Gopher basketball starting over

Not for the right person. I changed companies in 1994 from an established operation to a department that a firm was revamping because it had recently been blacklisted by its biggest clients for poor work. Within a year and a half, we had completely rehabilitated our reputation and were getting more work than we knew what to do with. When I joined up, the department head told me that we were going to have to settle for crumbs that other firms didn't want, and that maybe we would start getting 6-figure contracts after several years of struggling and hard marketing. I told him that I didn't accept that and that we would be doing a whole lot better than that prediction. Within that year and a half, we got a job that ended up as multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars.

As I've told others, you can think as small as you want. If that's what you want, your job is not to lead; it's to follow or get out of the way.

do you know how to coach basketball?
 


Who coached the team in 2016?

A full season of wallowing in the silt of the conference is not offset by a couple weeks of fooling the top 25 voters the next year.

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2016 was a disaster and can't be excused by the suspensions that didn't happen until 4 games left. That was always going to be a down year, but they still had Mason, King, Murphy and McBreyer among others. It should been a 16-15 down year, not 9-22. That's on Richard.

In his 5 completed seasons, 2 were disasters and worse than they should have been, even when accounting for misfortune. Only year 1 and 5 did they perform at or above their talent level. Year 6 is TBD but not looking great.
 
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I like Pitino, which is a statement that is probably the equivalent of calling in artillery on your own position in combat. I think he is smart, decent, poised, communicates well, handles criticism well, and is willing to learn from his mistakes. I agree that he was probably not ready for a power five Division 1 coaching position at the time he was hired, but I view that as a produce of a University Administration and AD that were still unwilling to invest big bucks in our revenue sports at the time. And I also agree that any coach -no matter how likable - ultimately needs to be judged on his or her results; and, I, for one, want our program to rise to the VERY top.
I think Pitino’s 6 year 37-67 Big Ten conference record is a bit misleading. I don’t think any coach could have overcome the loss last year of four of his top 6 players early in the season. And I think that if we had survived our last second loss at Nebraska, most of us would be feeling more positive about this year. My own hope is that we can recover from that loss and to go on to an NCAA berth and win or two.
I disagree with critics of his recruiting. I agree, he had a number of misses early on, but I think last year’s class is very strong. Oturu is demonstrating that he deserved the four-star rating he was credited with, and I think Kalscheur has shown that he was under-rated by the services. Additionally, my understanding is that Omersa is the best athlete among them. I’m concerned about next year’s class, but there is time to address that. A strong finish to the season is likely to help a lot.
In the end, I think it’s up to Mark Coyle to decide what’s best for the program. I take heart from the fact that, with the support of Eric Kaler that I hope will continue under Joan Gabel, the University has demonstrated a much greater willingness to invest in the revenue sports. I think Coyle has made what appear to be a number of strong hiring decisions. I also understand that he did not hire Pitino, and he may well want his own person to head up the basketball program. But for the most part, I don’t believe that coaching changes often result in quick fixes, and that program stability is usually the key to long-term success. If Coyle does make a change, I hope that he will already have a strong replacement in hand before he makes that announcement.
 

bga1;169487 Clem had point guard issues as well although he got a couple of great years out of Eric Harris. We are on plan C.[/QUOTE said:
Ariel McDonald, Melvin Newbern, Eric Harris, Townsend Orr, Bobby Jackson Clem had it dicked compared to Pitino at the point guard position all of those guys could play the point much better than what we have had under Pitino.
 
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Not for the right person. I changed companies in 1994 from an established operation to a department that a firm was revamping because it had recently been blacklisted by its biggest clients for poor work. Within a year and a half, we had completely rehabilitated our reputation and were getting more work than we knew what to do with. When I joined up, the department head told me that we were going to have to settle for crumbs that other firms didn't want, and that maybe we would start getting 6-figure contracts after several years of struggling and hard marketing. I told him that I didn't accept that and that we would be doing a whole lot better than that prediction. Within that year and a half, we got a job that ended up as multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars.

As I've told others, you can think as small as you want. If that's what you want, your job is not to lead; it's to follow or get out of the way.

All true. Being bad in the past is a excuse. UW was worse than this minus one year with Stu Jackson on a quick fix with Rashard Griffith. They developed a long range plan that included losing because they listened to Bob Knight, Gene Keady and Al . They sold Richter on a master builder who had built absolute garbage programs into winners. So much that even without resources they came to his clinics to see what he was teaching. UVA was a dumpster nearly every year since 1995 but refused to settle and once again went to the same formula of selecting a proven builder instead of saying we will just staying the course. Villanova suffered for years and moved on from bad coaches to hire Wright on his history of building and the opinions of Knight, Calhoun and Boeheim. We can not compare Pitino to past Gopher coaches, they did not build sustainability and he does not compare to them anyways.
 

What I hear from some of our posters is that recruiting has been good, player development has been good, and coaching has been good, but the record has been objectively/historically bad. Those things don't add up. That reminds me of Twins' upper management's position for a number of years that everyone in the organization was doing a great job but that the run of losing was admittedly historically bad. Eventually they needed to break down and start firing people when the fans figured out that not everyone could possibly be doing such a great job if the record was so horrendously bad.
 

I like Pitino, which is a statement that is probably the equivalent of calling in artillery on your own position in combat. I think he is smart, decent, poised, communicates well, handles criticism well, and is willing to learn from his mistakes. I agree that he was probably not ready for a power five Division 1 coaching position at the time he was hired, but I view that as a produce of a University Administration and AD that were still unwilling to invest big bucks in our revenue sports at the time. And I also agree that any coach -no matter how likable - ultimately needs to be judged on his or her results; and, I, for one, want our program to rise to the VERY top.
I think Pitino’s 6 year 37-67 Big Ten conference record is a bit misleading. I don’t think any coach could have overcome the loss last year of four of his top 6 players early in the season. And I think that if we had survived our last second loss at Nebraska, most of us would be feeling more positive about this year. My own hope is that we can recover from that loss and to go on to an NCAA berth and win or two.
I disagree with critics of his recruiting. I agree, he had a number of misses early on, but I think last year’s class is very strong. Oturu is demonstrating that he deserved the four-star rating he was credited with, and I think Kalscheur has shown that he was under-rated by the services. Additionally, my understanding is that Omersa is the best athlete among them. I’m concerned about next year’s class, but there is time to address that. A strong finish to the season is likely to help a lot.
In the end, I think it’s up to Mark Coyle to decide what’s best for the program. I take heart from the fact that, with the support of Eric Kaler that I hope will continue under Joan Gabel, the University has demonstrated a much greater willingness to invest in the revenue sports. I think Coyle has made what appear to be a number of strong hiring decisions. I also understand that he did not hire Pitino, and he may well want his own person to head up the basketball program. But for the most part, I don’t believe that coaching changes often result in quick fixes, and that program stability is usually the key to long-term success. If Coyle does make a change, I hope that he will already have a strong replacement in hand before he makes that announcement.

Agree with much of this but there are coaches who would have done better than 2-16 one year. Last year was very unfortunate but there are coaches who would have done better than 4-14 and this year is not over yet but there are coaches that would be far better than 6-8 with this roster. There is not s single thing that tells me he is a superstar in waiting. The hardest part is hiring that guy that is. If that were easy than everyone would do it and then they would be special. Just once i want a coach who builds a multiple conference champion and gets NCAA wins.
 

What I hear from some of our posters is that recruiting has been good, player development has been good, and coaching has been good, but the record has been objectively/historically bad. Those things don't add up. That reminds me of Twins' upper management's position for a number of years that everyone in the organization was doing a great job but that the run of losing was admittedly historically bad. Eventually they needed to break down and start firing people when the fans figured out that not everyone could possibly be doing such a great job if the record was so horrendously bad.

IMO: recruiting C+; player development B; Coaching D+; Overall: C.

When you consistently average about 12 out of 14, that ain't good..
 



I like Pitino, which is a statement that is probably the equivalent of calling in artillery on your own position in combat. I think he is smart, decent, poised, communicates well, handles criticism well, and is willing to learn from his mistakes. I agree that he was probably not ready for a power five Division 1 coaching position at the time he was hired, but I view that as a produce of a University Administration and AD that were still unwilling to invest big bucks in our revenue sports at the time. And I also agree that any coach -no matter how likable - ultimately needs to be judged on his or her results; and, I, for one, want our program to rise to the VERY top.
I think Pitino’s 6 year 37-67 Big Ten conference record is a bit misleading. I don’t think any coach could have overcome the loss last year of four of his top 6 players early in the season. And I think that if we had survived our last second loss at Nebraska, most of us would be feeling more positive about this year. My own hope is that we can recover from that loss and to go on to an NCAA berth and win or two.
I disagree with critics of his recruiting. I agree, he had a number of misses early on, but I think last year’s class is very strong. Oturu is demonstrating that he deserved the four-star rating he was credited with, and I think Kalscheur has shown that he was under-rated by the services. Additionally, my understanding is that Omersa is the best athlete among them. I’m concerned about next year’s class, but there is time to address that. A strong finish to the season is likely to help a lot.
In the end, I think it’s up to Mark Coyle to decide what’s best for the program. I take heart from the fact that, with the support of Eric Kaler that I hope will continue under Joan Gabel, the University has demonstrated a much greater willingness to invest in the revenue sports. I think Coyle has made what appear to be a number of strong hiring decisions. I also understand that he did not hire Pitino, and he may well want his own person to head up the basketball program. But for the most part, I don’t believe that coaching changes often result in quick fixes, and that program stability is usually the key to long-term success. If Coyle does make a change, I hope that he will already have a strong replacement in hand before he makes that announcement.

Great post. Lot to agree with here.

If it had to be a change — would you be more interested in reaching down for a “builder” “up and comer” type, or want a P5 veteran type, or just defer to whatever Coyle wanted?
 

Ariel McDonald, Melvin Newbern, Eric Harris, Townsend Orr, Bobby Jackson Clem had it dicked compared to Pitino at the point guard position all of those guys could play the point much better than what we have had under Pitino.

Melvin Newbern is one of my all time favorites. But he was not really a point guard- he was a two who adapted because Clem didn't have a PG on that team. Good memory on Orr- I forgot him. Jackson was really a 2- Harris played the point. Jackson could play the point though- he could do almost anything and of course he did play the point in the pros which is a different game.
 

Great post. Lot to agree with here.

If it had to be a change — would you be more interested in reaching down for a “builder” “up and comer” type, or want a P5 veteran type, or just defer to whatever Coyle wanted?

In the end, I would probably defer to Coyle's judgment, but what I would hope for is someone that fans, players and recruits would all agree is a strong hire. Someone who would make people excited about the future. Someone has already thrown water on the idea of hiring Fred Hoilberg, but I think he would be an ideal choice. I think the Lindsey Whalen hiring is a good example of the kind of hire that I would like to see. But the key is a willingness to pay the big bucks for the right choice. We are going to have to spend money if we're going to jump-start the program and get the fans back in The Barn. I also think t is critical that the new hire be a fait accompli before it is announced if we are going to minimize the risk of player transfers and missing on recruits.
 

Hoiberg, Musselmen are all pipe dreams. We’ll get a decent Mid Major coach.
 



I'm fine with giving Pitino another year if someone can convince me that we will be better next year. But I just don't see it. What am I missing?

Another 10-10, 9-11 and we'll be having the same discussion all over again. If that's the case, do it now and get it over with.
 

He had three years where nothing bad happened to him and he was really good two of the three. I'd say this year he has not had real bad luck although the Washington thing really has hurt and I guess that has to be on him. This year is not over yet but thus far I would say his job rating this year has been sub par.

I would not give him another year unless he shows something down the stretch run.

You mention Washington. I think if we had Wright this year instead of IW, it would have made a HUGE difference. Hindsight, I know.


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Hoiberg, Musselmen are all pipe dreams. We’ll get a decent Mid Major coach.

I think the hire needs to be a LOT more than a “decent Mid Major Coach.” That would be reminiscent of the Dan Monson hire, and hardly likely to inspire the kind of excitement needed. If we can’t land someone with more sizzle, I don’t think it’s worth the effort.
 

Winning in college basketball is 80% recruiting and there are built-in recruiting challenges at Minnesota. Maybe a Fleck-like personality could pull it off but history tells us its damn hard to win here. Pitino is good coach and a good recruiter. At Minnesota you need to be a good coach and great recruiter to break even.
 

Winning in college basketball is 80% recruiting and there are built-in recruiting challenges at Minnesota. Maybe a Fleck-like personality could pull it off but history tells us its damn hard to win here. Pitino is good coach and a good recruiter. At Minnesota you need to be a good coach and great recruiter to break even.

What are the "built-in recruiting challenges" you see?
 

What are the "built-in recruiting challenges" you see?

Several pages ago in this thread (I think, or maybe a different one) I tried to elaborate on an idea I have, that geography creates a statistical bias against us that we will always have to overcome in the two main revenue sports of MBB and football. It may not be correct ... but I think it is at least partially correct. For whatever little it is worth
 

In the end, I would probably defer to Coyle's judgment, but what I would hope for is someone that fans, players and recruits would all agree is a strong hire. Someone who would make people excited about the future. Someone has already thrown water on the idea of hiring Fred Hoilberg, but I think he would be an ideal choice. I think the Lindsey Whalen hiring is a good example of the kind of hire that I would like to see. But the key is a willingness to pay the big bucks for the right choice. We are going to have to spend money if we're going to jump-start the program and get the fans back in The Barn. I also think t is critical that the new hire be a fait accompli before it is announced if we are going to minimize the risk of player transfers and missing on recruits.

Let's say the new president greenlights the $$$. Coyle can go out, and within reason, spend the money to put the new Gophers head coach into the top 25% of the Big Ten in terms of salary. Not sure what that is exactly, but guessing that's a pretty penny.

My thing is this ... even with that payday ..... even with the new practice facilities we have ........ it's going to mean that a relatively big name is going to have to decide to come to Minnesota, with the winters, with the built in disadvantages we have relative to our Big Ten peers, and try to rebuild this program.

And so my question: why would a big name take on that much of a challenge? Not saying it's impossible or that no one will rise to the task.
 

Winning in college basketball is 80% recruiting and there are built-in recruiting challenges at Minnesota. Maybe a Fleck-like personality could pull it off but history tells us its damn hard to win here. Pitino is good coach and a good recruiter. At Minnesota you need to be a good coach and great recruiter to break even.

What makes you think he is a good coach ? Bo Ryan was a good recruiter, great coach and got it done that way. Why not here.
 


What makes you think he is a good coach ? Bo Ryan was a good recruiter, great coach and got it done that way. Why not here.

I think if Pitino and Coach K switched rosters, Coach Pitino would have a top 5 team and Coach K would be on the NCAA bubble (but maybe a few more wins, who knows). Coach Pitino's teams are pretty well prepared, play hard, and generally execute what they are told to do. I think he connects pretty well with young players and I think he is a good coach who probably will get better.
 

Where, geographically, were Bo's greatest players from, on average?

Many were from Minn. - Jon Leuer, Kam Taylor, Jordan Taylor, Jared Bergren just off the top of my head. But generally his recruits are from the upper midwest - Kaminsky and Tucker were from IL, Koenigs and Dekker from WI.
 

Let's say the new president greenlights the $$$. Coyle can go out, and within reason, spend the money to put the new Gophers head coach into the top 25% of the Big Ten in terms of salary. Not sure what that is exactly, but guessing that's a pretty penny.

My thing is this ... even with that payday ..... even with the new practice facilities we have ........ it's going to mean that a relatively big name is going to have to decide to come to Minnesota, with the winters, with the built in disadvantages we have relative to our Big Ten peers, and try to rebuild this program.

And so my question: why would a big name take on that much of a challenge? Not saying it's impossible or that no one will rise to the task.

I'm still not sure what these built-in disadvantages are relative to the other Big Ten schools. To me, "built in" implies something that cannot be changed, so I don't see that. Also, many people considered Tubby Smith to be a big name, and his hiring did not occur that long ago.
 

I think if Pitino and Coach K switched rosters, Coach Pitino would have a top 5 team and Coach K would be on the NCAA bubble (but maybe a few more wins, who knows). Coach Pitino's teams are pretty well prepared, play hard, and generally execute what they are told to do. I think he connects pretty well with young players and I think he is a good coach who probably will get better.

Many coaches could take the Duke roster and be top 5. There are coaches who would do a whole lot better than Pitino does with this team. You think we execute well ! Do you think we play defense well ? We are watching the same thing but what we see is entirely different. With what you see we should never fire Pitino ! What would ever be the point. I have seen a team that has not played all out on several occasions and often seem lost or confused.
 

I think if Pitino and Coach K switched rosters, Coach Pitino would have a top 5 team and Coach K would be on the NCAA bubble (but maybe a few more wins, who knows). Coach Pitino's teams are pretty well prepared, play hard, and generally execute what they are told to do. I think he connects pretty well with young players and I think he is a good coach who probably will get better.

The problem with your 80 % argument is that great non blue blood (who select amazing talent) coaches recruit players that can fit what they teach so in fact they are coaching when they recruit. Then they mold those skills into a cohesive, tough and highly efficient machine that wins a ton of games. We do very poorly. Tomorrow i will share the recruiting rankings of Bo Ryans teams and their results versus ours. It is astounding what he got out of his guys because he could instill efficiency, defense and toughness into his players.
 

Here are the recruiting rankings by UW SINCE 2003 followed by conference wins, then same for the Gophers

UW wins Gophers wins

2003- 38 11 14 8
2004- 36 12 33 3
2005- 20 12 262 10
2006- 20 11 46 5
2007- 36 9 203 3
2008- 232 13 26 8
2009- 263 16 10 9
2010- 51 10 NR 9
2011- 43 13 54 6
2012- 61 13 75 6
2013- 38 12 91 8
2014- 130 12 64 8
2015- 44 16 39 6
2016- 104 12 30 2
2017- 35 12 71 11
2018- 73 7 45 4


So UW had 8 years of better recruiting, Gophers had 8. OVER that time UW has had 212 wins and we have 113. It is all coaching ! Gard is the 3rd fastest to 40 conference wins in Big 10 history in case anyone thought we were closing the gap. They find guys that both can and do play efficient, disciplined and blood letting defense. They had two 5 star players in that time Butch and Dekker. They had a whole bunch of guys who were 3 star kids that they made into a team.
 

I think if Pitino and Coach K switched rosters, Coach Pitino would have a top 5 team and Coach K would be on the NCAA bubble (but maybe a few more wins, who knows). Coach Pitino's teams are pretty well prepared, play hard, and generally execute what they are told to do. I think he connects pretty well with young players and I think he is a good coach who probably will get better.

They do not play hard, they do not play good defense and they generally are very stagnant on offense.
 

Here are the recruiting rankings by UW SINCE 2003 followed by conference wins, then same for the Gophers

UW wins Gophers wins

2003- 38 11 14 8
2004- 36 12 33 3
2005- 20 12 262 10
2006- 20 11 46 5
2007- 36 9 203 3
2008- 232 13 26 8
2009- 263 16 10 9
2010- 51 10 NR 9
2011- 43 13 54 6
2012- 61 13 75 6
2013- 38 12 91 8
2014- 130 12 64 8
2015- 44 16 39 6
2016- 104 12 30 2
2017- 35 12 71 11
2018- 73 7 45 4


So UW had 8 years of better recruiting, Gophers had 8. OVER that time UW has had 212 wins and we have 113. It is all coaching ! Gard is the 3rd fastest to 40 conference wins in Big 10 history in case anyone thought we were closing the gap. They find guys that both can and do play efficient, disciplined and blood letting defense. They had two 5 star players in that time Butch and Dekker. They had a whole bunch of guys who were 3 star kids that they made into a team.

This is exactly right and the only way to win at a program like ours.

The Blue bloods get the best players so it is easy for them. The NCAA lets them pay their players, do their homework, etc and look the other way. It doesn't work like that for the rest of them so if you want to be successful you need to run a true system. Great defense and rebounding, don't turn the ball over, be tough as nails. That is literally all it takes as long as you have some talent that can at least compete.
 




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