Gopher basketball starting over

Oh, shut up you fascist dolt. We can feel whatever we like and you can take a flying leap off the moon. The fact that we post here regularly and have watched every (or almost every) game for years should be clear evidence that we care about the program. We want a better program and that's why we no longer want Pitino.

LOL must have hit pretty close to home with the "drama queen" comment for you to get all riled up like that...
 

LOL must have hit pretty close to home with the "drama queen" comment for you to get all riled up like that...

I didn't notice the drama queen comment and I couldn't care less about that. I just don't like ass wipes who feel they decide who is a real fan, a real American, or a real whatever.
 
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No one ever talks about defense. Our last 6 years of defensive rankings and record.

2019- 67 6-8
2018- 152 4-14
2017- 22 11-7
2016- 163 2-16
2015- 90 6-12
2014- 78 8-12

There is a direct connect to success from defense and there is zero chance to be a program that is consistently a top 30 program without being a top 25 defense. Nor is their any reason to not be a top 25 defense. As for recruiting, the programs i track every metric and every recruit what stands out is the awesome care that the winners take in over emphasizing of the intangibles in recruiting. Character, great hands (critical to always catch and pass and handle without error. Can the player play with his head up at all times, what kind of awareness does he have, reaction time, preprioception, How unselfish, conditioning, Grades ! Charity work. Anyone can see how big they are, how fast, how high they jump, how easily they dunk. I want to know how quick they are, not how fast they are. Basketball is played in a small space, plays made in even smaller spaces. The best coaches (not counting blue bloods because they select the best talent ) implement all of this starting at a pre scout. They find guys that outplay 90 % of the 5 stars, especially when molded into a team. They have a better eye, better message, a better plan and better execution. They are simply better and super hard to find. Winning is really tough but i have studied how it gets done in a power conference at a non blue blood. It is all based on hard facts. You find guys before they blow up, before they have the 4th star and you get them early. Then after you touch success you get better players, still not varying from your non negotiables. Find pieces, find your shooters, find your screeners, your hedgers, your reps on the floor, off the floor. Run away from pushy parents who think they have a say. Run away from truants. I can list so many guys who were low stars when first offered then moved up after committing .Then kept getting better, then won conference titles and more. Finding those special coaches is so rare and you know when you see it right away. When they are not you can tell damn soon. The special ones have command of a presence , a charisma that comes from a authentic connection to all that they are. Every single one believes in stopping other people from scoring, working for good shots and not turning the ball over.

Who coached the team in 2017? #22 in the nation. Not bad. Could this have anything to do with players? Clearly last year we didn't have a full team of Big Ten players.
 

Who coached the team in 2017? #22 in the nation. Not bad. Could this have anything to do with players? Clearly last year we didn't have a full team of Big Ten players.

What of all the years ! What of right now ! What of building with character and a keen eye and having those players become a great team ? What of that pesky little fact of 37-67 . I pointed out the good defense of one year but what about those others. You rely on last year as a excuse. Excuses are for losers. After you add it all up it is a bad eye for character, below average for skills, below average teaching and poor defense. That equals 37-67. There is not another way of grading than character and wins and losses.
 

What of all the years ! What of right now ! What of building with character and a keen eye and having those players become a great team ? What of that pesky little fact of 37-67 . I pointed out the good defense of one year but what about those others. You rely on last year as a excuse. Excuses are for losers. After you add it all up it is a bad eye for character, below average for skills, below average teaching and poor defense. That equals 37-67. There is not another way of grading than character and wins and losses.

That year is indicative that he can get it done with a full roster. Would have happened last year too. Not good enough this year-yet. Had we had a full roster last year we would be looking at a 6 year record that is right on par with the program average. I readily concur that it still would not be good enough but it would be a fairer indication of where Pitino is at in his career. He will get better. Better than the next coach? I don't know. The day a new coach is hired, I will be behind him. I want the Gophers to win and win big. Just like you. Historically, switching coaches hasn't been working but perhaps the next one will and I certainly hope for that if it comes to pass.
 


Who coached the team in 2017? #22 in the nation. Not bad. Could this have anything to do with players? Clearly last year we didn't have a full team of Big Ten players.
Who coached the team in 2016?

A full season of wallowing in the silt of the conference is not offset by a couple weeks of fooling the top 25 voters the next year.

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You still need to recruit the "right" top players for your program. During the last two coaching tenures, with the exception of Murphy, we haven't had any recruits exceed expectations. That is either a player selection issue, a player development issue or both.

Nate Mason became better than TUm Tum. I say Pitino developed him nicely.
 

a few scattered thoughts:

When people talk about a history of mediocre teams, I think they're selling Dutcher short. the '76-77 team may have been the best team in Gopher history. Ineligible for post-season play because of violations under Musselman - but they beat the eventual national champs from Marquette. Younger fans may not remember those years, but McHale, Thompson, Ray Williams, Flip, Lockhart - damn good teams.

And as far as Pitino- let's be honest, it's not like Pitino was the hottest prospect in the country and the Gophers beat out a bunch of other schools to grab him. Teague took a chance on a young coach with a small track record and a famous last name. And that was after the Gophers failed to land any of their other candidates.

In retrospect, coming to MN may have been a bad move for Pitino. If he had stayed in Florida and built up his resume, he would have landed a major-college job one day - but at a time when he was more ready for it.

If the Gophers make a change, I just want the next coach to come in here with a system, and build a team that has an identity. I'm sorry, but to me, it looks like Pitino is playing 'scrabble' - draw (recruit) a few pieces, then see if they can spell out anything. I want a coach who knows what type of team he wants to run, and goes out and lands players who fit that system - so when he recruits, he can tell them exactly what their role will be.
 

Nate Mason became better than TUm Tum. I say Pitino developed him nicely.

Oturu is making excellent in season progress.....
Joey King got better.
Mo Walker got better under Pitino
Mason as you said.
Murphy
Coffey has gotten much better (still needs more consistency)
Gabe is exceeding expectations
 



a few scattered thoughts:

When people talk about a history of mediocre teams, I think they're selling Dutcher short. the '76-77 team may have been the best team in Gopher history. Ineligible for post-season play because of violations under Musselman - but they beat the eventual national champs from Marquette. Younger fans may not remember those years, but McHale, Thompson, Ray Williams, Flip, Lockhart - damn good teams.

And as far as Pitino- let's be honest, it's not like Pitino was the hottest prospect in the country and the Gophers beat out a bunch of other schools to grab him. Teague took a chance on a young coach with a small track record and a famous last name. And that was after the Gophers failed to land any of their other candidates.

In retrospect, coming to MN may have been a bad move for Pitino. If he had stayed in Florida and built up his resume, he would have landed a major-college job one day - but at a time when he was more ready for it.

If the Gophers make a change, I just want the next coach to come in here with a system, and build a team that has an identity. I'm sorry, but to me, it looks like Pitino is playing 'scrabble' - draw (recruit) a few pieces, then see if they can spell out anything. I want a coach who knows what type of team he wants to run, and goes out and lands players who fit that system - so when he recruits, he can tell them exactly what their role will be.

Good post SON. A concern is - what if we are starting over after going through Pitino's learning curve and we dump him before he becomes a better coach. We have a couple seasons that show he can do it. One season where nobody could have done it (last year) with the luck we had.

As to your last sentence- I am confident that Pitino can do that and knows what he wants guys to do. The IW situation, whoever is a fault, has killed this team's upside, so far.
 

Hoiberg and saunders aren't coming here, so give up on that dream people, they are both staying in the NBA in a role of some sort.

Most likely true. But how about Musselman?
 

Most likely true. But how about Musselman?

I would love to have Musselman because I think he’s a strong coach and recruiter, but if not for the very tenuous connection to his father coaching here nearly 50 years ago (and a lesser extent the Wolves 30 years ago), why would he come here? He’s going to have plenty of options that include bigger, more historically successful programs (e.g. UCLA) with fewer roadblocks to success. I just don’t see him choosing Minnesota.
 

Good post SON. A concern is - what if we are starting over after going through Pitino's learning curve and we dump him before he becomes a better coach. We have a couple seasons that show he can do it. One season where nobody could have done it (last year) with the luck we had.

As to your last sentence- I am confident that Pitino can do that and knows what he wants guys to do. The IW situation, whoever is a fault, has killed this team's upside, so far.

What if he never gets the program to be above .500 every single year for 5 years. I am looking for a level we have not reached. What indications do you see to suggest that he will become great ? Iam still waiting to see a sign that says he might become good. He recruits just ok, good enough to win but over 6 years we have not become the program that sets precise screens, looks for good shots, takes care of the ball and gets low and wide on defense. All the little details in doing all the fundamentals well all the time are missing. I have seen better defense this month and better turnover control , but the defense can not be ok, it has to be fantastic !
 



Who coached the team in 2017? #22 in the nation. Not bad. Could this have anything to do with players? Clearly last year we didn't have a full team of Big Ten players.
Cherry picking at its finest, right here folks. The difference was Reggie Lynch who was hounded out of the University because of issues that Pitino was aware of, but did not take to the A.D. for fear of losing him, which ironically happened anyway.

One out of six years does not excellence make, though it makes people comfortable with mediocrity.

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Cherry picking at its finest, right here folks. The difference was Reggie Lynch who was hounded out of the University because of issues that Pitino was aware of, but did not take to the A.D. for fear of losing him, which ironically happened anyway.

One out of six years does not excellence make, though it makes people comfortable with mediocrity.

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Yep. The record doesn't lie: only Rutgers and Penn St. with less B10 wins last 6 years...ughh. One NCAA with no wins.
2 historically bad B10 records; recruiting looks to be in downtrend.

The bottom line for me is make the NCAA this year and see what happens next year. Don't even need tourney win this year.
Don't make it- he gone.
 

The straw man argument that weaves its way through this whole thing is that the people who are questioning whether we should stick with Pitino think he's a terrible coach who can't do anything right. In reality, I haven't heard one person say that. The problem is that you need to be more than an average, above average, or even a very good coach in order to tread water in this conference. Only excellent coaches stick around in the Big Ten for very long. If you don't have an excellent coach, you're going to have a sub-.500 conference record. Pitino is not an excellent coach, and he has a sub-.500 conference record. How is that surprising?
 

Cherry picking at its finest, right here folks. The difference was Reggie Lynch who was hounded out of the University because of issues that Pitino was aware of, but did not take to the A.D. for fear of losing him, which ironically happened anyway.

One out of six years does not excellence make, though it makes people comfortable with mediocrity.

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Oh - I see you are in Pitino's mind now. I am sure that Pitino knew that there were issues in Lynch's past and they talked them through. No one other than Lynch and the young lady know what happened in the incident that was what- a year or two prior? I assume that you are saying that by this same logic that Mbakwe should not have been given a chance to play at the U either??

I believe in high standards for behavior and don't endorse what either may have done in their past. However, I also don't throw people away when they error. You might be perfect. Not sure. :rolleyes:

The point was that we were 22nd ranked on defense that year and we would likely have been as good or better the next- and then disaster struck. It shows that he can coach.
 

The straw man argument that weaves its way through this whole thing is that the people who are questioning whether we should stick with Pitino think he's a terrible coach who can't do anything right. In reality, I haven't heard one person say that. The problem is that you need to be more than an average, above average, or even a very good coach in order to tread water in this conference. Only excellent coaches stick around in the Big Ten for very long. If you don't have an excellent coach, you're going to have a sub-.500 conference record. Pitino is not an excellent coach, and he has a sub-.500 conference record. How is that surprising?

Yes. The biggest excuse seems to be that many things outside of his control happened. Seemingly every year in six years. And that isn’t fair to him.

But six years? He’s either the most unlucky coach in DI, or that stuff happens to everyone, every year, and good coaches know how to plan for it and overcome it with who they have. The latter makes sense to me, and clearly Pitino hasn’t figured it out.

You could say give him another year. Well, this year seems like a fairly talented, injury free roster in the Big Ten season, and he hasn’t got it done. Next year we lose Murphy, probably lose IW, and gain Carr and Willis. Will that team be much better?? Will Pitino have figured something out?? Will we avoid Pitino’s “bad luck” two years in a row?? Seems like the answer to these is all “doubtful”.
 

The straw man argument that weaves its way through this whole thing is that the people who are questioning whether we should stick with Pitino think he's a terrible coach who can't do anything right. In reality, I haven't heard one person say that. The problem is that you need to be more than an average, above average, or even a very good coach in order to tread water in this conference. Only excellent coaches stick around in the Big Ten for very long. If you don't have an excellent coach, you're going to have a sub-.500 conference record. Pitino is not an excellent coach, and he has a sub-.500 conference record. How is that surprising?

Can you name a Gopher coach since Musselman who was anywhere near a .500 in conference coach? Good luck. I will agree that Pitino is not an excellent coach yet. I hope the next guy knocks it out of the park here, but it would break a 40 year spell and it is not an easy task. Pitino, badly as people want him gone here, was really on the verge of breaking the spell.
 


Yes. The biggest excuse seems to be that many things outside of his control happened. Seemingly every year in six years. And that isn’t fair to him.

But six years? He’s either the most unlucky coach in DI, or that stuff happens to everyone, every year, and good coaches know how to plan for it and overcome it with who they have. The latter makes sense to me, and clearly Pitino hasn’t figured it out.

You could say give him another year. Well, this year seems like a fairly talented, injury free roster in the Big Ten season, and he hasn’t got it done. Next year we lose Murphy, probably lose IW, and gain Carr and Willis. Will that team be much better?? Will Pitino have figured something out?? Will we avoid Pitino’s “bad luck” two years in a row?? Seems like the answer to these is all “doubtful”.

He had three years where nothing bad happened to him and he was really good two of the three. I'd say this year he has not had real bad luck although the Washington thing really has hurt and I guess that has to be on him. This year is not over yet but thus far I would say his job rating this year has been sub par.

I would not give him another year unless he shows something down the stretch run.
 

Can you name a Gopher coach since Musselman who was anywhere near a .500 in conference coach? Good luck. I will agree that Pitino is not an excellent coach yet. I hope the next guy knocks it out of the park here, but it would break a 40 year spell and it is not an easy task. Pitino, badly as people want him gone here, was really on the verge of breaking the spell.

I'm not talking about past Gopher coaches. I'm talking about past and present Big Ten coaches and future Gopher coaches. There is no sense in hell dwelling on one's past. Dwelling on the past is for losers. Programs that have established success have not let past troubles define them.
 
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He had three years where nothing bad happened to him and he was really good two of the three. I'd say this year he has not had real bad luck although the Washington thing really has hurt and I guess that has to be on him. This year is not over yet but thus far I would say his job rating this year has been sub par.

I would not give him another year unless he shows something down the stretch run.

Washington has hurt, but what angers me more is that there's no option B. How many other teams have only one point guard on the roster? And I don't mean we should have two great ones, but at least a second guy who can play the position without forcing you to jumble the rest of the lineup. In fairness, besides Mason, point guard has been a problem here since the Monson days.

Roster management has been one of Pitino's major problems throughout his tenure. We always seem to be short a few scholarship players. It gives us less margin for error when, for example, Lynch gets pulled away or Washington is slow to meet expectations.
 

There you go. That was the point I was trying to make.

If Pitino has a competent general manager, to manage the roster for him, then perhaps he could win.
 

Washington has hurt, but what angers me more is that there's no option B. How many other teams have only one point guard on the roster? And I don't mean we should have two great ones, but at least a second guy who can play the position without forcing you to jumble the rest of the lineup. In fairness, besides Mason, point guard has been a problem here since the Monson days.

Roster management has been one of Pitino's major problems throughout his tenure. We always seem to be short a few scholarship players. It gives us less margin for error when, for example, Lynch gets pulled away or Washington is slow to meet expectations.

So true, the way recruiting is shaping up it will happen again next year, I expect at least one sit out transfer and maybe two again. The way Pitino has managed things they are utilizing 11/12 scholarships on average.
 

Washington has hurt, but what angers me more is that there's no option B. How many other teams have only one point guard on the roster? And I don't mean we should have two great ones, but at least a second guy who can play the position without forcing you to jumble the rest of the lineup. In fairness, besides Mason, point guard has been a problem here since the Monson days.

Roster management has been one of Pitino's major problems throughout his tenure. We always seem to be short a few scholarship players. It gives us less margin for error when, for example, Lynch gets pulled away or Washington is slow to meet expectations.

Honestly, I cannot think of a time where I felt we had two real point guards on the squad going back over the last 20+ years. For some reason that has been a real problem here. Tubby faced it- other than Nolen left by Monson, he patched the position with two guards (Andre Hollins and Devoe Joseph). Monson had trouble at PG all through his tenure and got the one good year out of Aaron Robinson. Burleson was not really a PG. Clem had point guard issues as well although he got a couple of great years out of Eric Harris.

I would say that Pitino thought he had several potential options. Plan A- Washington. Plan B- Carr eligible Plan C- Coffey and McBrayer.

We are on plan C.
 

Can you name a Gopher coach since Musselman who was anywhere near a .500 in conference coach? Good luck. I will agree that Pitino is not an excellent coach yet. I hope the next guy knocks it out of the park here, but it would break a 40 year spell and it is not an easy task. Pitino, badly as people want him gone here, was really on the verge of breaking the spell.
Jim Dutcher. 98-89 conference record before sanctions changed to 83-89. Light years ahead of any of the past several coaches. And he coached back when the B10 mattered on the national stage


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I'm not talking about past Gopher coaches. I'm talking about past and present Big Ten coaches and future Gopher coaches. There is no sense in hell dwelling on one's past. Dwelling on the past is for losers. Programs that have established success have not let past troubles define them.

Of course. But a lousy past record does make for a tougher job.
 

Can you name a Gopher coach since Musselman who was anywhere near a .500 in conference coach? Good luck. I will agree that Pitino is not an excellent coach yet. I hope the next guy knocks it out of the park here, but it would break a 40 year spell and it is not an easy task. Pitino, badly as people want him gone here, was really on the verge of breaking the spell.
Clem was 119-120 in conference also


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Of course. But a lousy past record does make for a tougher job.

Not for the right person. I changed companies in 1994 from an established operation to a department that a firm was revamping because it had recently been blacklisted by its biggest clients for poor work. Within a year and a half, we had completely rehabilitated our reputation and were getting more work than we knew what to do with. When I joined up, the department head told me that we were going to have to settle for crumbs that other firms didn't want, and that maybe we would start getting 6-figure contracts after several years of struggling and hard marketing. I told him that I didn't accept that and that we would be doing a whole lot better than that prediction. Within that year and a half, we got a job that ended up as multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars.

As I've told others, you can think as small as you want. If that's what you want, your job is not to lead; it's to follow or get out of the way.
 




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