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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by tato2001 View Post
    No, don’t notify the FBI. While that may be unseemly, or unfair, it certainly doesn’t rise to the level of fraud. Not even close. Harvard is well within their rights to make giving a factor in admissions.

    When I google fraud the two definitions that pop up are:


    “wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
    "he was convicted of fraud””

    ...and

    “a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.”

    The second definition is so apropos that it looks like it could have been written with EXACTLY this case in mind. Basing admission decisions on donations doesn’t fit either definition. Not even remotely.

    In fact, You could make an argument that it’s no different than admitting athletes or smart people: they are all admitted based on their perceived ability to benefit the university, in your example not through good sports teams or academic achievement, but through financial support.

    In the criminal case at hand, there is no claimed financial support, and the academic and athletic accomplishments are straight up fake. Their admission was based on misrepresented potential benefit to the university. That’s precisely what makes it fraudulent.
    Legacy kids are admitted despite not being the best qualified, ie they take as spot that could have gone to a more deserving student. Isn’t that the source of the outrage? And, schools admit family donations and the implicit promise of future donations is at least a significant part of the reason for admitting these unqualified or less qualified kids. Isn’t it a bit fraudulent for someone to be admitted despite not being qualified for any reason other than donations to the general fund?

    We have a coach that has a misleading and some would say outright fraudulent bio. Many people inflate or exaggerate their resumes or CV. Cheating, plagiarism can have very serious consequences and they should. Sure these things are dishonest, unseemly, and embarrassing when caught but the FBI isn’t knocking on their door.


  2. #47

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    If the issue is strictly who is being admitted, who really cares? The only real issue I would take is if someone is being admitted and getting financial AID that could be going to someone else. That would be a major issue.

    So someone's parents give a lot of money to Harvard or USC or wherever and they get admitted in front of someone more qualified. So...? At the end of the day, the student still has to make it through school, pass classes, earn their degree, etc.

    At the end of the day, it's the school's image or reputation that would be tarnished if it were admitting massive numbers of unqualified students, and damaged even more so if they were GRADUATING large numbers of unqualified students. It's not REMOTELY in any school's interest to diminish the prestige of a degree from that particular institution. On the flip side, if a school is turning away more qualified students, again, the school is going to suffer from a reputation standpoint.

    Admittedly, I haven't jumped into the details on this situation neck deep but unless I'm missing something (which could absolutely be true), this seems to be an odd exercise or use of resources.
    - Respect is the ultimate currency

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogee Oglethorpe View Post
    If the issue is strictly who is being admitted, who really cares? The only real issue I would take is if someone is being admitted and getting financial AID that could be going to someone else. That would be a major issue.

    So someone's parents give a lot of money to Harvard or USC or wherever and they get admitted in front of someone more qualified. So...? At the end of the day, the student still has to make it through school, pass classes, earn their degree, etc.

    At the end of the day, it's the school's image or reputation that would be tarnished if it were admitting massive numbers of unqualified students, and damaged even more so if they were GRADUATING large numbers of unqualified students. It's not REMOTELY in any school's interest to diminish the prestige of a degree from that particular institution. On the flip side, if a school is turning away more qualified students, again, the school is going to suffer from a reputation standpoint.

    Admittedly, I haven't jumped into the details on this situation neck deep but unless I'm missing something (which could absolutely be true), this seems to be an odd exercise or use of resources.
    Schools aren’t really measured by their output and educational ability to turn lead into gold, they’re measured by selectivity, certain technical schools, and alumni networks.

    It can (and should be) argued that the value of a degree of many private schools isn’t matched by their outcomes or prospects after school vs somewhere like MN, WI, etc. This question was looked at in some depth years ago and there is some mild correlation with lifetime earnings, career achievement from the Ivies but not from the second tier private schools.

    One could also argue most degrees are overrated “hoops to be jumped through”...but that’s a wormhole we may not be able to escape from. Based on the lack of reasoning/“thinking” skills exhibited by many college grads (and professors) it seems the educational system is failing at a core tenet and rubber stamping degrees. Once in the workforce the graduate must still perform...and outside of degrees opening doors prospects tend to even out over time.

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogee Oglethorpe View Post
    If the issue is strictly who is being admitted, who really cares? The only real issue I would take is if someone is being admitted and getting financial AID that could be going to someone else. That would be a major issue.

    So someone's parents give a lot of money to Harvard or USC or wherever and they get admitted in front of someone more qualified. So...? At the end of the day, the student still has to make it through school, pass classes, earn their degree, etc.

    At the end of the day, it's the school's image or reputation that would be tarnished if it were admitting massive numbers of unqualified students, and damaged even more so if they were GRADUATING large numbers of unqualified students. It's not REMOTELY in any school's interest to diminish the prestige of a degree from that particular institution. On the flip side, if a school is turning away more qualified students, again, the school is going to suffer from a reputation standpoint.

    Admittedly, I haven't jumped into the details on this situation neck deep but unless I'm missing something (which could absolutely be true), this seems to be an odd exercise or use of resources.
    When coaches and college administrators take bribes, I think it's more than "business as usual." Pretty sure most businesses wouldn't have much sympathy if they found out an employee had taken money to avoid company policies. I've seen 8 coaches and one administrator accused of accepting cash.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pompous Elitist View Post
    Do you guys work? No, one cannot generate more man hours out of thin air. Yes, you can have irons in the fire but one cannot work on them simultaneously or give quality work without man hours. This isn’t a difficult concept.
    Simultaneously? Never said simultaneously. Did I not say "somebody else gets flagged to make a few call." Teamwork. You missed the whole tie in to team work. TEAM work. But, I have always respected your ability to... what is that word? ... read.
    You can call me Shirley. The "S" has to stand for something!

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean S View Post
    Simultaneously? Never said simultaneously. Did I not say "somebody else gets flagged to make a few call." Teamwork. You missed the whole tie in to team work. TEAM work. But, I have always respected your ability to... what is that word? ... read.
    It seems like a really dumb thing to argue about. You know full well what I mean.

  7. #52
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    Jan 2009
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    New River, AZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pompous Elitist View Post
    Schools aren’t really measured by their output and educational ability to turn lead into gold, they’re measured by selectivity, certain technical schools, and alumni networks.

    It can (and should be) argued that the value of a degree of many private schools isn’t matched by their outcomes or prospects after school vs somewhere like MN, WI, etc. This question was looked at in some depth years ago and there is some mild correlation with lifetime earnings, career achievement from the Ivies but not from the second tier private schools.

    One could also argue most degrees are overrated “hoops to be jumped through”...but that’s a wormhole we may not be able to escape from. Based on the lack of reasoning/“thinking” skills exhibited by many college grads (and professors) it seems the educational system is failing at a core tenet and rubber stamping degrees. Once in the workforce the graduate must still perform...and outside of degrees opening doors prospects tend to even out over time.
    We don't agree a lot of times but you are dead on here.

    The greatest threat to free thought has now seated itself in the university system. Hyperbole? Try to get a passing grade if you don't agree with a professor or TA. Lock-step or you are out. Politics is a circle, not a line. The far-right and far-left are identical.

    That said, I am shocked at the inability for many grads in the workplace who cannot think for themselves. When told to "work something out," the usual response is "who do I ask?". They know pop culture and world news but rarely know what's going on in their own home town, let alone the US.

    My son is a junior at Arizona. On New Year's Eve, he overheard a group of students yell "Happy 2019th birthday, USA !!!" His response was "my generation has no shot..."

    Gopher football fan since 1924. DNA-wise.

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by highwayman View Post
    We don't agree a lot of times but you are dead on here.

    The greatest threat to free thought has now seated itself in the university system. Hyperbole? Try to get a passing grade if you don't agree with a professor or TA. Lock-step or you are out. Politics is a circle, not a line. The far-right and far-left are identical.

    That said, I am shocked at the inability for many grads in the workplace who cannot think for themselves. When told to "work something out," the usual response is "who do I ask?". They know pop culture and world news but rarely know what's going on in their own home town, let alone the US.

    My son is a junior at Arizona. On New Year's Eve, he overheard a group of students yell "Happy 2019th birthday, USA !!!" His response was "my generation has no shot..."

    I saw a 55 year old man get so drunk last night that he tried to exit a bar through the women's bathroom door and then vomited while being pushed out of the door by the bouncer.
    I think we're doing alright.

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello-world View Post
    I saw a 55 year old man get so drunk last night that he tried to exit a bar through the women's bathroom door and then vomited while being pushed out of the door by the bouncer.
    I think we're doing alright.
    Alcoholism and addiction are seen in every generation.

    It's really not the same as not knowing what 2019 means, is it?
    --------------

    "7 National Titles...

    ... But Let's Not Get Carried Away".

  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogee Oglethorpe View Post
    If the issue is strictly who is being admitted, who really cares? The only real issue I would take is if someone is being admitted and getting financial AID that could be going to someone else. That would be a major issue.

    So someone's parents give a lot of money to Harvard or USC or wherever and they get admitted in front of someone more qualified. So...? At the end of the day, the student still has to make it through school, pass classes, earn their degree, etc.

    At the end of the day, it's the school's image or reputation that would be tarnished if it were admitting massive numbers of unqualified students, and damaged even more so if they were GRADUATING large numbers of unqualified students. It's not REMOTELY in any school's interest to diminish the prestige of a degree from that particular institution. On the flip side, if a school is turning away more qualified students, again, the school is going to suffer from a reputation standpoint.

    Admittedly, I haven't jumped into the details on this situation neck deep but unless I'm missing something (which could absolutely be true), this seems to be an odd exercise or use of resources.
    I think you might be skipping over the possibility that A) applicants in question might not actually be qualified to attend a prestigious school (without cheating), and B) certain "students" may not be all that interested in actually doing any real course work — at least, not if they can skate by using other means.
    --------------

    "7 National Titles...

    ... But Let's Not Get Carried Away".

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