I still support Pitino!

I think realistically it is time for a gut check on status of the program, still three weeks left in the season but high end suggests a 3-3 finish with 2-4 very possible, sure they could go 4-2 but based on the way the season is going I highly doubt that.

What are the long term trends for the program, my fear is that we are at a high point in the cycle, next years team will be decent but won't have the depth for a noticeable improvement, that is still sub .500 in the B1G, how does that impact recruiting, glad I don't have to make the decision but I don't have a lot of optimism going forward.

Would love to see them win out but I am not holding my breath on that one.
 

And the defense getting better? Nebraska made 13 layups and shot 50%. If that is an improvement they must have been really bad defensively.


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This is the one thing that truly makes me question Pitino as a long term coach. Year 6, 3 of 5 starters with plenty of experience, we switch into zone for like 2 possessions and it seems to frustrate Nebraska and then we immediately go back to man to man. Every other team knows that to stymie our offense you just go zone and we can't dribble penetrate or shoot well from outside. Should have been same recipe for Nebraska and we shy away from it. I would love to know what keeps us from being able to run an effective zone defense 6 years into his tenure.
 

Average coach and average at best recruiter. This does not equal a solid program. If he is still the coach next season, I will still go to games and root for the team. That doesn't mean I think he is the right guy for the job. Six years of evidence says otherwise imo.
 

This is the one thing that truly makes me question Pitino as a long term coach. Year 6, 3 of 5 starters with plenty of experience, we switch into zone for like 2 possessions and it seems to frustrate Nebraska and then we immediately go back to man to man. Every other team knows that to stymie our offense you just go zone and we can't dribble penetrate or shoot well from outside. Should have been same recipe for Nebraska and we shy away from it. I would love to know what keeps us from being able to run an effective zone defense 6 years into his tenure.

Agreed!

If I can teach AAU kids how to play a match-up zone with only 2 practices a week, You'd think Pitino could get it done with College kids and their complete focus.
 

I still support him because I hope he turns it around and starts having more success and takes us to the promised land. His abysmal results are making me more and more skeptical that he can do that.
 


With all this talk about Pitino being on the hot seat I have gone back and forth about where I stand. I generally like him and have felt that we are headed in the right direction. It’s also hard to know where to stand when we don’t know anything about who we could get. In addition, I worry about what a change of coach would do to our recruiting of the loaded 2020 MN high school class and maybe even 2021 recruits. I was curious to see how we would respond to the Nebraska loss and hope we can continue with some fire under us.

First post on gopherhole - check.
 

With all this talk about Pitino being on the hot seat I have gone back and forth about where I stand. I generally like him and have felt that we are headed in the right direction. It’s also hard to know where to stand when we don’t know anything about who we could get. In addition, I worry about what a change of coach would do to our recruiting of the loaded 2020 MN high school class and maybe even 2021 recruits. I was curious to see how we would respond to the Nebraska loss and hope we can continue with some fire under us.

First post on gopherhole - check.

Welcome aboard! While I'm not the biggest fan of Pitino, I think if he makes the tournament he deserves another year. Having said that, it isn't about the 2020 class. If we get the right coach, I would say the new coach would have at least as good of a chance to land any of the 2020 recruits as Pitino. I think we will win at least two games down the stretch and he will be back again next season, as he should be if that happens.
 

Agreed!

If I can teach AAU kids how to play a match-up zone with only 2 practices a week, You'd think Pitino could get it done with College kids and their complete focus.

It's almost as if there is another professional coach trying to teach them how to defeat that match-up zone with even more than 2 practices a week.
 

Welcome aboard! While I'm not the biggest fan of Pitino, I think if he makes the tournament he deserves another year. Having said that, it isn't about the 2020 class. If we get the right coach, I would say the new coach would have at least as good of a chance to land any of the 2020 recruits as Pitino. I think we will win at least two games down the stretch and he will be back again next season, as he should be if that happens.

Disagree. I have no idea where he is with the 2020 class, but a change at this stage, unless it is an out of the park hire and/or someone who already has a relationship with the guys and their families, the chance of winning over a recruit in the last six to nine months of the process is very low. I don't have a lot of exposure to high end recruiting, but the little I have suggests early and consistent relationships are what most often wins in the end. Only blue bloods or maybe some super corrupt programs/people can swoop in at the last minute and win over recruits. Abandoning Pitino now is functionally saying good-bye to the 2020 class in Minnesota. That is a short-term issue in the program and maybe not the most important, but it is a factor.
 



After the Gophers sweep these final 5 games, Pitino will have to turn recruits down cause there will be so many that want to come here!

Sorry Matthew, we don't have room for you.
 

Disagree. I have no idea where he is with the 2020 class, but a change at this stage, unless it is an out of the park hire and/or someone who already has a relationship with the guys and their families, the chance of winning over a recruit in the last six to nine months of the process is very low. I don't have a lot of exposure to high end recruiting, but the little I have suggests early and consistent relationships are what most often wins in the end. Only blue bloods or maybe some super corrupt programs/people can swoop in at the last minute and win over recruits. Abandoning Pitino now is functionally saying good-bye to the 2020 class in Minnesota. That is a short-term issue in the program and maybe not the most important, but it is a factor.

no way is this part true. we would not be saying good buy to the 2020 class if Pitino lays an egg the rest of the year and he is canned.
lets be real here....if this team doesn't make the tourney this year it would be just as easy for these recruits to just say man this team just isn't really that good...and while I have a relationship with Pitino he just doenst seem to be a good enough coach to get a team to the NCAA tourney. and like some of you believe....Pitino just has bad luck and I don't want to go into that situation

for me its clear....if he cant get this team to the NCAA tourney this year its time to move on....if he can...at least he can still sell that to recruits here moving forward and at least we would have some momentum for filling the open spots for 2019
 

After the Gophers sweep these final 5 games, Pitino will have to turn recruits down cause there will be so many that want to come here!

Sorry Matthew, we don't have room for you.

:clap:


man lets make this become reality where we have this problem
 

Disagree. I have no idea where he is with the 2020 class, but a change at this stage, unless it is an out of the park hire and/or someone who already has a relationship with the guys and their families, the chance of winning over a recruit in the last six to nine months of the process is very low. I don't have a lot of exposure to high end recruiting, but the little I have suggests early and consistent relationships are what most often wins in the end. Only blue bloods or maybe some super corrupt programs/people can swoop in at the last minute and win over recruits. Abandoning Pitino now is functionally saying good-bye to the 2020 class in Minnesota. That is a short-term issue in the program and maybe not the most important, but it is a factor.

Recruiting is all about relationships and I agree, I want as best a shot with the 2020 class as we can. It seems like he has built up some good relationships. If he doesn't land anybody and we are not winning games, then I would look for a change.
 



no way is this part true. we would not be saying good buy to the 2020 class if Pitino lays an egg the rest of the year and he is canned.
lets be real here....if this team doesn't make the tourney this year it would be just as easy for these recruits to just say man this team just isn't really that good...and while I have a relationship with Pitino he just doenst seem to be a good enough coach to get a team to the NCAA tourney. and like some of you believe....Pitino just has bad luck and I don't want to go into that situation

for me its clear....if he cant get this team to the NCAA tourney this year its time to move on....if he can...at least he can still sell that to recruits here moving forward and at least we would have some momentum for filling the open spots for 2019

Coaches already remind prospects about Pitino's record. Most kids pick the most successful coach or program on the offer list. Not a single guy looks at luck. How much have you won, how many guys did you get to the NBA. Here we sell playing time, the chance to be a part of something that has not been done in a generation. Winning brings the good kind of recognition. On the recruiting trail the more accomplished coaches have a huge presence , they sit together, there is a certain pecking order and kids and families notice. Just win, really like this team and then you get ever so slightly better players, you become more national, you get ESPN coverage, featured games, national, print. You must win first, then keep winning.
 

no way is this part true. we would not be saying good buy to the 2020 class if Pitino lays an egg the rest of the year and he is canned.
lets be real here....if this team doesn't make the tourney this year it would be just as easy for these recruits to just say man this team just isn't really that good...and while I have a relationship with Pitino he just doenst seem to be a good enough coach to get a team to the NCAA tourney. and like some of you believe....Pitino just has bad luck and I don't want to go into that situation

for me its clear....if he cant get this team to the NCAA tourney this year its time to move on....if he can...at least he can still sell that to recruits here moving forward and at least we would have some momentum for filling the open spots for 2019

I don't disagree with you about the trajectory of the program. I do disagree with you that a coaching change doesn't impact the 2020 class. I have a hard time envisioning anyone coming in and sweeping the locals up at the last minute recruiting wise. You make a strong point about not getting them without a coaching change, but you don't make a case for why we would be better off (or not behind) with the 2020 class if there is a coaching change. I have no clue on what the 2020 class is thinking and whether some of them may lean Gophers to be Gophers no matter who is there. It seems like there are fewer and fewer of those types of players any more. I know there is one legacy recruit in Dana Jackson's son, but beyond that I don't see anything compelling that would draw them to the U in lack of clarity of a coaching change.

The big question for the AD is whether he believes the new assistants can provide the infrastructure for a successful future. There just isn't enough evidence to make a judgment on that either way.
 
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Coaches already remind prospects about Pitino's record. Most kids pick the most successful coach or program on the offer list. Not a single guy looks at luck. How much have you won, how many guys did you get to the NBA. Here we sell playing time, the chance to be a part of something that has not been done in a generation. Winning brings the good kind of recognition. On the recruiting trail the more accomplished coaches have a huge presence , they sit together, there is a certain pecking order and kids and families notice. Just win, really like this team and then you get ever so slightly better players, you become more national, you get ESPN coverage, featured games, national, print. You must win first, then keep winning.

exactly.....and my "luck" thing was more tounge in cheek than anything else....

like I said....either we get momentum the rest of this year and make the tourney....or its time to move on....there is more for other coaches to sell against Pitino than Pitino has to sell for himself & this program....but that can all change for him the rest of this season if he and his team can get wins!
 

I still support Pitino! You are going to lose games when the players can’t make a basket.


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I still support Pitino! You are going to lose games when the players can’t make a basket.


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Who recruited players who can't make a basket?

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Who recruited players who can't make a basket?

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Exactly. College sports is 90% recruiting. You either recruit the highest rated players (Kentucky), or the players who fit perfectly within your system (Wisconsin). Pitino has done an okay job on recruiting "rankings", but it's unclear how his players fit within his system. For example, on paper most people were pleased with Michael Hurt's commitment, however it is impossible to see how his game was a good fit within the makeup of this team. Hurt is okay on defense, and nonexistent on offense. If you're a defensive identity team then great, work with Hurt. But are they? This is the debate that has raged on within this form for years. Does Pitino recruit defensive minded players or offensive minded players? In my observation he simply recruits the highest ranked players he can get, and/or the best athletes. This lends itself to a style of basketball that can best be described as "making it up as you go". That's why we sometimes capture lightning in a bottle and play great against better teams. But, the biggest reason we lack consistency is because they really are making it up as they go. Some of this is justifiable, but as Ewert mentioned, why don't we recruit more players who have proven they are versatile scorers in high school? It seems that most successful teams have at least one guy who physically looks out of place but simply knows how to put the ball in the basket. We have Stull who looks out of place physically, but he can't score, why is he on this team? Looks to me like he was a random grab in the hopes that he outplayed his ability.. desperation perhaps? There are a number of players that seem blatantly out of place on the floor within Pitino's "system". IW, Hurt, Stull, Omersa, just for this year. If we want to take a walk through the six year history of his teams there are many more that are simply out of place systematically.

I think that Coffey perfectly encapsulates what I'm talking about. He is a very good basketball player and athlete who every so often takes over a game. Yet, there are many times during a season where he has no outlets on the offensive end and turns it over in spades. These phenomena would level off for Coffey in a system where offensively other players provided more versatility. The obvious example is at PG where we arguably have played without one all season (as most of you have pointed out). But the one-dimensional abilities of the other players hurt this team as well. We're lucky that Murphy is as amazing as he is under the basket, but that's all he does, he can't stretch the defense with dribbling, passing, or shooting. McBrayer is good in transition, that's it. Oturu was able to stretch out Purdue in the first half, but he's basically just under the basket all season. Kalscheur has shown some driving ability and shows the most upside in terms of versatility, but he's mostly just an outside shooter (thankfully a pretty good one). I think that this one-dimensionality would be more or less okay if they were outstanding on defense, but they're basically just an above average defensive team. Programs like ours need to be GREAT at something. We're not. We're not great at limiting TO's. We're not great on defense. We're not great shooting 3's. We're not great at pace of play. We're average at everything because Pitino doesn't recruit for specificity. Again, this is okay if you want to be pleasantly surprised two or three times a season and extremely let own two or three times a season. Current and future recruiting doesn't appear to change this trend, and I believe it would be in the best interest of the program to find someone who is committed to recruiting a very specific style of player. Perhaps a strategic approach to recruiting would give us the opportunity to break from this extended streak of mediocrity.

I give Pitino a break on the bizarre injury/behavioral history of this team, and I do believe that the Springs/Curry injuries were pivotal in their demise during that stretch. I give him credit for putting a highly competitive team on the floor in that time bubble. However, that bubble has burst and we're primed for future stretches of mediocre play. I think Coyle needs to try something new. I like how he hired Fleck and that PJ is severely intentional in building his style of program. We're never going to get the best in or out of state players, so we need to recruit with specificity. There are a number of basketball coaches out there who are willing and able to do just that. Find one, pay him, and give him six/seven years just like we did for Pitino.
 

Exactly. College sports is 90% recruiting. You either recruit the highest rated players (Kentucky), or the players who fit perfectly within your system (Wisconsin). Pitino has done an okay job on recruiting "rankings", but it's unclear how his players fit within his system. For example, on paper most people were pleased with Michael Hurt's commitment, however it is impossible to see how his game was a good fit within the makeup of this team. Hurt is okay on defense, and nonexistent on offense. If you're a defensive identity team then great, work with Hurt. But are they? This is the debate that has raged on within this form for years. Does Pitino recruit defensive minded players or offensive minded players? In my observation he simply recruits the highest ranked players he can get, and/or the best athletes. This lends itself to a style of basketball that can best be described as "making it up as you go". That's why we sometimes capture lightning in a bottle and play great against better teams. But, the biggest reason we lack consistency is because they really are making it up as they go. Some of this is justifiable, but as Ewert mentioned, why don't we recruit more players who have proven they are versatile scorers in high school? It seems that most successful teams have at least one guy who physically looks out of place but simply knows how to put the ball in the basket. We have Stull who looks out of place physically, but he can't score, why is he on this team? Looks to me like he was a random grab in the hopes that he outplayed his ability.. desperation perhaps? There are a number of players that seem blatantly out of place on the floor within Pitino's "system". IW, Hurt, Stull, Omersa, just for this year. If we want to take a walk through the six year history of his teams there are many more that are simply out of place systematically.

I think that Coffey perfectly encapsulates what I'm talking about. He is a very good basketball player and athlete who every so often takes over a game. Yet, there are many times during a season where he has no outlets on the offensive end and turns it over in spades. These phenomena would level off for Coffey in a system where offensively other players provided more versatility. The obvious example is at PG where we arguably have played without one all season (as most of you have pointed out). But the one-dimensional abilities of the other players hurt this team as well. We're lucky that Murphy is as amazing as he is under the basket, but that's all he does, he can't stretch the defense with dribbling, passing, or shooting. McBrayer is good in transition, that's it. Oturu was able to stretch out Purdue in the first half, but he's basically just under the basket all season. Kalscheur has shown some driving ability and shows the most upside in terms of versatility, but he's mostly just an outside shooter (thankfully a pretty good one). I think that this one-dimensionality would be more or less okay if they were outstanding on defense, but they're basically just an above average defensive team. Programs like ours need to be GREAT at something. We're not. We're not great at limiting TO's. We're not great on defense. We're not great shooting 3's. We're not great at pace of play. We're average at everything because Pitino doesn't recruit for specificity. Again, this is okay if you want to be pleasantly surprised two or three times a season and extremely let own two or three times a season. Current and future recruiting doesn't appear to change this trend, and I believe it would be in the best interest of the program to find someone who is committed to recruiting a very specific style of player. Perhaps a strategic approach to recruiting would give us the opportunity to break from this extended streak of mediocrity.

I give Pitino a break on the bizarre injury/behavioral history of this team, and I do believe that the Springs/Curry injuries were pivotal in their demise during that stretch. I give him credit for putting a highly competitive team on the floor in that time bubble. However, that bubble has burst and we're primed for future stretches of mediocre play. I think Coyle needs to try something new. I like how he hired Fleck and that PJ is severely intentional in building his style of program. We're never going to get the best in or out of state players, so we need to recruit with specificity. There are a number of basketball coaches out there who are willing and able to do just that. Find one, pay him, and give him six/seven years just like we did for Pitino.

Thoughtful and articulate post, HoopsFan. Thank you.

I still support Pitino. I agree that recruiting has been his largest failure. In the beginning I think he was trying to plug holes and make the most out of the Hollins/Hollins duo. So he was looking to get a PG who could play right away and move Andre off the point. And he knew he needed a PF, and he tried to bring in that transfer from UCF or wherever? So he was plugging holes, not really building for the future. Once he set his eyes to the future, I think he didn't immediately realize what "level" of athlete he could reasonably recruit to the U of M. In short, I think he did the things that "worked" at Louisville and Florida, and was a little surprised to see that those efforts wouldn't pay off at a school that didn't have an established track record of success. But he's figured all of that out now.

Next year, I think we'll have TWO shooters. And a point guard. Oturu will be ready to eat up the league - we're starting to see it already. Curry can go PF or C. Just need one more big. Pitino will get that done. This isn't by accident. He's figured out what level of athlete he can get here and what sort of team balance he needs to be effective.

Moreover, look at what he's not doing any more: he's not "reaching" like he did with BK or GD. He's figured out that a couple of bad reached take 4 years to get off the roster. So now he'll sit on scholarships rather than reach. That's learning.

Basically, I think that if we were to fire Pitino, we will have paid the price to have seasoned him, only to have some other school reap the benefits. Hang tight with this guy. He's a winner.
 

I was getting ready to write a very similar post to this one. Yes, it is tough to watch Pitino get out coached time after time in the Big 10 games. This comes from a lack of experience. He wins in the non conference games because of the other coaches are inexperienced and our talent shows. Remember Izzo has been at Michigan State for 24 years, Beilein has been at Michigan 12 years after coaching after 5 years at Richmond and 5 years at West Virginia. You can teach age and experience. I agree that we all can sit and watch a game and question his decisions, I know I do and it drives me nuts to see the other team adjust at halftime and we come out and run basically the same offense in the 2nd half and we see a lead disappear. I think Pitino will someday become one of the great older experienced coaches. My vote as hard as it is right now, let's keep him and try to ride this out.
 


Who recruited players who can't make a basket?

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Most of them could shoot in high school. You never know who will be able to handle the pressure and competition at this level. The U still lacks enough depth to make up for the ones that can’t cut it.


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Lose today and it will get ugly on this board. The gophers have to win today.
 

Thoughtful and articulate post, HoopsFan. Thank you.

I still support Pitino. I agree that recruiting has been his largest failure. In the beginning I think he was trying to plug holes and make the most out of the Hollins/Hollins duo. So he was looking to get a PG who could play right away and move Andre off the point. And he knew he needed a PF, and he tried to bring in that transfer from UCF or wherever? So he was plugging holes, not really building for the future. Once he set his eyes to the future, I think he didn't immediately realize what "level" of athlete he could reasonably recruit to the U of M. In short, I think he did the things that "worked" at Louisville and Florida, and was a little surprised to see that those efforts wouldn't pay off at a school that didn't have an established track record of success. But he's figured all of that out now.

Next year, I think we'll have TWO shooters. And a point guard. Oturu will be ready to eat up the league - we're starting to see it already. Curry can go PF or C. Just need one more big. Pitino will get that done. This isn't by accident. He's figured out what level of athlete he can get here and what sort of team balance he needs to be effective.

Moreover, look at what he's not doing any more: he's not "reaching" like he did with BK or GD. He's figured out that a couple of bad reached take 4 years to get off the roster. So now he'll sit on scholarships rather than reach. That's learning.

Basically, I think that if we were to fire Pitino, we will have paid the price to have seasoned him, only to have some other school reap the benefits. Hang tight with this guy. He's a winner.

This is how I feel.

I know winning matters and he has had some tough years and people are getting impatient. But the deal that MegaT made was that we would be spending years training in a young coach. I know many of you didn’t like it, think it’s taking too long, have had enough years ago, don’t think he will ever be a good coach, etc, etc.... Pitino has learned from his mistakes and is a good coach.


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Thoughtful and articulate post, HoopsFan. Thank you.

I still support Pitino. I agree that recruiting has been his largest failure. In the beginning I think he was trying to plug holes and make the most out of the Hollins/Hollins duo. So he was looking to get a PG who could play right away and move Andre off the point. And he knew he needed a PF, and he tried to bring in that transfer from UCF or wherever? So he was plugging holes, not really building for the future. Once he set his eyes to the future, I think he didn't immediately realize what "level" of athlete he could reasonably recruit to the U of M. In short, I think he did the things that "worked" at Louisville and Florida, and was a little surprised to see that those efforts wouldn't pay off at a school that didn't have an established track record of success. But he's figured all of that out now.

Next year, I think we'll have TWO shooters. And a point guard. Oturu will be ready to eat up the league - we're starting to see it already. Curry can go PF or C. Just need one more big. Pitino will get that done. This isn't by accident. He's figured out what level of athlete he can get here and what sort of team balance he needs to be effective.

Moreover, look at what he's not doing any more: he's not "reaching" like he did with BK or GD. He's figured out that a couple of bad reached take 4 years to get off the roster. So now he'll sit on scholarships rather than reach. That's learning.

Basically, I think that if we were to fire Pitino, we will have paid the price to have seasoned him, only to have some other school reap the benefits. Hang tight with this guy. He's a winner.

It's been a while since I last posted, mainly because I waffle back and forth between my wishes of riding this out with Pitino, and to see what would happen with someone else. I agree with you, I think that he's figuring it out and he absolutely has created better roster balance since the graduation of BK and GD. Part of my hesitancy to wish for "firing Pitino" is that we are playing (not sure that we need to be benching IW.. oh well) without a true PG this season and that we'll have Carr next season, perhaps we should wait and see what Willis and Carr bring to this team next season. Yet again, on the other hand Pitino has hosted many players on campus this recruiting period and has gotten just one commitment (one de-commitment as well). I'm tempted to give him the benefit of the doubt due to the destructive nature of starting over, in reality we have two choices. To witness the continued development of the current staff and roster. Or sacrifice a year or two or three of bumps and bruises to reset. There can be winning during those stretches but it's far less likely to occur. Ohio St. and Indiana are great examples of that. They have talent but it's not coming together quickly with new coaches. We certainly don't have the track record of those programs, our bumps are likely to be more severe. Those developmental seasons suck and it'll be more fun for next season if we stick with RP. But, alas we're likely to see continued mediocrity and be put in a position of hoping for an overachieving team. While Wisconsin basketball is boring, they win, I like that. They limit TO's, control pace of play, and master fundamentals. I would be so happy if the Gophers showed the ability to do one of these things, or something else that's highly productive. After six seasons I would expect to be able to pinpoint something that they're building toward. The only thing that I think they do well most nights is play with great intensity. I respect and appreciate that, but misguided intensity can lead to sloppy play and opportunities for your opponent.

Overall, I agree that Pitino will continue to grow and the team will improve under his watch. However, I do not believe that he will ever bring the team to national prominence, which honestly is the only thing I care about as for an end-all-be-all.
 

Lose today and it will get ugly on this board. The gophers have to win today.

Nail on head. I truly believe if they don't win at least 2 of last 4, Pitino is gone. And I think that is fair.
 

Nail on head. I truly believe if they don't win at least 2 of last 4, Pitino is gone. And I think that is fair.

I agree. 4-0 = tourney bid and safe. 3-1 = likely tourney bid probably safe. 2-2 requires at least one probably two B1G tourney wins to get in, likely safe. 1-3 = out and maybe gone. 0-4 = RP gone.
 

Who recruited players who can't make a basket?

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No one ever mentions that he has never intilled anything that became a identity of something we do great, day after day. There is not a single thing that we are known for. Nearly always, guys put in a defense that causes people problems so as to negate the lack of scoring you can not get or count on not only in recruiting but day to day. We are not great at precision offense, we have improved at limiting turnovers. I keep hearing he is a good coach that is learning. ALL coaches are learning but no matter how soon they start their career the great ones hit success really soon. The question is will he ever win the conference and i say no. In fact there is not any evidence to suggest he can finish ahead of UW. For me, i can never call 38-68 good and the lack of ever establishing anything that stamps the program as great at anything is alarming.
 




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