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  1. #256

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_Loblaw View Post
    You think the games before the Big 10 are meaningless? Even for people trying to earn playing time (like Jelly)? I would bet Pitino didn't think they were meaningless with building his trust in Gabe and Oturu.

    You're proving my point, Pitino GAVE him a chance in the "meaningless" preaseason games. He did nothing with that chance.

    We did play some decent teams in the "preseason"( Boston College, Washington, Utah)
    Jelly's numbers: 56 minutes - 15% FG shooting (4 of 26) - 7 assists/6 TOs

    Additionally, if you wanted to ignore the preseason (for whatever reason), then we should also ignore the couple of games against Omaha and North Florida that really bumped up all of Jelly's stats.

    Now to your main point, despite Pitino giving Washington every chance to showcase himself in the preaseason, he still played 19% more minutes in Big Ten/tournament games than Stull.

    I'm not defending Stull. I thought he was awful all year. But I am dumbfounded by the narrative some people are pushing on this board about Washington. Why are you so dug in on this? You, clearly, have come to your conclusion without any logic or facts. It's why you've said things like "well, Jelly's minutes were in the preseason, and that was meaningless" and ""Jelly got a lot of minutes in a meaningless tournament game", blah blah blah.

    Isaiah Washington had every chance in the "preseason" to showcase his abilities. He did not. He continued get some run in the Big 10 (more than Stull), and he was never impressive. He was a liability on the court and we were fighting to make the NCAA. Why would a coach, especially a coach fighting for his job, play Washington more? What nefarious part of Pitino are you alluding to?
    Given the lack of depth, Pitino didn't have good options. Stull didn't impact the game in any positive way, but Jelly did in one important way. In the N/C games Stull played 97 minutes and shot 9/19 from the field with six assists and five TO's. Jelly played 202 minutes and was 22 for 88 from the field with 50 assists and 18 turnovers. In the B1G Jelly had 29 assists and 16 TO's. Stull had 13 assists and 11 TO's. In the B1G Jelly was 24/64 from the field and Stull was 6/27.

    Jelly's passing was what made him valuable and differentiated him from Stull and the other players. That was the head scratcher for me. For all of his deficits, he was the only player on the team who could loosen things up for other players and Pitino didn't use him enough off of the bench. Even if his absolute minutes were more than Stull's, the differentiation wasn't great enough, to the detriment of the team. Jelly could make passes that no one else on the team could.

    I think it's too easy to say that Pitino was justified in not trusting Jelly, especially if the option was Stull. Even with all of his mistakes, he contributed much more to the team and he was a good passer, which made him a unique asset.
    Last edited by jamiche; 04-28-2019 at 09:16 PM.


  2. #257

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamiche View Post
    Given the lack of depth, Pitino didn't have good options. Stull didn't impact the game in any positive way, but Jelly did in one important way. In the N/C games Stull played 97 minutes and shot 9/19 from the field with six assists and five TO's. Jelly played 202 minutes and was 22 for 88 from the field with 50 assists and 18 turnovers. In the B1G Jelly had 29 assists and 16 TO's. Stull had 13 assists and 11 TO's. In the B1G Jelly was 24/64 from the field and Stull was 6/27.

    Jelly's passing was what made him valuable and differentiated him from Stull and the other players. That was the head scratcher for me. For all of his deficits, he was the only player on the team who could loosen things up for other players and Pitino didn't use him enough off of the bench. Even if his absolute minutes were more than Stull's, the differentiation wasn't great enough, to the detriment of the team. Jelly could make passes that no one else on the team could.

    I think it's too easy to say that Pitino was justified in not trusting Jelly, especially if the option was Stull. Even with all of his mistakes, he contributed much more to the team and he was a good passer, which made him a unique asset.
    Thatís only half of it. All you talk about is his offense. This isnít 1970 Iowa HS girls BB. His defense is what kept him off the floor. You have to play on both ends of the floor and he didnít do that well enough


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  3. #258

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    Quote Originally Posted by GFBfan View Post
    That’s only half of it. All you talk about is his offense. This isn’t 1970 Iowa HS girls BB. His defense is what kept him off the floor. You have to play on both ends of the floor and he didn’t do that well enough


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    He wasn't worse than Stull. They were both below average.

    Defense is obviously harder to measure. IW had slightly fewer def rebounds/minute and more steals/minute than Stull. In terms of the eye test, Stull was slower.

    Neither player looked happy to be out there but Jelly's body language was noticeably worse when he wasn't playing well.
    Last edited by jamiche; 04-29-2019 at 05:37 AM.

  4. #259

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    I find it fairly hilarious that people here refuse to cheer for and vilify MN kids that choose to go elsewhere and yet wish "Jelly" the best for abandoning this program.

  5. #260

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    Quote Originally Posted by Former Goofer View Post
    I find it fairly hilarious that people here refuse to cheer for and vilify MN kids that choose to go elsewhere and yet wish "Jelly" the best for abandoning this program.
    I think people view Jelly as more of an addition by subtraction, considering how much Pitino used him.

  6. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzy&Ray View Post
    What is so hard for you to figure out? He didnít bury him as a personal gripe.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I could believe this if I hadn't seen the same behavior previously with other players. And "gripe" probably is the wrong word; I think this a deliberate leadership/management technique and I believe that because the behavior has been repeated. I think this choice is misguided and that's probably the primary reason I can't say honestly that I "like" Pitino. But, I don't have to "like" a coach to believe that he has earned the right to retain his position and no one should care whether or not I like him anyway.

  7. #262

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    Quote Originally Posted by Former Goofer View Post
    I find it fairly hilarious that people here refuse to cheer for and vilify MN kids that choose to go elsewhere and yet wish "Jelly" the best for abandoning this program.
    I'm not sure Jelly "abandoned" the program. Pitino opted not to play him.

  8. #263

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    Foolishly, I keep returning to this thread, certain that the only worthwhile contributions to it would be news of Isaiah's transfer destination.

  9. #264

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjbfbp View Post
    I could believe this if I hadn't seen the same behavior previously with other players. And "gripe" probably is the wrong word; I think this a deliberate leadership/management technique and I believe that because the behavior has been repeated. I think this choice is misguided and that's probably the primary reason I can't say honestly that I "like" Pitino. But, I don't have to "like" a coach to believe that he has earned the right to retain his position and no one should care whether or not I like him anyway.
    He does not ďbenchĒ guys because he doesnít like them. He may bench guys because they donít do what he needs them to do - thatís coaching. A coach is going to play the guys who give him the best chance to win.


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  10. #265

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjbfbp View Post
    I could believe this if I hadn't seen the same behavior previously with other players. And "gripe" probably is the wrong word; I think this a deliberate leadership/management technique and I believe that because the behavior has been repeated. I think this choice is misguided and that's probably the primary reason I can't say honestly that I "like" Pitino. But, I don't have to "like" a coach to believe that he has earned the right to retain his position and no one should care whether or not I like him anyway.
    What coach in D1 do you believe doesn't have guys that end up in the doghouse? Pitino is one of the nicest I've seen honestly. Not many I can think of that are "nicer" or wouldn't have buried Jelly or whoever else doesn't defend or pouts.

  11. #266

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamiche View Post
    He wasn't worse than Stull. They were both below average.

    Defense is obviously harder to measure. IW had slightly fewer def rebounds/minute and more steals/minute than Stull. In terms of the eye test, Stull was slower.

    Neither player looked happy to be out there but Jelly's body language was noticeably worse when he wasn't playing well.
    Both were below average on the ball. Stull was average on D off the ball. IW was one of the worst I've ever seen play D1 off the ball defensively. The coaches in place have plenty of measurements and rankings for D as they breakdown film.

  12. #267

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamiche View Post
    I'm not sure Jelly "abandoned" the program. Pitino opted not to play him.
    Maybe Jelly shouldn't have pouted all the time? "Jelly" never did himself any favors whatsoever.

  13. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    Foolishly, I keep returning to this thread, certain that the only worthwhile contributions to it would be news of Isaiah's transfer destination.
    Lack of such news speaks for itself, I think.

    JTG

  14. #269

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    Quote Originally Posted by manderson1984 View Post
    What coach in D1 do you believe doesn't have guys that end up in the doghouse? Pitino is one of the nicest I've seen honestly. Not many I can think of that are "nicer" or wouldn't have buried Jelly or whoever else doesn't defend or pouts.
    I'll repeat the advice of my prior post and ask that you make special note of it this time:


    "...no one should care whether or not I like him anyway"

  15. #270

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjbfbp View Post
    I'll repeat the advice of my prior post and ask that you make special note of it this time:


    "...no one should care whether or not I like him anyway"
    Appreciate the clarification, although I could care less if you like him or not. I do enjoy good conversation and am curious of fans logic behind their thoughts. Especially if I respect their opinion because they have noticed something I have missed. I do apologize for responding to you on a message board, it was totally out of line on my part.

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