Gopher basketball starting over

If there is a new coach (probable) he has a chance to not have a set back because he has a good young core of sophs to work with in Carr, Kalscheur and Oturu.

But he will need to produce good spring recruiting help- a PF/C and a shooter at least. Pitino got it done with a steal of a find in lil Dre who was amazing that first year and he also got some good run out of Smith as a 6th man sniper. The roster Tubby handed him was not real good and it was an old roster. So this could be a good to really good situation for a new coach if he can find the right adds.

It was a roster that just rolled off of back to back 20+ win seasons. It had Andre and Austin Hollins (who both played great games in winning our last NCAA tournament game). It also had EE and Mo Walker.
 

Coyle's bullet did hit the mark, though, with Fleck for football. And I only mean, he got the guy that he wanted. Now sure, in theory if you're reaching down you SHOULD get the guy ... but Fleck could've gone to other schools too. He did choose to come to Minnesota, and we apparently were on his list of schools he was willing to leave W Michigan for.


Does Coyle have another bullet left ...... ?

And if we were going to reach "down", what conference is the right fit? MAC again? Missouri Valley?


Coyle started a relationship with Fleck when he tried to get him for Syracuse. So when he got hired for the AD job, I think he already had Fleck in his top 3.

A good AD should always have their "network" of 3-5 guys they would call on a moments notice. People they have previous relationships with.
When AD's are out and about, their job should be cultivating coaching relationships so when the need arises there is a comfort level for the coach to tie himself to that AD.

Teague missed on Shaka, which is a really bad sign because having that relationship, you should almost already "know" if they would jump or not. After that, he didn't have relationships with Hoiberg, Flip, etc., to get them on-board.
 

If there is a new coach (probable) he has a chance to not have a set back because he has a good young core of sophs to work with in Carr, Kalscheur and Oturu.

But he will need to produce good spring recruiting help- a PF/C and a shooter at least. Pitino got it done with a steal of a find in lil Dre who was amazing that first year and he also got some good run out of Smith as a 6th man sniper. The roster Tubby handed him was not real good and it was an old roster. So this could be a good to really good situation for a new coach if he can find the right adds.

Marcus Carr is another good Sophmore.
We will have at least 4 scholarships open next year and maybe more (probably - Washington is gone) and rumors are Hurt may graduate and transfer.
We were up by 11 and then our super sub (Brock Stull) came in for 7 minutes and we went down by 1. Stull game stat line 10 minutes and 1 offensive rebound. It is embarrassing how Pitino has ruined Washington. There is no way that he plays 2 minutes against Nebraska, while Coffey/McBrayer play the entire second half without rest. Why wouldn't Coach Pitino ask the refs to review the out of bounds call with 2 seconds left in the game. McBrayer was not out of bounds.
 

Marcus Carr is another good Sophmore.
We will have at least 4 scholarships open next year and maybe more (probably - Washington is gone) and rumors are Hurt may graduate and transfer.
We were up by 11 and then our super sub (Brock Stull) came in for 7 minutes and we went down by 1. Stull game stat line 10 minutes and 1 offensive rebound. It is embarrassing how Pitino has ruined Washington. There is no way that he plays 2 minutes against Nebraska, while Coffey/McBrayer play the entire second half without rest. Why wouldn't Coach Pitino ask the refs to review the out of bounds call with 2 seconds left in the game. McBrayer was not out of bounds.

-I mentioned Carr.
-Stull had to play because Kalscheur got 2 fouls at the 10 minute mark (we were up 19-8) at the time. Could have played IW, who had already had a bad two minutes- I wish he had.
-Pitino may have ruined Washington, that's possible or Washington can't seem to adapt, or a combo of both. Washington has ability-no doubt and I wish Pitino had found a way with him. This is my biggest concern with Pitino this year and the point guard position has KILLED us this year. Coffey is a wing. McBrayer is a wing.
- The play is not reviewable

The game gets a lot more complex when you have to deal with what really happened.
 

1982 is really all we have.

The tournament run to the sweet sixteen and elite 8 were good, but we were 9-9 and 11-7 in the Big Ten those years. (89 and 90)

We'll never agree, then.

It's all about the postseason now. In 2014 Connecticut was 12-6 and the seventh seed in their conference tournament and won the national championship. But they can't count that year as something they "really have?" Or would 1990 count for us if we were 12-6 instead of 11-7?
 


We'll never agree, then.

It's all about the postseason now. In 2014 Connecticut was 12-6 and the seventh seed in their conference tournament and won the national championship. But they can't count that year as something they "really have?" Or would 1990 count for us if we were 12-6 instead of 11-7?

You are correct- all people remember now is the post season. The problem is, how do you differentiate coaching jobs when one coach gets left off the bubble at 9-9 and another gets in at 9-9 and and wins two games and is long remembered for it? It is a fine line.
 

-I mentioned Carr.
-Stull had to play because Kalscheur got 2 fouls at the 10 minute mark (we were up 19-8) at the time. Could have played IW, who had already had a bad two minutes- I wish he had.
-Pitino may have ruined Washington, that's possible or Washington can't seem to adapt, or a combo of both. Washington has ability-no doubt and I wish Pitino had found a way with him. This is my biggest concern with Pitino this year and the point guard position has KILLED us this year. Coffey is a wing. McBrayer is a wing.
- The play is not reviewable

The game gets a lot more complex when you have to deal with what really happened.

Stull should not have played a single minute. In fact, he should never have been recruited. He's bad and bad and bad and slow. Serriously, just call up all the D2 universities in state and have them send you their best shooter or player and pick the best one. Any of those would have been better than him.

IW should be playing. In fact he should be starting and running the 1. McBrayer hasn't been good at all this year. He needs to sit and let IW see what he can do. I was against this all year, but right now, their guard play is so poor, they need to change something.
 

We'll never agree, then.

It's all about the postseason now. In 2014 Connecticut was 12-6 and the seventh seed in their conference tournament and won the national championship. But they can't count that year as something they "really have?" Or would 1990 count for us if we were 12-6 instead of 11-7?

You're not wrong, you have a point.

It's just that .... usually ..... the two things go hand-in-hand. It's pretty rare to have a team that does mediocre in the regular season and then go on to win the natty. Similarly, rare that a team who crushes it regular season goes one-and-done in their conf tourny and the NCAA tourny.
 

He needs to sit and let IW see what he can do. I was against this all year, but right now, their guard play is so poor, they need to change something.

You may not be wrong, at all.

But it is clear, to me at least, that Pitino has seen things, things that he cannot overcome in his mind, that IW does not deserve to be on the floor. Maybe it's stuff in practice or meeting rooms, stuff we'd never know about. Or maybe it has more to do with what has happened in games.

Maybe it's something like "Isaiah, you don't listen to me. When I tell you to do something one way, you won't do it. You won't listen and follow orders. So I'm not going to play you". I made that up, but we don't know.
 



the point guard position has KILLED us this year. Coffey is a wing. McBrayer is a wing.

I know that this isn't a valid excuse and it's not a valid answer .... I know this, but I still feel compelled to say it anyway ....... Pitino went out and got Carr. He was supposed to be our PG this year.
 

You are correct- all people remember now is the post season. The problem is, how do you differentiate coaching jobs when one coach gets left off the bubble at 9-9 and another gets in at 9-9 and and wins two games and is long remembered for it? It is a fine line.

Good point. I'd say that not all 9-9 records are created equal. Between Clem's Elite Eight and Final Four runs were a lot of years on the bubble -- 9-9, 10-8, etc. But Williams Arena was still full and rocking. Why? Because at home, those teams could beat anybody. So in many cases those nine-win seasons included wins over the best teams in the Big Ten. And those wins also got us into the tournament. (I acknowledge many horrible road losses, too.)

If you hang around .500 without quality wins, the fans lose interest, and so does the NCAA tournament committee.
 

I know that this isn't a valid excuse and it's not a valid answer .... I know this, but I still feel compelled to say it anyway ....... Pitino went out and got Carr. He was supposed to be our PG this year.

no he wasn't....there really was no precedent before this year that you could take a transfer from a school that fired there coach and somehow hope he would get eligible.....

and this all comes back to Pitino then....putting all your eggs into the unknown basket of taking a transfer and somehow hoping he would become eligible immediately....that's not a very good tactic...

I think the reality was that Pitino talked himself into thinking Coffey could be an effective point guard....which looking back he was wrong....and look at all that practice time that was taken away from the only true point guard you had eligible (IW) to try Coffey at the point
 
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Good point. I'd say that not all 9-9 records are created equal. Between Clem's Elite Eight and Final Four runs were a lot of years on the bubble -- 9-9, 10-8, etc. But Williams Arena was still full and rocking. Why? Because at home, those teams could beat anybody. So in many cases those nine-win seasons included wins over the best teams in the Big Ten. And those wins also got us into the tournament. (I acknowledge many horrible road losses, too.)

If you hang around .500 without quality wins, the fans lose interest, and so does the NCAA tournament committee.

the good ol days, when williams arena was a tough place to get a road win. How I long for those days. The decay started with Monson, and has made its way to Pitino. We've basically lost a generation of fans knowing what the barn used to be
 



the good ol days, when williams arena was a tough place to get a road win. How I long for those days. The decay started with Monson, and has made its way to Pitino. We've basically lost a generation of fans knowing what the barn used to be

Gophers are 11-2 at home...I would not say that is bad
 

First, of all the players who would NOT transfer if there's a coaching change, it's Gabe and Daniel.

Second, if I'm Coyle and i make a change, i do more than just switch that piece and hope for the best. I would do a more comprehensive analysis of the situation and at least look into whether there are structural issues that make it overly difficult to compete in men's basketball here. Talk to a bunch of people including former coaches, players past and present and their families, people in the local basketball community, etc. Self examine whether there's anything the athletic department and administration can do differently to make things easier or more possible for the next coach. Give Sid at least the benefit of the doubt when he claims that these things might just have something to do with things and that, as he claims, UW had the same issues until Donna S. came in and put their coaches and administrators in a better position to succeed. We might find out that there are no issues and that we've just kissed a few frogs in the last 20 years. But look into it earnestly and thoroughly.

Consider the possibility that Clem was such an extraordinary coach that he succeeded in spite of any of these potential factors. And/or that these hypothetical factors drove him buggy and drove him to get lazy or desperate and cut corners.
 


no he wasn't....there really was no precedent before this year that you could take a transfer from a school that fired there coach and somehow hope he would get eligible.....

and this all comes back to Pitino then....putting all your eggs into the unknown basket of taking a transfer and somehow hoping he would become eligible immediately....that's not a very good tactic...

I think the reality was that Pitino talked himself into thinking Coffey could be an effective point guard....which looking back he was wrong....and look at all that practice time that was taken away from the only true point guard you had eligible (IW) to try Coffey at the point


I don't think Pitino ever wanted to have Coffey play the point. I think he wanted to use him to motivate IW and be insurance in case IW couldn't be molded.

I think he hoped that between McBrayer, Coffey and IW that they could get the job done. IW had been pretty good, despite mental lapses in the last 10 games of the prior season and it was reasonable to assume he would progress. I thought there were a couple of games that IW had, where following that he should have been given the start and handed the keys to the car. A complicating factor was the death of McBrayer's mom was a heart tugger and it might have seemed heartless to bench him in favor of IW in that time frame. The other possibility would have been to bring one of our better defenders, Gabe, off the bench.

Whatever Pitino did with IW- or whoever is to blame, it didn't work out and barring a rally, Pitino is going to get fired because he has had lousy point guard play this year. No point guard kills your offense.

There have been so many years where peripheral problems have damaged this program even when we are not caught cheating or something stupid.

Tubby should have had a great team with Royce White but lost him to the stupid lap top event. Then another year losing Mbakwe. Another losing Andre Hollins and then the Devoe Joseph stuff. Pitino has a great first year, then lil' Dre has a kid and his play goes south, McNeil gets in trouble and Hollins plays injured all year. Then the next year with a real promising freshman group- the sex scandal. A real good year and then the crap begins again with the disaster of last year. The IW issues, the decision on Carr, the Curry injury and the beat just keeps going on.
 

First, of all the players who would NOT transfer if there's a coaching change, it's Gabe and Daniel.

Second, if I'm Coyle and i make a change, i do more than just switch that piece and hope for the best. I would do a more comprehensive analysis of the situation and at least look into whether there are structural issues that make it overly difficult to compete in men's basketball here. Talk to a bunch of people including former coaches, players past and present and their families, people in the local basketball community, etc. Self examine whether there's anything the athletic department and administration can do differently to make things easier or more possible for the next coach. Give Sid at least the benefit of the doubt when he claims that these things might just have something to do with things and that, as he claims, UW had the same issues until Donna S. came in and put their coaches and administrators in a better position to succeed. We might find out that there are no issues and that we've just kissed a few frogs in the last 20 years. But look into it earnestly and thoroughly.

Consider the possibility that Clem was such an extraordinary coach that he succeeded in spite of any of these potential factors. And/or that these hypothetical factors drove him buggy and drove him to get lazy or desperate and cut corners.

Good post! That's how he got Bobby Jackson. Without him, Clem's run would have been pretty pedestrian save for years 3 and 4 in the post season. Just to repeat- I loved Clem and I think he did what a lot of coaches and programs do but others don't get caught. We are a D1 team in a big town with reporters roaming around looking for stories. The reporters have never had much love for the program, they are just writing stories (no knock on that). Lot's of programs get saved by the small college town loyalty of the locals and the scribes.
 
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Good post! That's how he got Bobby Jackson. Without him, Clem's run would have been pretty pedestrian save for years 3 and 4 in the post season

Clem's run wouldn't have been pedestrian for the U of MN.

Excluding the Bobby Jackson years, Cleam still went to the NCAA 4 years (including Elite 8 and Sweet 16 runs).
We had finished over .500 in the Big 10 4 straight years prior to the Bobby Jackson years.
 

I know that this isn't a valid excuse and it's not a valid answer .... I know this, but I still feel compelled to say it anyway ....... Pitino went out and got Carr. He was supposed to be our PG this year.

The only time I can recall this program getting a break in the past 15 years is when Mbakwe was cleared. Other than that, just about every situation I can think of has gone against us when it was decision time.
 

Hoiberg and saunders aren't coming here, so give up on that dream people, they are both staying in the NBA in a role of some sort.

Since you can tell the future, shall we go to Vegas?
How about Mystic?
 

Clem's run wouldn't have been pedestrian for the U of MN.

Excluding the Bobby Jackson years, Cleam still went to the NCAA 4 years (including Elite 8 and Sweet 16 runs).
We had finished over .500 in the Big 10 4 straight years prior to the Bobby Jackson years.

I think Clem was a great coach here...but in the eyes of the NCAA and the Big Ten- he was 48 and 78 and the last three NCAAs never happened. Actually, the NCAA recognizes our 98-99 appearance and the Big Ten doesn't. I can't remember what issues they found going backwards.
 

I think Clem was a great coach here...but in the eyes of the NCAA and the Big Ten- he was 48 and 78 and the last three NCAAs never happened. Actually, the NCAA recognizes our 98-99 appearance and the Big Ten doesn't. I can't remember what issues they found going backwards.

That's fine, but that's a different point than you were making earlier.
 

That's fine, but that's a different point than you were making earlier.

By the records.... it was pedestrian. I have always said that Clem was a coach I loved and a great developer of players. He had a good run here that I wish had not ended so badly or as soon as it did. He was on the verge of making this a very strong national program. I was a season ticket holder all through it as I remain today- I enjoyed it immensely until it ended.
 

The thing about this situation that makes me saddest isn't last night's game, this season's waning prospects, Pitino's record, or any of that. It's the posts on this board saying that this is the best that Minnesota can do as a basketball program; cherry picking previous years' results to make things look worse than they really were; and using all these false premises to advocate for settling for the current situation on the basis that we're not capable or deserving of anything better, so we need to just keep quiet as fans, be glad with this pathetic lot, and be passive and indifferent. I feel more and more out of step with this supposed fan base with every post of that sort i read. I can't believe we actually call this a fan base with these attitudes the way they are. "Fans" like these are our rivals' best friends.
 

The point is not that we cannot do better or that we deserve to be mired in this mess. The point is that people have artificial expectations about how easy this job should be. You have to frame that in the perspective of what has happened. The discussion is not whether the results Pitino is getting are acceptable or not. They are not acceptable. The question is- putting it all in on the table- is it better to move on and start over or is it worth staying the course?

In favor of staying is:
Pitino's age and the prospect that he will improve and be as good or better than the upcoming alternative
The circumstances he has encountered while here (last year) that were not of his own making
The history of the program over the last 40 years- does it call for patience?
Name brand coaches are not lining up for this job
Excellent academic record and good public relations

In favor of axing him
The record is poor
We might get a better coach
The fans (me included) are sick of losing
He's too unlucky
 

I thought I could still support Pitino but after watching last night I am sick of watching a third grade offense of passing it to Murphy and watching him spend 5-10 seconds backing his defender into the paint only to turn right into a double or triple team and put a garbage shot up. Zero adjustments or decent offense. No incoming recruits to be excited about. Average past recruiting classes (yes that includes the last one since only Oturo was highly rated or sought after). Cut our losses and get a decent coach.


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Going into the post (Murphy and Oturu) is our best chance to score. This is what brought back to tie the game last night. I have no problem with the play call to let Murphy drive as he converted the previous two times. Unfortunately he lowered his shoulder (again) and I think it was an accumulation call.
 

The point is not that we cannot do better or that we deserve to be mired in this mess. The point is that people have artificial expectations about how easy this job should be. You have to frame that in the perspective of what has happened. The discussion is not whether the results Pitino is getting are acceptable or not. They are not acceptable. The question is- putting it all in on the table- is it better to move on and start over or is it worth staying the course?

In favor of staying is:
Pitino's age and the prospect that he will improve and be as good or better than the upcoming alternative
The circumstances he has encountered while here (last year) that were not of his own making
The history of the program over the last 40 years- does it call for patience?
Name brand coaches are not lining up for this job
Excellent academic record and good public relations

In favor of axing him
The record is poor
We might get a better coach
The fans (me included) are sick of losing
He's too unlucky

In favor of axing him.....
-No identity on either the offensive or defensive end
-ignoring shooters when it comes to recruiting....other than Gabe and to a lesser extent Harris
-with the 2020 class being loaded with MN talent do we take the chance to have another non NCAA tourney team next year (cause looking at next year I see a step back) and fire him next year and get a coach in that's behind the 8 ball with the local talent? or make the change now and allow the new coach a year to gain the trust and relationship with the recruits.
 

How was recruiting those years?? Seems to me year three was a bit down

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Tubby's first class he just kept Nolen and Hoff who had committed to Monson. The first year is hard of course. But we only have one commit, so we're not losing much.

His next class was Ralph Sampson, Colton Iverson, Paul Carter and another guy I forget. Pretty good.

Year 3 was the best he had. Royce, Rodney, Mbakwe, Devoe Joseph.

Year 4: Elliot and Austin Hollins

Year 5: Andre Hollins and Joe Coleman.

Then it fell off. So no, the early recruiting years were not the issue.
 

Tubby's first class he just kept Nolen and Hoff who had committed to Monson. The first year is hard of course. But we only have one commit, so we're not losing much.

His next class was Ralph Sampson, Colton Iverson, Paul Carter and another guy I forget. Pretty good.

Year 3 was the best he had. Royce, Rodney, Mbakwe, Devoe Joseph.

Year 4: Elliot and Austin Hollins

Year 5: Andre Hollins and Joe Coleman.

Then it fell off. So no, the early recruiting years were not the issue.
I was referring to Pitino

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