Coaching Candidates

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There are multiple coaches at the lower D1 level that moved down from higher D1 because they didn't produce the results; only to have very good careers at the lower D1. Tommy Amaker comes immediately to mind. Not sure what the secret sauce is but someone that can be a teacher, role model, develops a culture and of course has a firm grasp of the basketball fundamentals come to mind. I have no idea how to define Pitino's culture - what exactly is a player buying into?
 

bizzle22 said:
This is a good example of someone who people don't take seriously. Delusional is the term that comes to mind.

Let's be better than this folks.
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I have included Roy and K but not as program builders that play it clean. This was about non blue blood builders playing it straight. I have used 'WE' when referring to my firm on coaching issues and AD's in the past but mostly we is the U program and us that support it.
 

builtbadgers said:
I have included Roy and K but not as program builders that play it clean. This was about non blue blood builders playing it straight. I have used 'WE' when referring to my firm on coaching issues and AD's in the past but mostly we is the U program and us that support it.
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My comment wasn't directed at you
 




With only a few exceptions, this has been a really good, constructive conversation. Thanks to all who've contributed to it. Reflecting on it and listening to Coach Pitino publicly respond to questions about his job security, I wonder if he himself suspects that he might be able to develop more fully and freely if he were at a lower level of Division 1 ball. It's probable that he's accomplished everything he could accomplish as an assistant, and I don't think myself that he'd benefit from returning to that gig. The guy is not without his talents, but his head coaching rise was so meteoric that he wasn't able to build a solid enough foundation, and everything he's been trying to build on top of it is shaky. I think even his current development is stunted at this level because of the unique demands, pressures and pitfalls of the high-major, top-conference, big-city scene. I just don't think he completely developed his own personal way of doing things and has never had the space and time to do so. For instance, where John Beilein began learning about how to deal with parents as a middle-school coach, Richard has been getting his belated education dealing with the imposing personality of a former Army paratrooper and maybe getting pushed around a little in the process.

I can only speak from my own perspective in my own profession. I learned by doing the grunt work at the lowest possible classification, which is essential experience now that I'm a reluctant visionary and industry leader. I can't imagine being in this position if I hadn't done every kind of actual work on every conceivable type and scope of project. I would just be faking it. I recall what Ara Parseghian said in his retirement: that he wouldn't have been equipped to deal with everything surrounding the Notre Dame job without the decades of experience he had beforehand (in obvious reference to Gerry Faust, who struggled without all that experience).

Richard was a speculative home-run-swing hire, made in the hope that he'd be a prodigious natural at this, and we'd be getting one of those rare hall-of-fame talents on the front end, much like what Norwood felt he'd done at VCU hiring a young Shaka Smart. And you know what, even Teague would admit that if your home run swing fails to connect, you lick your wounds and try, try again. You don't hold out hope that something which is obviously not working will suddenly start working.
 

My top requirement for a new head coach: no training wheels.

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Ewert86PC said:
My top requirement for a new head coach: no training wheels.

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Please define "no training wheels" for us.

Must have D1 head coaching experience?

Must have major conference head coaching experience?

Must have major conference assistant coaching experience?

Other definition?

I'm curious how you define.
 

Ewert86PC said:
My top requirement for a new head coach: no training wheels.

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I think the other 12 people they offered prior to Richard didn't require them and then Norwood was left to take a home run swing.
 



SelectionSunday said:
Please define "no training wheels" for us.

Must have D1 head coaching experience?

Must have major conference head coaching experience?

Must have major conference assistant coaching experience?

Other definition?

I'm curious how you define.
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Has experience, preferably with excellent results in the following:
- recruiting
- adjusting game plan during a game
- motivating players

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manderson1984 said:
I think the other 12 people they offered prior to Richard didn't require them and then Norwood was left to take a home run swing.
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That says a lot about Norwood's lack of readiness to be AD at the U of MN.

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Ewert86PC said:
That says a lot about Norwood's lack of readiness to be AD at the U of MN.

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We can agree he had flaws. Everything I still heard was still that Flip was in on the job and was going to take it until Glen Taylor came in and told him to wait and he'd have Kahn's job. Now not having a back up plan in place and a back up to that is poor.
 

Ewert86PC said:
Has experience, preferably with excellent results in the following:
- recruiting
- adjusting game plan during a game
- motivating players

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If you can't get a person with that type of "record" then do you not fire the current coach or do you believe that no matter what that person is out there? I asked Built about this too. Most guys that have all these requirements are already taken. Our job isn't good enough to pull someone from one of those jobs at this time imo. Needs to be a ton of research done and hopefully we get the right guy, but most likely they will have one of those areas not being seen as a strength or will be unknown yet, otherwise they would have a P5 job already.
 



manderson1984 said:
If you can't get a person with that type of "record" then do you not fire the current coach or do you believe that no matter what that person is out there? I asked Built about this too. Most guys that have all these requirements are already taken. Our job isn't good enough to pull someone from one of those jobs at this time imo. Needs to be a ton of research done and hopefully we get the right guy, but most likely they will have one of those areas not being seen as a strength or will be unknown yet, otherwise they would have a P5 job already.
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Where in those listed requirements did it say that the experience has to be power 5, or even D1 for that matter? Or that it has to be as a head coach?

That was about as broad as it gets. There are probably over a hundred coaches who would meet those requirements.

This isn't a Cadillac job, but it's also not as low on the totem pole as some seem to think. Any mid-major head coach (save for maybe a couple, like Bob McKillop) would love to be considered for our job. And pretty much any assistant coach in the country would love to be considered for our job as well.
 

manderson1984 said:
If you can't get a person with that type of "record" then do you not fire the current coach or do you believe that no matter what that person is out there? I asked Built about this too. Most guys that have all these requirements are already taken. Our job isn't good enough to pull someone from one of those jobs at this time imo. Needs to be a ton of research done and hopefully we get the right guy, but most likely they will have one of those areas not being seen as a strength or will be unknown yet, otherwise they would have a P5 job already.
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I believe that in a crap shoot if you have already rolled snake eyes, then your next throw will be an improvement.

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Ewert86PC said:
I believe that in a crap shoot if you have already rolled snake eyes, then your next throw will be an improvement.

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Fair enough. I also think the guy rolling the dice now is more competent.
 


bizzle22 said:
Where in those listed requirements did it say that the experience has to be power 5, or even D1 for that matter? Or that it has to be as a head coach?

That was about as broad as it gets. There are probably over a hundred coaches who would meet those requirements.

This isn't a Cadillac job, but it's also not as low on the totem pole as some seem to think. Any mid-major head coach (save for maybe a couple, like Bob McKillop) would love to be considered for our job. And pretty much any assistant coach in the country would love to be considered for our job as well.
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It didn't nor did I say it did. I'm saying most of the guys that have experience and success in those areas are already taken by other P5. I don't agree with the any mid major comment. The opportunity in basketball exists to turn a "mid major" comment. Guys stick to those jobs and build them out of the "mid major" role. P5 coaches are getting canned all the time and they can be very selective if they choose to leave. I think it can be a hidden gem for the right guy, but they need to find that person, and that person needs to find us. Can be done, but it's not simple or easy.
 

manderson1984 said:
We can agree he had flaws. Everything I still heard was still that Flip was in on the job and was going to take it until Glen Taylor came in and told him to wait and he'd have Kahn's job. Now not having a back up plan in place and a back up to that is poor.
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I heard the same thing with regards to Flip but the reasoning for not taking the job was different.

I heard that Teague and Mike Ellis wanted to dictate which assistant coaches Flip could bring in and Flip also had second thoughts about working for Teague.

No idea which version is the truth.
 
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manderson1984 said:
It didn't nor did I say it did. I'm saying most of the guys that have experience and success in those areas are already taken by other P5. I don't agree with the any mid major comment. The opportunity in basketball exists to turn a "mid major" comment. Guys stick to those jobs and build them out of the "mid major" role. P5 coaches are getting canned all the time and they can be very selective if they choose to leave. I think it can be a hidden gem for the right guy, but they need to find that person, and that person needs to find us. Can be done, but it's not simple or easy.
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I didn't see the previous poster mention anything about Power 5, and then you talked about Power 5 experience in you response so maybe it confused me a little. Seemed like you inferred he/she meant Power 5

I just think you are underestimating the fact that it is still a B1G job.

Look at the 14 current B1G coaches:

- Three left Power 5 jobs to come to their current job
- Three got their current job as their first D1 HC job (Two of which - Gard and Izzo - were already on staff at their current school and were basically handpicked by the previous coach. The other is Collins, who was Coach K's top assistant for a number of years before getting the NW job.)
- Of the 11 B1G head coaches who had previous D1 head coaching experience, ten of them previously made the NCAA tourney as a head coach (Pitino is the lone exception to this)

Basically what I'm saying is that there is no reason to think that we shouldn't be able to get a coach who has taken a mid-major to a NCAA tourney, or possibly a current Power 5 coach who is unhappy for some reason with his current position. If Illinois and Penn State can do those things, then there is no reason to think the Gophers can't.

Like I said, there would be exceptions to the mid-major thing (I mentioned McKillop, and probably left out a few others), but just about all of them would love to be considered. I don't think that is even debatable. But I guess if you disagree then we'll have to agree to disagree.
 

Teague failed last time. I think he assumed he could get Smart and couldn't. He had Flip and couldn't close the deal, for which I will never forgive him. After that he was completely lost.

That doesn't mean there's nobody out there. There are plenty of good coaches, and I don't buy the story that nobody wanted the job last time. Hoiberg turned us down, but he was not realistic. The fact that he even considered it proves to me this job is attractive.

It requires an AD who can evaluate talent or at least talk to others who can do it for him. Coyle has been praised for his hires so far, but the fact is it will be a few years before we know if any of them will pan out long term.
 

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bizzle22 said:
I didn't see the previous poster mention anything about Power 5, and then you talked about Power 5 experience in you response so maybe it confused me a little. Seemed like you inferred he/she meant Power 5

I just think you are underestimating the fact that it is still a B1G job.

Look at the 14 current B1G coaches:

- Three left Power 5 jobs to come to their current job
- Three got their current job as their first D1 HC job (Two of which - Gard and Izzo - were already on staff at their current school and were basically handpicked by the previous coach. The other is Collins, who was Coach K's top assistant for a number of years before getting the NW job.)
- Of the 11 B1G head coaches who had previous D1 head coaching experience, ten of them previously made the NCAA tourney as a head coach (Pitino is the lone exception to this)

Basically what I'm saying is that there is no reason to think that we shouldn't be able to get a coach who has taken a mid-major to a NCAA tourney, or possibly a current Power 5 coach who is unhappy for some reason with his current position. If Illinois and Penn State can do those things, then there is no reason to think the Gophers can't.

Like I said, there would be exceptions to the mid-major thing (I mentioned McKillop, and probably left out a few others), but just about all of them would love to be considered. I don't think that is even debatable. But I guess if you disagree then we'll have to agree to disagree.
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I did infer a little on the P5. I'm not saying we can't get a mid major who is on the rise, but they just won't have a ton of years of concrete evidence to prove they can do all those things well. They will have some area that we can do our best to guess how it will translate, but we won't know. Nate Oats is a person who I think we could get. He will be a top priority mid major coach who will probably have many offers, but I wouldn't say he's arrived by any means either. So far he has a good 4 year track record of keeping a plane in the air, but he didn't necessarily build the plane and didn't lead the take off (build). The only one I think that fits the categories that Ewert wants that we could feasibly hire imo would be Sampson, but we won't touch him. He'd be a guarantee to give us a shot at moving up in the conference. Anyone else we will have to take a chance, which is fine and part of the deal unless you are Duke, UNC, or Kansas.
 

bizzle22 said:
I didn't see the previous poster mention anything about Power 5, and then you talked about Power 5 experience in you response so maybe it confused me a little. Seemed like you inferred he/she meant Power 5

I just think you are underestimating the fact that it is still a B1G job.

Look at the 14 current B1G coaches:

- Three left Power 5 jobs to come to their current job
- Three got their current job as their first D1 HC job (Two of which - Gard and Izzo - were already on staff at their current school and were basically handpicked by the previous coach. The other is Collins, who was Coach K's top assistant for a number of years before getting the NW job.)
- Of the 11 B1G head coaches who had previous D1 head coaching experience, ten of them previously made the NCAA tourney as a head coach (Pitino is the lone exception to this)

Basically what I'm saying is that there is no reason to think that we shouldn't be able to get a coach who has taken a mid-major to a NCAA tourney, or possibly a current Power 5 coach who is unhappy for some reason with his current position. If Illinois and Penn State can do those things, then there is no reason to think the Gophers can't.

Like I said, there would be exceptions to the mid-major thing (I mentioned McKillop, and probably left out a few others), but just about all of them would love to be considered. I don't think that is even debatable. But I guess if you disagree then we'll have to agree to disagree.
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I don't want this type of coach though. This type of coach, even if successful, builds us up, then leaves for greener pastures. This kind of coach is a huge crapshoot.

I would rather they compiled a list of the most successful mid major, D2 and D3 guys who have built hugely successful programs, maintained them for a decent period of time because they have built a system that works and is able to be maintained, interview the ones that are interested and pick the best one. This is what Wisconsin did when they hired both Bennet and Bo. Both were great hires. Both built a system based on hard work and made themselves into a real program. It had very little and still does to this day to do with recruiting. It is coaching and a system that makes them successful.
 

Go Gophs said:
I don't want this type of coach though. This type of coach, even if successful, builds us up, then leaves for greener pastures. This kind of coach is a huge crapshoot.

I would rather they compiled a list of the most successful mid major, D2 and D3 guys who have built hugely successful programs, maintained them for a decent period of time because they have built a system that works and is able to be maintained, interview the ones that are interested and pick the best one. This is what Wisconsin did when they hired both Bennet and Bo. Both were great hires. Both built a system based on hard work and made themselves into a real program. It had very little and still does to this day to do with recruiting. It is coaching and a system that makes them successful.
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I don't get where this comes from.

Who is the last coach to leave one of our major programs (football, men's basketball, men's hockey) for greener pastures? Heck, who was the last B1G coach in any major program that left on their own for a different job?

The only foreseeable reasons a coach would leave is if:

a) They are constantly butting heads with their AD/administration.
I don't see this being an issue, because Coyle has a long-term contract and would have every reason to support a hire that he will be judged on with every advantage he possibly could.

b) They get offered a better job.
As much as some people don't seem to believe it, there really aren't that many jobs that are no-doubt-about-it better than this one. Maybe 15-20ish. We are in that next group of thirty or so where the rankings would fluctuate depending on who was doing the rankings. And if one of the blue bloods comes calling for our coach, then that means they have really turned things around here. We would be in a better spot than we are now so I'd be fine with that.

c) Money
Not an issue. We have plenty of it. We get more money from our B1G TV deal than any other conference. In some cases a lot more. If we had a coach who was the right fit, and was winning to the point where we were selling out the Barn we would have no problem matching or exceeding what just about any other school offered them.

d) Intangibles (close to home/wife's home, weather, etc.)
These can't be controlled and would depend on the individual coach. In some cases these could be an advantage, and in others could be a disadvantage.
 

What do people think about Dana Altman? I've read in a couple places that Nebraska might be interested in going that direction. To me, that would be a home run for Nebraska?
 

bizzle22 said:
I don't get where this comes from.

Who is the last coach to leave one of our major programs (football, men's basketball, men's hockey) for greener pastures? Heck, who was the last B1G coach in any major program that left on their own for a different job?

The only foreseeable reasons a coach would leave is if:

a) They are constantly butting heads with their AD/administration.
I don't see this being an issue, because Coyle has a long-term contract and would have every reason to support a hire that he will be judged on with every advantage he possibly could.

b) They get offered a better job.
As much as some people don't seem to believe it, there really aren't that many jobs that are no-doubt-about-it better than this one. Maybe 15-20ish. We are in that next group of thirty or so where the rankings would fluctuate depending on who was doing the rankings. And if one of the blue bloods comes calling for our coach, then that means they have really turned things around here. We would be in a better spot than we are now so I'd be fine with that.

c) Money
Not an issue. We have plenty of it. We get more money from our B1G TV deal than any other conference. In some cases a lot more. If we had a coach who was the right fit, and was winning to the point where we were selling out the Barn we would have no problem matching or exceeding what just about any other school offered them.

d) Intangibles (close to home/wife's home, weather, etc.)
These can't be controlled and would depend on the individual coach. In some cases these could be an advantage, and in others could be a disadvantage.
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This post is 100% spot on. In recent memory, the only B10 coach that I can think of that left without being fired or retired is Steve Alford. And he had controversy that forced him out. Edit: Forgot about Self, who left for a Blue Blood, coaches don't pass that up.

Even if we hired a coach who was a bigger flight risk, I'd rather have a coach who has 4 years of success rather than a safer hire who spends 4 years trying to find success. Program success makes it easier to hire a new coach if we had to replace one that left for "greener grass".
 
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bizzle22 said:
I don't get where this comes from.

Who is the last coach to leave one of our major programs (football, men's basketball, men's hockey) for greener pastures? Heck, who was the last B1G coach in any major program that left on their own for a different job?

The only foreseeable reasons a coach would leave is if:

a) They are constantly butting heads with their AD/administration.
I don't see this being an issue, because Coyle has a long-term contract and would have every reason to support a hire that he will be judged on with every advantage he possibly could.

b) They get offered a better job.
As much as some people don't seem to believe it, there really aren't that many jobs that are no-doubt-about-it better than this one. Maybe 15-20ish. We are in that next group of thirty or so where the rankings would fluctuate depending on who was doing the rankings. And if one of the blue bloods comes calling for our coach, then that means they have really turned things around here. We would be in a better spot than we are now so I'd be fine with that.

c) Money
Not an issue. We have plenty of it. We get more money from our B1G TV deal than any other conference. In some cases a lot more. If we had a coach who was the right fit, and was winning to the point where we were selling out the Barn we would have no problem matching or exceeding what just about any other school offered them.

d) Intangibles (close to home/wife's home, weather, etc.)
These can't be controlled and would depend on the individual coach. In some cases these could be an advantage, and in others could be a disadvantage.
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You really think there are only 15-20 jobs better than MN? Watch stadium put up a great series where coaches ranked jobs. MN got 10th out 14 in the big ten alone. This is my point exactly, I think MN can be turned into a better job, but it's not as enviable as many think it is. I think if they ranked the top jobs in the country, MN would not be in the top 50 right now. Top 75, yes easily. Those rankings are fluid of course, but there are some things that just are not thought of highly by others.

https://watchstadium.com/news/big-ten-basketball-coaches-rank-the-best-jobs-in-the-conference-10-11-2018/
 

Frank Grimey Grimes said:
This post is 100% spot on. In recent memory, the only B10 coach that I can think of that left without being fired or retired is Steve Alford. And he had controversy that forced him out.

Even if we hired a coach who was a bigger flight risk, I'd rather have a coach who has 4 years of success rather than a safer hire who spends 4 years trying to find success. Program success makes it easier to hire a new coach if we had to replace one that left for "greener grass".
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Agreed, you never worry about hiring a guy because he might leave if he makes the job better.
 

manderson1984 said:
You really think there are only 15-20 jobs better than MN? Watch stadium put up a great series where coaches ranked jobs. MN got 10th out 14 in the big ten alone. This is my point exactly, I think MN can be turned into a better job, but it's not as enviable as many think it is. I think if they ranked the top jobs in the country, MN would not be in the top 50 right now. Top 75, yes easily. Those rankings are fluid of course, but there are some things that just are not thought of highly by others.

https://watchstadium.com/news/big-ten-basketball-coaches-rank-the-best-jobs-in-the-conference-10-11-2018/
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There are 15-20 that I'd say are for sure better. Six from the B1G.

Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke, UCLA, Kansas, Indiana, Louisville, Syracuse, Ohio St, Michigan, Michigan St, Maryland, Purdue, Florida, and Texas.
That's 15.

Add any 5 you want to that list and then think if there are any others where you would say: If a coach went from the Minnesota job a job at this school most college basketball fans would see it as a promotion.

Can't think of many beyond the ones I listed that would be considered a promotion.
 

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