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  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by caliGopher View Post
    That's a pretty stilted and limited attempt to turn a complex situation into a binary choice.

    Did I think the program from top to bottom was in disarray? No.
    Did I think that this was the same dumpster fire that Jerry Kill inherited? No.
    Did I realize that a big hole existed in the secondary based on the events of the scandal and the players kicked off the team/out of school? Yes.

    So in this environment, the AD makes the decision to make a change in the Head Coach

    Looking at what was coming back, what the attitude on the team was, and what any new coach coming inherited

    Did I think that any coach coming in would want to instill his "culture"? Yes.
    Did a new coach magically fix the sheer body count in the secondary? No.
    Were there other issues in the depth chart? Yes. - O line and QB
    Was the team in good spirits based on how the scandal unfolded? No.
    Was this team devoid of talent? No.
    Did this team fit the new schemes the new coach wanted to run? It wasn't a total disconnect, but there would be some growing pains and the issues on the O-line, defensive backfield offered little room for error. The lack of experience at QB would be a challenge.

    So the takeaway and where there seems to be a disconnect is on was this a total rebuild. I would argue it was not, but I would argue that Fleck wanted it to be and so it was. So based on that, I would say, Fleck is behind schedule, not ahead of schedule. it has nothing to do with Claeys. It has everything to do with Fleck's approach and decisions. The biggest flaw in that he's ahead of schedule, to me, ignores the fact that when he fired an incompetent Defensive Coordinator the players that those who believe all things Fleck assured this board sucked, didn't anymore. His decisions held the team back in it's capabilities. We under performed because of bad decisions on his part. When Smith was removed, the issues with the roster didn't change the results did.

    A little more nuanced than I either liked or didn't like Claeys, but keep on sticking to that mantra. It's easier to blame that then consider the mistakes Fleck has made to this point and hold him responsible for some bad decisions. You can do that and still see that there is hope for the future under Fleck and that the program hasn't been a dumpster fire for a while.
    Wow....could pick at it a lot but if you think the only holes on the 2017 team were the secondary, o-line, and QB you are dreaming. WR had one guy and there is no telling if he would have developed into the player he has become under the old staff, because their track record with receivers wasn't great. The 2017 D-Line had Richardson and a really good defensive tackle can only do so much with no help from the ends.

    And the QB situation was the blackest of black holes and a complete joke.

    Fleck inherited a better overall situation then Kill did when he was hired but Fleck also inherited a deeply flawed roster with lots of holes to fill at key spots (and DPO I am not trying to compare the 2017 roster to the one Kill inherited so we don't need to go down that rabbit hole again, I am looking at the 2017 team on its own). He has made some mistakes along the way, the biggest of which was obviously making the wrong choice for his DC. And he absolutely made some personnel decisions that held the team back a little in 2017 in the hopes of setting the team up for the future. Not because he wanted to lose in 2017 but because he felt it wasn't worth hurting the future for a win or two that might have gotten the team to a lower tier bowl game when his goal is to set the team up to win division and conference championships.

    I don't think he is ahead of or behind schedule. His first two years have been middle of the road, not great, not terrible, but the evidence of what he is trying to build is very apparent for those that are not too jaded to see it. The final 4 games of 2018 were different for this program, they finally looked like a team that actually has a shot to contend and not one that is destined to always be an also ran.

    Where we go from here remains to be seen. But you have to work pretty hard to not at least be optimistic about the current direction of the program.


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNVCGUY View Post
    Wow....could pick at it a lot but if you think the only holes on the 2017 team were the secondary, o-line, and QB you are dreaming. WR had one guy and there is no telling if he would have developed into the player he has become under the old staff, because their track record with receivers wasn't great. The 2017 D-Line had Richardson and a really good defensive tackle can only do so much with no help from the ends.

    And the QB situation was the blackest of black holes and a complete joke.

    Fleck inherited a better overall situation then Kill did when he was hired but Fleck also inherited a deeply flawed roster with lots of holes to fill at key spots (and DPO I am not trying to compare the 2017 roster to the one Kill inherited so we don't need to go down that rabbit hole again, I am looking at the 2017 team on its own). He has made some mistakes along the way, the biggest of which was obviously making the wrong choice for his DC. And he absolutely made some personnel decisions that held the team back a little in 2017 in the hopes of setting the team up for the future. Not because he wanted to lose in 2017 but because he felt it wasn't worth hurting the future for a win or two that might have gotten the team to a lower tier bowl game when his goal is to set the team up to win division and conference championships.

    I don't think he is ahead of or behind schedule. His first two years have been middle of the road, not great, not terrible, but the evidence of what he is trying to build is very apparent for those that are not too jaded to see it. The final 4 games of 2018 were different for this program, they finally looked like a team that actually has a shot to contend and not one that is destined to always be an also ran.

    Where we go from here remains to be seen. But you have to work pretty hard to not at least be optimistic about the current direction of the program.
    I am optimistic that the program has more upside potential today than it did the day Fleck was hired.

    I also know this wasn’t a dumpster fire. We’re there problems? Yes. I intentionally didn’t go down all of the ins and outs of the roster issues because in year three recruiting it doesn’t matter what the roster is when he took over. He’s had time to address (not necessarily fix) the issue.

    One concern for my optimism? Our biggest glaring hole in the roster was a safety. Which wasn’t plugged until just before signing day. We’ve got plenty of feel good stories at safety, that if they work out, will be a Hallmark Channel/PJ Fleck movie some day, but should Winfield get hurt, because of roster problems and two kids Fleck brought in and jettisoned, we’re still paper thin at safety depth.

    So optimistic, but not convinced at this point, as problems are being ignored in the steps PJ Fleck is taking to move the program forward.

    The good news is that there are only two things standing in the way of PJ Flecks success: a toxic culture in the administration at the U and PJ Fleck himself.

    I’m hopeful that the new Prez can fix the problems in the admin/faculty approach to athletics.

    If that happens, if PJ can continue to learn and grow as a head coach, we just might get there.


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    If we want to fix what happened, you need to fire Coyle and Kaler as well.

    People are renewing. - Mark Coyle

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by caliGopher View Post
    ....was this a total rebuild. I would argue it was not, but I would argue that Fleck wanted it to be and so it was.
    There's the situation in a nutshell. Fleck is like one of those developers who tears down a good house in Edina in order to build a new one twice as big and expensive in the same spot. He didn't have to tear down and start over, but he did. And that's the number one reason why two years after taking over a 9-4 team, he's receiving praise for winning seven games and being "ahead of schedule" in his "rebuild."
    I’m a light eater. As soon as it’s light, I start to eat. And I'm on a seefood diet. If I can see food, I'll eat it.

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by everybody knows my name View Post
    There's the situation in a nutshell. Fleck is like one of those developers who tears down a good house in Edina in order to build a new one twice as big and expensive in the same spot. He didn't have to tear down and start over, but he did. And that's the number one reason why two years after taking over a 9-4 team, he's receiving praise for winning seven games and being "ahead of schedule" in his "rebuild."
    What does this even mean? What tangible steps would he have done differently if he wasn't "tearing down the house" and starting from scratch?

    He went after JUCOs and signed as many as could be expected. He brought in transfers - Williamson and OJ Smith, who could help immediately. There weren't any head scratching moves that I can think of where upperclassmen who previously played a lot and had been effective were relegated to the bench in favor of his younger recruits that were struggling.

    Let me guess - he tore down the house because he "talked" about a new culture???

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    This
    It was actually the complete opposite of my point of view.

    I think PJ is actually ahead of schedule and I don't think he is anywhere near a hot seat.

    I also think the program was in a decent place with Claeys, and the University/Coyle/Kaler absolutely butchered the scandal.

    I'm actually surprised this isn't every single person's opinion of the situation. The two stances seem pretty obvious logically (state of the program & handling of scandal) and they are in no way inconsistent with each other.

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_Loblaw View Post
    It was actually the complete opposite of my point of view.

    I think PJ is actually ahead of schedule and I don't think he is anywhere near a hot seat.

    I also think the program was in a decent place with Claeys, and the University/Coyle/Kaler absolutely butchered the scandal.

    I'm actually surprised this isn't every single person's opinion of the situation. The two stances seem pretty obvious logically (state of the program & handling of scandal) and they are in no way inconsistent with each other.
    This is a very good assessment. Feel the same about where the program was at with Claeys and how terrible the admin handled the scandal.

    Would say after PJ's first year he was way behind schedule, especially how the end of the season looked. At the midpoint in the season this year, there were signs of improvement, but still was not looking much better. Then the change at DC happened and the end of the season looked so much better. Very optimistic about what is to come for this team.

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