Gopher basketball starting over

Exactly. If anyone does a comprehensive study of the non blue bloods that have built sustainable success, they built it with the three essentials you mentioned. When we win big games, which is rare,that is how we do it. We just do not do it with any consistency. The hard part is finding the guy that can make that the identity of the program, there are just not that many great coaches, same in every sport.
 

Several pages ago in this thread (I think, or maybe a different one) I tried to elaborate on an idea I have, that geography creates a statistical bias against us that we will always have to overcome in the two main revenue sports of MBB and football. It may not be correct ... but I think it is at least partially correct. For whatever little it is worth

Geography is not why Iowa and Wisconsin generally get better players than we do.
 

Here are the recruiting rankings by UW SINCE 2003 followed by conference wins, then same for the Gophers

UW wins Gophers wins

2003- 38 11 14 8
2004- 36 12 33 3
2005- 20 12 262 10
2006- 20 11 46 5
2007- 36 9 203 3
2008- 232 13 26 8
2009- 263 16 10 9
2010- 51 10 NR 9
2011- 43 13 54 6
2012- 61 13 75 6
2013- 38 12 91 8
2014- 130 12 64 8
2015- 44 16 39 6
2016- 104 12 30 2
2017- 35 12 71 11
2018- 73 7 45 4


So UW had 8 years of better recruiting, Gophers had 8. OVER that time UW has had 212 wins and we have 113. It is all coaching ! Gard is the 3rd fastest to 40 conference wins in Big 10 history in case anyone thought we were closing the gap. They find guys that both can and do play efficient, disciplined and blood letting defense. They had two 5 star players in that time Butch and Dekker. They had a whole bunch of guys who were 3 star kids that they made into a team.

In regards to Gard, his story as a head coach is incomplete at this point. It will be interesting to see what happens when he is forced to be the head coach of a Happ-less team (pun intended). Happ might be the most utilized player in college basketball (certainly, he must be among the 4s and 5s). He is the focal point of nearly every offensive possession, nearly always touching the ball and determining the direction of the offensive set. Another thing that might get overlooked is the fact that he frequently stays back when their possessions end in order to disrupt the flow of the opponent's possession, before sprinting back to play defense. They will have a difficult time replacing pieces of what he brings, let alone the entire package. It will certainly force Gard to change some of his strategies, probably for the first time in his tenure.
 

Geography is not why Iowa and Wisconsin generally get better players than we do.

Yeah, I don't think any of the Big Ten schools offer attractive destinations in regards to warm winter weather.
 

Several pages ago in this thread (I think, or maybe a different one) I tried to elaborate on an idea I have, that geography creates a statistical bias against us that we will always have to overcome in the two main revenue sports of MBB and football. It may not be correct ... but I think it is at least partially correct. For whatever little it is worth


I’m sorry I have not been able to find your analysis. I’m not sure what chronic geographical barriers you have in mind. I’ve lived most of my life on primarily the East Coast but some on the West Coast as well. I’ve also had the good fortune of traveling domestically and internationally extensively. I’m aware that for many people in this county Minneapolis is an obscure place located somewhere in fly-over country, but so are Madison, Wisconsin, and Lincoln, Nebraska, where successful Division I revenue programs have persisted for years. I’m old enough to know that was also true of Minnesota at one time for decades - at least in the case of football. What caused the decline in Minnesota’s revenue sports, in my view, was a push in the late 50s and early 60s by the Faculty Senate to de-emphasize inter-collegiate sports. We’ve never fully recovered from that, but, now, after years of neglect, we seem to have an administration and AD who are trying to change all of that. That gives me optimism for the future.
Without intending to demean either Madison or Lincoln, I don’t think either compare favorably with the amenities and opportunities available in the Twin Cities. The area consistently ranks at, or near the top, of a wide range of national quality of life evaluations. A few years ago, I read a quote made by a head hunter who said, as best as I can recall, “Minneapolis is a city where its almost impossible to get people to relocate to, and almost impossible to get them to leave once they have.” I just ran into an example of that this past week while receiving some medical care. Noting the Block M on my jacket, my nurse, a suburban Philadelphia native, struck up a conversation about her two years in Minneapolis with her California native husband, which they loved. She said they would have stayed forever had her husband not been transferred to the DC area. And I have a number of other examples of that as well. I always think we have a shot at anyone we can get on campus. It’s not only a nice area, but Minnesota offers good academics and facilities as well.
With respect to the local talent pool, this is an area where I perceived Minnesota has grown dramatically in recent years.
In short, I don’t see any insuperable recruiting barriers to a consistently competitive basketball program. It’s a matter of overcoming the years of mediocrity. I think that can be achieved with a strong commitment to the program.
 


In regards to Gard, his story as a head coach is incomplete at this point. It will be interesting to see what happens when he is forced to be the head coach of a Happ-less team (pun intended). Happ might be the most utilized player in college basketball (certainly, he must be among the 4s and 5s). He is the focal point of nearly every offensive possession, nearly always touching the ball and determining the direction of the offensive set. Another thing that might get overlooked is the fact that he frequently stays back when their possessions end in order to disrupt the flow of the opponent's possession, before sprinting back to play defense. They will have a difficult time replacing pieces of what he brings, let alone the entire package. It will certainly force Gard to change some of his strategies, probably for the first time in his tenure.

Agree completely. But i will put money on him succeeding. If we can not catch them this year then i think it will be very tough next year.
 

Geography is not why Iowa and Wisconsin generally get better players than we do.

I reject the premise that Iowa and Wisconsin get better players than Minnesota does. Maybe back in the George Raveling era Iowa somehow found all these great players and convinced them go to Iowa, but Tom Davis and all since have not been so great at recruiting. I think Fran is a decent recruiter though nothing elevates their talent above ours much.

Wisconsin gets the right players to run their oddball system, at least they did under Bo Ryan, but they were not exactly Kentucky or Duke type "better players", but the right players for the system. The other key is that that they knew to pick undervalued talent that they knew they could possibly develop. For every Kaminisky, Dekker, or Tucker, there were more than a few stiffs. I do not think too many blue bloods were knocking down Frank Kaminsky's door as great as a college player as he turned out to be.
 
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Geography is not why Iowa and Wisconsin generally get better players than we do.

I'm not sure they do get better players than us. Of course, a coach's rep does influence recruiting. Wisconsin had a Hall of Fame coach for about 18 years. With the exception of Todd Lickliter, Iowa has hired coaches who ranged from solid to very good since Lute Olson.

McCaffrey is a solid coach but his recruiting has been fairly unimpressive by Big Ten standards. Those coaches just got more out of their players than our coach. Case in point. Gabe Olesani was a raw African center (by way of England) who was recruited by McCaffrey out of Sunshine Christian Academy. He barely played his freshman year. In his soph year, he was not bad at all. In his last two years, he was pretty good center. Bakery Konate was also a raw African center recruited out of Sunshine Christian Academy and he was about two years older than Olesani when he was recruited. What was remarkable about Bakery was how little he improved in four years.
 

If we can not catch them this year then i think it will be very tough next year.

I don't agree with you there. We have had better recruiting than Wisconsin for quite some time now, and sooner or later it's going to show on the court. (For example, I think it's been four years in a row that Wisconsin has failed to land a higher ranked player than Minnesota). The Jarvis Johnson situation, along with IW not developing and Carr not being eligible, has delayed that longer than I thought it would, but still, we keep getting better players.

Also, obviously, they'll also be losing Happ. Reuvers has potential to be a nice player, but he's not Happ.

On the other hand, if we go through a coaching transition that could set us back a bit.
 



I don't agree with you there. We have had better recruiting than Wisconsin for quite some time now, and sooner or later it's going to show on the court. (For example, I think it's been four years in a row that Wisconsin has failed to land a higher ranked player than Minnesota). The Jarvis Johnson situation, along with IW not developing and Carr not being eligible, has delayed that longer than I thought it would, but still, we keep getting better players.

Also, obviously, they'll also be losing Happ. Reuvers has potential to be a nice player, but he's not Happ.

On the other hand, if we go through a coaching transition that could set us back a bit.
Agreed
 

Many were from Minn. - Jon Leuer, Kam Taylor, Jordan Taylor, Jared Bergren just off the top of my head. But generally his recruits are from the upper midwest - Kaminsky and Tucker were from IL, Koenigs and Dekker from WI.

Thanks. Yeah, that's the way to do it!
 

I'm still not sure what these built-in disadvantages are relative to the other Big Ten schools. To me, "built in" implies something that cannot be changed, so I don't see that. Also, many people considered Tubby Smith to be a big name, and his hiring did not occur that long ago.

Sure! That is the easy counter-example. But it also didn't work out "well" for us? Meaning, at least, I think if fans had the choice, they would not want another Tubby if it was pre-known that the results would be the same.

Obviously that's a silly thing to say, it's just to make the point.
 

Geography is not why Iowa and Wisconsin generally get better players than we do.

Madison is 147mi to Chicago, Iowa City is 221mi to Chicago.

Mpls is 408 miles.


That doesn't prove anything. My idea could be complete bunk. But at the very least, Madison and (to a slightly lesser extend) Iowa City are closer to the "primary zone" of Big Ten - Great Lakes population centers.
 



I’m sorry I have not been able to find your analysis. I’m not sure what chronic geographical barriers you have in mind. I’ve lived most of my life on primarily the East Coast but some on the West Coast as well. I’ve also had the good fortune of traveling domestically and internationally extensively. I’m aware that for many people in this county Minneapolis is an obscure place located somewhere in fly-over country, but so are Madison, Wisconsin, and Lincoln, Nebraska, where successful Division I revenue programs have persisted for years. I’m old enough to know that was also true of Minnesota at one time for decades - at least in the case of football. What caused the decline in Minnesota’s revenue sports, in my view, was a push in the late 50s and early 60s by the Faculty Senate to de-emphasize inter-collegiate sports. We’ve never fully recovered from that, but, now, after years of neglect, we seem to have an administration and AD who are trying to change all of that. That gives me optimism for the future.
Without intending to demean either Madison or Lincoln, I don’t think either compare favorably with the amenities and opportunities available in the Twin Cities. The area consistently ranks at, or near the top, of a wide range of national quality of life evaluations. A few years ago, I read a quote made by a head hunter who said, as best as I can recall, “Minneapolis is a city where its almost impossible to get people to relocate to, and almost impossible to get them to leave once they have.” I just ran into an example of that this past week while receiving some medical care. Noting the Block M on my jacket, my nurse, a suburban Philadelphia native, struck up a conversation about her two years in Minneapolis with her California native husband, which they loved. She said they would have stayed forever had her husband not been transferred to the DC area. And I have a number of other examples of that as well. I always think we have a shot at anyone we can get on campus. It’s not only a nice area, but Minnesota offers good academics and facilities as well.
With respect to the local talent pool, this is an area where I perceived Minnesota has grown dramatically in recent years.
In short, I don’t see any insuperable recruiting barriers to a consistently competitive basketball program. It’s a matter of overcoming the years of mediocrity. I think that can be achieved with a strong commitment to the program.

My post was #73, but essentially all I was saying is that being farther from the main Big Ten - Great Lakes population centers gives us a small statistical bias against us. And I also made the point that we do have some local talent that we should, in theory, be able to recruit, but that some kids want to get out of the state and go somewhere else.

Overall, I love your take, and I think there is a lot of truth to it.

I would only have a slight counter-argument to your "quality of life" statement about Mpls, which I think is absolutely true. And that is, for 18-22 year old young men, I don't think most of them care so much about that factor. IE quality of life, good place to raise a family, nice restaurants, etc. That is for later in life. You can have a "good time" in the middle of nowhere, in college. As long as the girls are hot, the music is loud, and the (cheap) alcohol is freely flowing, if you catch my drift.


Lincoln is an interesting, and different discussion, because it has not been a historic Big Ten school and would seem to be even farther isolated than Mpls from the Great Lakes. But then I could also reason that they're so far in the other direction, that they may have access to other population centers that traditional Big Ten schools just don't recruit at all.


Lastly, as far as Minnesota's decades ago football success ...... I do not know how much truth there is to the following idea, but I do believe there is some truth to it. I hear some people say, sometimes, that the reason Minnesota was so good back then was because they were one of the first schools to allow African-American players. So they were able to beat other schools that only allowed whites on their teams.

A similar type of idea applies again, to Lincoln in football. It has been argued that they took players that were criminals, that other programs would not take. And that back in those days, they were some of the first to truly develop weightlifting programs. People talk, who knows how much is true. I guess we will see what Frost can do there ... they obviously have a ton of fan support and money, and "recent" name recognition from their "recent" success ... but I do think it is wearing off. Just like Minnesota's success eventually did.
 
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I reject the premise that Iowa and Wisconsin get better players than Minnesota does. Maybe back in the George Raveling era Iowa somehow found all these great players and convinced them go to Iowa, but Tom Davis and all since have not been so great at recruiting. I think Fran is a decent recruiter though nothing elevates their talent above ours much.

Wisconsin gets the right players to run their oddball system, at least they did under Bo Ryan, but they were not exactly Kentucky or Duke type "better players", but the right players for the system. The other key is that that they knew to pick undervalued talent that they knew they could possibly develop. For every Kaminisky, Dekker, or Tucker, there were more than a few stiffs. I do not think too many blue bloods were knocking down Frank Kaminsky's door as great as a college player as he turned out to be.

So why don't we take undervalued talent and develop them into a system?

Why are we instead trying to do what Kentucky or Kansas does, knowing we can never recruit at that level?
 

Madison is 147mi to Chicago, Iowa City is 221mi to Chicago.

Mpls is 408 miles.


That doesn't prove anything. My idea could be complete bunk. But at the very least, Madison and (to a slightly lesser extend) Iowa City are closer to the "primary zone" of Big Ten - Great Lakes population centers.

I believe that high level programs can afford air fare for recruits. The Big Ten network and FS1 appear on cable and streaming packages all over Big Ten country (and many other places as well). If San Antonio, NYC, and Arkansas were not too far for our recruits, why would Chicago be?
 

I believe that high level programs can afford air fare for recruits. The Big Ten network and FS1 appear on cable and streaming packages all over Big Ten country (and many other places as well). If San Antonio, NYC, and Arkansas were not too far for our recruits, why would Chicago be?

No. That is not the point I am making.

For sure, the U of Minn would spend any reasonable amount that any other Big Ten school would spend, to bring in a top level recruit for anywhere in the nation (or Canada, etc.).


I'm talking about the willingness of recruits to come to Minnesota!
 

My post was #73, but essentially all I was saying is that being farther from the main Big Ten - Great Lakes population centers gives us a small statistical bias against us. And I also made the point that we do have some local talent that we should, in theory, be able to recruit, but that some kids want to get out of the state and go somewhere else.

Overall, I love your take, and I think there is a lot of truth to it.

I would only have a slight counter-argument to your "quality of life" statement about Mpls, which I think is absolutely true. And that is, for 18-22 year old young men, I don't think most of them care so much about that factor. IE quality of life, good place to raise a family, nice restaurants, etc. That is for later in life. You can have a "good time" in the middle of nowhere, in college. As long as the girls are hot, the music is loud, and the (cheap) alcohol is freely flowing, if you catch my drift.


Lincoln is an interesting, and different discussion, because it has not been a historic Big Ten school and would seem to be even farther isolated than Mpls from the Great Lakes. But then I could also reason that they're so far in the other direction, that they may have access to other population centers that traditional Big Ten schools just don't recruit at all.


Lastly, as far as Minnesota's decades ago football success ...... I do not know how much truth there is to the following idea, but I do believe there is some truth to it. I hear some people say, sometimes, that the reason Minnesota was so good back then was because they were one of the first schools to allow African-American players. So they were able to beat other schools that only allowed whites on their teams.

A similar type of idea applies again, to Lincoln in football. It has been argued that they took players that were criminals, that other programs would not take. And that back in those days, they were some of the first to truly develop weightlifting programs. People talk, who knows how much is true. I guess we will see what Frost can do there ... they obviously have a ton of fan support and money, and "recent" name recognition from their "recent" success ... but I do think it is wearing off. Just like Minnesota's success eventually did.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. There is truth to your point that for most 18-23-year-old men the quality of life factors that make the Twin Cities so special to me aren’t things they care much about at this stage of their life, but I still think the area does have somethings that do. One that comes immediately to mind is the Mall of America. I also recall reading repeated summaries of recruiting visits in which the recruits raved above being taken to a place where the food was “crazy good”. It turned out to be the Brazilian steakhouse, Fogo de Chão, in downtown Minneapolis. It inspired me to dine there the next time I was in Minneapolis and it proved to be an 18-year-old macho male athlete’s dream. All the red meat you can eat. I told the maître d’ that I credited his restaurant with turning the Gopher football program around.

I’m well aware of the period in which our early willingness to accept African-American players reinvigorated Gopher football. I was a student at the U from 1958-1962, and my last two years at Minnesota were our only trips to the Rose Bowl, both of which I attended. But that’s not the period I have in mind. What I meant was the 1940s and earlier when Minnesota won 6 of its 7 National Titles.

That period ended in 1950 when legendary coach Bernie Bierman retired after winning 5 national championships. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Bierman. He was replaced by Wes Felser, who previously had been head coach at Ohio State. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wes_Fesler. Felser did not do well and was replaced by Murray Warmath three years later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Warmath. Warmath had some initial success, but then began to flounder until he was able to recruit some key African-American athletes, with the help of a young, African-American, Star-Tribune journalist, by the name of Carl Rowan. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Rowan. Those recruits included future NFL stars, Bobby Bell, Carl Eller and Aaron Brown, plus the first black All-American quarterback, Sandy Stephens. Rowan’s son, Carl Jr., was briefly with my law firm.

There was a strong movement among the faculty at the time to follow the lead of the University of Chicago and drop out of the Big Ten to emphasize academics over athletics. In fact, as I recall, and I am old, that nearly happened. What prevented it, as I understand it, was the Gopher’s invitation to the Rose Bowl at the end of the 1961 season. The season before, under a contract between the Big Ten and what today we know as the Pac 12, Minnesota, as the Big Ten Conference Champion for the 1960 season, was automatically the Big Ten’s representative in the Rose Bowl game, which at that time was by far and away the most prestigious college football post-season event in the country. But that Rose Bowl pact with the Big Ten expired that year and after the 1961 season, the Rose Bowl was free to invited whomever they wanted to. They, nevertheless, wanted Minnesota, something that would not have happen under the pact as it had a bar against repeat appearances. There was pressure from other Big Ten schools to accept the invitation, as they would have lost a share of Rose Bowl revenues had the bid gone to a school from another conference. That pressure averted our leaving the conference but was followed by a de-emphasis of the revenue sports, which I believe has hurt us over the years.

Its against this background that I believe Minnesota can become competitive in the revenue sports if it is willing to make the investment needed to make that happen.
 

I believe that high level programs can afford air fare for recruits. The Big Ten network and FS1 appear on cable and streaming packages all over Big Ten country (and many other places as well). If San Antonio, NYC, and Arkansas were not too far for our recruits, why would Chicago be?

There is no where too far away. People can look at any roster of the top 25 programs and see where the players are from, they are from all over the USA and several countries. Find the players you can get that fit what you try and do and then develop and mold them into a great team.
 

Thanks for your thoughtful response. There is truth to your point that for most 18-23-year-old men the quality of life factors that make the Twin Cities so special to me aren’t things they care much about at this stage of their life, but I still think the area does have somethings that do. One that comes immediately to mind is the Mall of America. I also recall reading repeated summaries of recruiting visits in which the recruits raved above being taken to a place where the food was “crazy good”. It turned out to be the Brazilian steakhouse, Fogo de Chão, in downtown Minneapolis. It inspired me to dine there the next time I was in Minneapolis and it proved to be an 18-year-old macho male athlete’s dream. All the red meat you can eat. I told the maître d’ that I credited his restaurant with turning the Gopher football program around.

I’m well aware of the period in which our early willingness to accept African-American players reinvigorated Gopher football. I was a student at the U from 1958-1962, and my last two years at Minnesota were our only trips to the Rose Bowl, both of which I attended. But that’s not the period I have in mind. What I meant was the 1940s and earlier when Minnesota won 6 of its 7 National Titles.

That period ended in 1950 when legendary coach Bernie Bierman retired after winning 5 national championships. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Bierman. He was replaced by Wes Felser, who previously had been head coach at Ohio State. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wes_Fesler. Felser did not do well and was replaced by Murray Warmath three years later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Warmath. Warmath had some initial success, but then began to flounder until he was able to recruit some key African-American athletes, with the help of a young, African-American, Star-Tribune journalist, by the name of Carl Rowan. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Rowan. Those recruits included future NFL stars, Bobby Bell, Carl Eller and Aaron Brown, plus the first black All-American quarterback, Sandy Stephens. Rowan’s son, Carl Jr., was briefly with my law firm.

There was a strong movement among the faculty at the time to follow the lead of the University of Chicago and drop out of the Big Ten to emphasize academics over athletics. In fact, as I recall, and I am old, that nearly happened. What prevented it, as I understand it, was the Gopher’s invitation to the Rose Bowl at the end of the 1961 season. The season before, under a contract between the Big Ten and what today we know as the Pac 12, Minnesota, as the Big Ten Conference Champion for the 1960 season, was automatically the Big Ten’s representative in the Rose Bowl game, which at that time was by far and away the most prestigious college football post-season event in the country. But that Rose Bowl pact with the Big Ten expired that year and after the 1961 season, the Rose Bowl was free to invited whomever they wanted to. They, nevertheless, wanted Minnesota, something that would not have happen under the pact as it had a bar against repeat appearances. There was pressure from other Big Ten schools to accept the invitation, as they would have lost a share of Rose Bowl revenues had the bid gone to a school from another conference. That pressure averted our leaving the conference but was followed by a de-emphasis of the revenue sports, which I believe has hurt us over the years.

Its against this background that I believe Minnesota can become competitive in the revenue sports if it is willing to make the investment needed to make that happen.

Interesting information here. I had heard parts of this but didn’t realize there was serious talk about leaving the conference and dropping big time sports in the early 60’s.
 

Thanks for your thoughtful response. There is truth to your point that for most 18-23-year-old men the quality of life factors that make the Twin Cities so special to me aren’t things they care much about at this stage of their life, but I still think the area does have somethings that do. One that comes immediately to mind is the Mall of America. I also recall reading repeated summaries of recruiting visits in which the recruits raved above being taken to a place where the food was “crazy good”. It turned out to be the Brazilian steakhouse, Fogo de Chão, in downtown Minneapolis. It inspired me to dine there the next time I was in Minneapolis and it proved to be an 18-year-old macho male athlete’s dream. All the red meat you can eat. I told the maître d’ that I credited his restaurant with turning the Gopher football program around.

I’m well aware of the period in which our early willingness to accept African-American players reinvigorated Gopher football. I was a student at the U from 1958-1962, and my last two years at Minnesota were our only trips to the Rose Bowl, both of which I attended. But that’s not the period I have in mind. What I meant was the 1940s and earlier when Minnesota won 6 of its 7 National Titles.

That period ended in 1950 when legendary coach Bernie Bierman retired after winning 5 national championships. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Bierman. He was replaced by Wes Felser, who previously had been head coach at Ohio State. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wes_Fesler. Felser did not do well and was replaced by Murray Warmath three years later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Warmath. Warmath had some initial success, but then began to flounder until he was able to recruit some key African-American athletes, with the help of a young, African-American, Star-Tribune journalist, by the name of Carl Rowan. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Rowan. Those recruits included future NFL stars, Bobby Bell, Carl Eller and Aaron Brown, plus the first black All-American quarterback, Sandy Stephens. Rowan’s son, Carl Jr., was briefly with my law firm.

There was a strong movement among the faculty at the time to follow the lead of the University of Chicago and drop out of the Big Ten to emphasize academics over athletics. In fact, as I recall, and I am old, that nearly happened. What prevented it, as I understand it, was the Gopher’s invitation to the Rose Bowl at the end of the 1961 season. The season before, under a contract between the Big Ten and what today we know as the Pac 12, Minnesota, as the Big Ten Conference Champion for the 1960 season, was automatically the Big Ten’s representative in the Rose Bowl game, which at that time was by far and away the most prestigious college football post-season event in the country. But that Rose Bowl pact with the Big Ten expired that year and after the 1961 season, the Rose Bowl was free to invited whomever they wanted to. They, nevertheless, wanted Minnesota, something that would not have happen under the pact as it had a bar against repeat appearances. There was pressure from other Big Ten schools to accept the invitation, as they would have lost a share of Rose Bowl revenues had the bid gone to a school from another conference. That pressure averted our leaving the conference but was followed by a de-emphasis of the revenue sports, which I believe has hurt us over the years.

Its against this background that I believe Minnesota can become competitive in the revenue sports if it is willing to make the investment needed to make that happen.


Wow. Really fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing your memories.
 

I'm talking about the willingness of recruits to come to Minnesota!

I understand that even if John Calipari coached here he would not get the recruits he gets now. Most high level recruits are going to prefer going to places in North Carolina, Texas, California, Arizona, or even Kentucky/Tennessee over going here. But, there really isn't much difference in climate between here and Iowa or Wisconsin.
 

I understand that even if John Calipari coached here he would not get the recruits he gets now. Most high level recruits are going to prefer going to places in North Carolina, Texas, California, Arizona, or even Kentucky/Tennessee over going here. But, there really isn't much difference in climate between here and Iowa or Wisconsin.

Calipari got elite recruits at UMass. He has ways.
 

Gophers fans lack patience and have a short term memory. Remember, Jarvis Johnson would have been a guard on this year's Gophers Team. A great "get" for Pitino's first class. Remember, Curry didn't have to go to the U of M. Oturo had offers from the likes of KU. Pitino is regularly signing 1-2 of the top tier of in state players. If Johnson was able to play, Pitino's resume would look different. If certain players hadn't been injured / suspended, Pitino's resume would look different. If Carr had (rightfully, his "coach" was canned) been eligible, Pitino's resume would look different.

Picture this: Oturo, Murphy, Coffey, Johnson, Carr with MacBrayer, Curry (with 2 good knees), Washington, Hurt, Kalschuer, Stockman... If things go the way that Pitino envisioned, we are talking about a sweet 16 caliber team. And that my friends is a chip, chair & a chance situation.

Picture 2019-20: Oturo, Curry, Coffey, Carr, Kalschuer...That's a solid start. Oturo is improving daily and reminds me of a young McHale. He is clever with the ball, maintains balance, and is a superior athlete for a 6'10" 18 year old. Now imagine 1 shooter to plug and play in that lineup. Someone to stretch the D and create room for Oturo. Maybe it will be Kalschuer. He has a great looking stroke. Maybe Matthew Hurt will embrace the challenge of being "The Man" and pick the U of M. To me, the pieces are in place. Some things are out of a coach's control. Some athletes make bad choices. Some athletes get bad breaks. Perhaps thing will break the gopher's way soon.
 

Gophers fans lack patience and have a short term memory. Remember, Jarvis Johnson would have been a guard on this year's Gophers Team. A great "get" for Pitino's first class. Remember, Curry didn't have to go to the U of M. Oturo had offers from the likes of KU. Pitino is regularly signing 1-2 of the top tier of in state players. If Johnson was able to play, Pitino's resume would look different. If certain players hadn't been injured / suspended, Pitino's resume would look different. If Carr had (rightfully, his "coach" was canned) been eligible, Pitino's resume would look different.

Picture this: Oturo, Murphy, Coffey, Johnson, Carr with MacBrayer, Curry (with 2 good knees), Washington, Hurt, Kalschuer, Stockman... If things go the way that Pitino envisioned, we are talking about a sweet 16 caliber team. And that my friends is a chip, chair & a chance situation.

Picture 2019-20: Oturo, Curry, Coffey, Carr, Kalschuer...That's a solid start. Oturo is improving daily and reminds me of a young McHale. He is clever with the ball, maintains balance, and is a superior athlete for a 6'10" 18 year old. Now imagine 1 shooter to plug and play in that lineup. Someone to stretch the D and create room for Oturo. Maybe it will be Kalschuer. He has a great looking stroke. Maybe Matthew Hurt will embrace the challenge of being "The Man" and pick the U of M. To me, the pieces are in place. Some things are out of a coach's control. Some athletes make bad choices. Some athletes get bad breaks. Perhaps thing will break the gopher's way soon.

Agreed. Folks forget he would have had a great impact, and the team would not have been short on guards.
 

Gophers fans lack patience and have a short term memory. Remember, Jarvis Johnson would have been a guard on this year's Gophers Team. A great "get" for Pitino's first class. Remember, Curry didn't have to go to the U of M. Oturo had offers from the likes of KU. Pitino is regularly signing 1-2 of the top tier of in state players. If Johnson was able to play, Pitino's resume would look different. If certain players hadn't been injured / suspended, Pitino's resume would look different. If Carr had (rightfully, his "coach" was canned) been eligible, Pitino's resume would look different.

Picture this: Oturo, Murphy, Coffey, Johnson, Carr with MacBrayer, Curry (with 2 good knees), Washington, Hurt, Kalschuer, Stockman... If things go the way that Pitino envisioned, we are talking about a sweet 16 caliber team. And that my friends is a chip, chair & a chance situation.

Picture 2019-20: Oturo, Curry, Coffey, Carr, Kalschuer...That's a solid start. Oturo is improving daily and reminds me of a young McHale. He is clever with the ball, maintains balance, and is a superior athlete for a 6'10" 18 year old. Now imagine 1 shooter to plug and play in that lineup. Someone to stretch the D and create room for Oturo. Maybe it will be Kalschuer. He has a great looking stroke. Maybe Matthew Hurt will embrace the challenge of being "The Man" and pick the U of M. To me, the pieces are in place. Some things are out of a coach's control. Some athletes make bad choices. Some athletes get bad breaks. Perhaps thing will break the gopher's way soon.

None of what you posted about Pitno's resume looking different can be proven. I understand people want to support the coach but creating a narrative to fit your hopes doesn't make it fact.
 

Gophers fans lack patience and have a short term memory. Remember, Jarvis Johnson would have been a guard on this year's Gophers Team. A great "get" for Pitino's first class. Remember, Curry didn't have to go to the U of M. Oturo had offers from the likes of KU. Pitino is regularly signing 1-2 of the top tier of in state players. If Johnson was able to play, Pitino's resume would look different. If certain players hadn't been injured / suspended, Pitino's resume would look different. If Carr had (rightfully, his "coach" was canned) been eligible, Pitino's resume would look different.

Picture this: Oturo, Murphy, Coffey, Johnson, Carr with MacBrayer, Curry (with 2 good knees), Washington, Hurt, Kalschuer, Stockman... If things go the way that Pitino envisioned, we are talking about a sweet 16 caliber team. And that my friends is a chip, chair & a chance situation.

Picture 2019-20: Oturo, Curry, Coffey, Carr, Kalschuer...That's a solid start. Oturo is improving daily and reminds me of a young McHale. He is clever with the ball, maintains balance, and is a superior athlete for a 6'10" 18 year old. Now imagine 1 shooter to plug and play in that lineup. Someone to stretch the D and create room for Oturo. Maybe it will be Kalschuer. He has a great looking stroke. Maybe Matthew Hurt will embrace the challenge of being "The Man" and pick the U of M. To me, the pieces are in place. Some things are out of a coach's control. Some athletes make bad choices. Some athletes get bad breaks. Perhaps thing will break the gopher's way soon.

I like this idea ... but I think you’re discounting two things:

1) how is Pitino THAT unlucky, compared to his peers?

2) every high major program goes through some of the same stuff, every year
 

Overall Pitino's recruiting has been good but very inconsistent, with four openings this year is critical, if Jackson had stayed committed and signed recruiting wouldn't be an issue, still time but it will be tough which might impact the team for years to come
 

I like this idea ... but I think you’re discounting two things:

1) how is Pitino THAT unlucky, compared to his peers?

2) every high major program goes through some of the same stuff, every year

No. What happened last year (not Pitino's fault) and what happened three years ago (Pitino's fault for taking Dorsey) don't happen often. A program like this is just not going to be deep, prior to having success. Risks get taken to reach for guys with ability and sometimes they don't work out. When Michigan State or Michigan have a few injuries or someone is ineligible chances are the depth players were pretty highly sought kids and there might be a 5 star or two on the team that can carry the team through with the role players. Those schools don't have to take risks hoping to clean up character issues or fix fundamental flaws- they select from available players because there is a much bigger pool of kids that want their scholarship. A couple of years back Pitino was all over Tum Tum and Izzo hardly had him on his radar, but when he needed a point guard he reached out and snatched him even though we had worked him harder.

When the program wins for a few years then bad luck will have less of an affect on results.
 

None of what you posted about Pitno's resume looking different can be proven. I understand people want to support the coach but creating a narrative to fit your hopes doesn't make it fact.

+1


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