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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by ethomasp31 View Post
    What about onside kicks then.....there would be no chance if a team is behind two scores late in the game.
    They addressed that. Read the OP.


  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrC View Post
    Having a bit of trouble following. Are you saying that the authors of the study fabricated the data? That the NFL did not collect the data?

    Here is a quote directly from the study: "During 2002-2007, concussions were recorded by NFL team physicians and athletic trainers using the same standardized reporting form used from 1996 to 2001. Player position, type of play, concussion signs and symptoms, loss of consciousness, and medical action taken were recorded."

    Are you saying you know the above is not true? How do you know?

    Or maybe I have missed your point?

    Thanks.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    I absolutely don't believe it. The NFL didn't even admit concussions were a problem until after 2007, when Goodell became commissioner. So they collected data for 21 years before that they now use to change the rules? Come on.
    Gopher football fan since 1924. DNA-wise.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by highwayman View Post
    There is no evidence that KO are any more dangerous that any other play.

    I'd like to see a study about pass plays over the middle when the QB fails to look off the DBs. Inexperienced QBs should be banned.
    If the youtube video data is correct from Gophers_4life there is 1 concussion every 157 kickoffs compared to 1 in every 241 plays.

    Quote Originally Posted by #2Gopher View Post
    I've always felt that the receivers get clobbered more than the kick returners. Its a dangerous game much like hockey can be as well.
    Don't think they are talking about the kick returners. More often than not it is the guy blocking that is absorbing the big hits.

    ---

    With all that being said, I always find the kickoff an exciting play.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by highwayman View Post
    I absolutely don't believe it. The NFL didn't even admit concussions were a problem until after 2007, when Goodell became commissioner. So they collected data for 21 years before that they now use to change the rules? Come on.
    Life is easy when you deny all facts that don’t agree with your preconceived opinions. Then you’re never wrong!

  5. #35

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    Getting rid of kickoffs makes a ton of sense for a league full of guys looking for another chance at the NFL. A concussion could set them back for a long time and a bad enough one could kill their shot at making the NFL. I could see the NCAA getting rid of kickoffs for similar reasons. For many of the athletes, college football is either a route to the NFL or a way to have a fun experience while getting a college education. Concussions could hinder the chances of having an NFL career and if they were bad enough could make it harder to get a career outside of sports.

    Getting rid of kickoffs for those reasons doesn't make sense in the NFL because players are already there, plus many guys on special teams primarily or only play special teams so they'd be sitting on the bench if kickoffs went away. I think it's eventually coming but it will come after college gets rid of them and will be because the players union either explicitly asks for them or pushes for guaranteed or partially guaranteed contracts due to how easy it is to get injured.

    No matter how dangerous they are, kickoffs can be some of the most exciting plays in football and it would be sad to see them go. I still remember a Gopher getting ejected for a clean and amazing block on Penn State's kicker a few years ago. Less impactful on the game than some other safety rules but still a part of the game that I don't want to see go.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrC View Post
    I assume the source of the statistic is this:

    https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/f...1_20160217.pdf

    A pretty interesting document. Shows that the highest rate of concussions (perhaps the best indicator of risk) is in wrestling. Football is no. 2, before a drop to men’s ice hockey, women’s field hockey, and so on.

    The rest of the document shows a problem-solving approach to the issue, regardless of the sport involved. Rather that argue that any one sport is good or bad, it focuses on protocols and procedures for all athletes.

    I think an argument could be made that if kickoffs lead to 20% of concussions, a rule change might be worthy of consideration. Rule changes to promote player safety are nothing new. Perhaps a rule change could reduce the incidence of concussion in wrestling as well. But I suspect the the most effective way to reduce CTE, regardless of sport, is the kind of protocols described in the link. As research continues, no doubt the protocols will be improved. Hopefully these protocols, which are a long way from “he got his bell rung,” will be the primary method of reducing CTE over the long term.
    As I said before I’d like to see the kickoff concussion rate I’ve over the last 10 years. The rule change re formation may have had an effect (or not). I genuinely don’t know.

    I’m one of the Neanderthals that believes the incidence of CTE in high school and college players is vanishingly low. Obviously my opinion could change as better data rolls in, although none of the vested parties on either side seem to be all that interested in gathering, collating, and publishing it which strikes me as curious. In the meantime I’m not jumping up and down for major changes to the fabric of the game.

  7. #37
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    Each event is a play with a single player involved. Every play has 22 players involved. Do the math properly. Most of you have the answer on frequency way, way off the mark. Concussions are happening more than all of you reported on your individual analysis. And, if you would actually read the reports, they even tell you the results in plain language because they already did that work for the readers. Math literacy is wasted on so many well trained mathematicians! Why Lord! Why?
    You can call me Shirley. The "S" has to stand for something!

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNfootballfan View Post
    If the youtube video data is correct from Gophers_4life there is 1 concussion every 157 kickoffs compared to 1 in every 241 plays.



    Don't think they are talking about the kick returners. More often than not it is the guy blocking that is absorbing the big hits.

    ---

    With all that being said, I always find the kickoff an exciting play.
    Something frequently heard at scientific pow wows.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean S View Post
    Each event is a play with a single player involved. Every play has 22 players involved. Do the math properly. Most of you have the answer on frequency way, way off the mark. Concussions are happening more than all of you reported on your individual analysis. And, if you would actually read the reports, they even tell you the results in plain language because they already did that work for the readers. Math literacy is wasted on so many well trained mathematicians! Why Lord! Why?
    An athlete exposure is defined as one athlete participating in one practice or competition during which the athlete was exposed to the possibility of athletic injury. The rates are accessible on the PDF MrC linked. Concussions are very common in many sports.

    Despite the relative frequency of these injuries very few former college athletes have been identified with clinical CTE.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pompous Elitist View Post
    As I said before I’d like to see the kickoff concussion rate I’ve over the last 10 years. The rule change re formation may have had an effect (or not). I genuinely don’t know.

    I’m one of the Neanderthals that believes the incidence of CTE in high school and college players is vanishingly low. Obviously my opinion could change as better data rolls in, although none of the vested parties on either side seem to be all that interested in gathering, collating, and publishing it which strikes me as curious. In the meantime I’m not jumping up and down for major changes to the fabric of the game.
    Most recent article I could find. Mentions stationary Kickoff rule change.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ta/2668414002/

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pompous Elitist View Post
    As I said before I’d like to see the kickoff concussion rate I’ve over the last 10 years. The rule change re formation may have had an effect (or not). I genuinely don’t know.

    I’m one of the Neanderthals that believes the incidence of CTE in high school and college players is vanishingly low. Obviously my opinion could change as better data rolls in, although none of the vested parties on either side seem to be all that interested in gathering, collating, and publishing it which strikes me as curious. In the meantime I’m not jumping up and down for major changes to the fabric of the game.
    Even if it doesn’t help at all ... it doesn’t hurt at all. Removing kickoffs takes nothing away from the game. Kickoff TDs or significantly shortened fields are so rare that you can never depend on them I n any particular game. They’re just a bonus if they happen. Plenty of excitement in the rest of the game, ie 99.95% of the excitement on average.

    And it stops exactly there, with no other changes being proposed or likely. So the slippery slope argument is invalid.

  12. #42
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    Not going to read the whole thread but this is how the AAF handles "onside kicks"

    If you want to go for the equivalent of the onside kick, we will give you your ball on your own 35 and you’ll be facing 4th-and-10. If you convert, you keep going. If you don’t, you’re giving the ball back to someone knocking on your own red zone.

  13. #43

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    A record that'll with the rule changes will never be broken -- Troy Stoudermire finished his college career as the all-time leader in kickoff return yards with 3,615 yards on 144 returns.

  14. #44
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    I have not changed my opinion that kickoffs should NOT be removed from the game. As others have said, special teams have long been a way for younger, less experienced, backups to get playing time. Sometimes their play in special teams even leads to more playing time in general. And, kickoffs have long been a game-changer with kickoff returns for touchdowns being one of the most electric plays in football. My own personal eye test (which could be flawed) says people aren't necessarily more likely to be injured on kickoffs and this opinion seems to be validated by those that have published statistics here. With all that in mind, I'm not sure why there is such a war on the kickoff.

    However, despite having a wish to keep kickoffs, I do like the idea that if it was removed, a 4th and 10 or 4th and 15 option for the kicking team to keep the ball. In terms of the place on the field and the distance - just figure out what the percentages of converted onside kicks (prior to recent rule changes) and match it with the percentage of success of a given distance on 4th down. In the NFL, they have made rule changes that has made it basically impossible to convert an onside kick now and that isn't good either.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gophers_4life View Post
    Even if it doesn’t help at all ... it doesn’t hurt at all. Removing kickoffs takes nothing away from the game. Kickoff TDs or significantly shortened fields are so rare that you can never depend on them I n any particular game. They’re just a bonus if they happen. Plenty of excitement in the rest of the game, ie 99.95% of the excitement on average.

    And it stops exactly there, with no other changes being proposed or likely. So the slippery slope argument is invalid.
    For someone that likes to demand facts from others this is a curious number as that (source less) vid you posted admitted to a many times higher rate of returns beyond the 25 yard line. Every point counts in football, and field position is extra critical when time is short.

    Please post updated concussion data when you have it.

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