. Some schools are just cheaper to begin with.
Click to expand...

One school out of 4xx being lazy and careless enough to actually get caught, is not proof.

Every school in DIII that cares about athletics does this to some amount. I mean, pigeonholing scholarships ostensibly available to all students towards athletes, in some amount and some form. They just (mostly) are careful enough to not get caught.
 

TurfGopher said:
Forgive my writing. I meant that that those schools(Bethel, SJU, Conc.) would fight hard to keep UST in the MIAC and that would result in some of the other schools leaving the conference for football.
Click to expand...


This doesn’t jive with earlier “all but finished” rumors that say St Olaf has the nine votes it needs. I guess we’ll see.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom