Pitino and the state of the program

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jovs said:
Should not have been late with Reuvers, not top 50 but good at everything; skills, shooting, decent athleticism, and size even as a sophomore in High School. Probably would not have made a difference but I don't think he was borderline at all, I don't know the other PF's on the AAU circuit at the time and how he matched up but that shouldn't make a difference.
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They werent late with Reuvers, they literally were 2nd to offer him and i think a couple days behind Wisconsin, He and his family didnt like Pitino and never really gave them a chance.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Michigan State plays tough, grind it out basketball? That's an identity? Kenpom has them 6th in adjO in the country. Is that consistent with grind out it out basketball? Is that different than what other coaches including Pitino are trying to do? We haven't played tough, grind it out basketball this year? Is that really an identity? Michigan State consistently has the best recruits in the conference. Is that an identity?

Wisconsin is really the only team that has a different offensive style. But right now we are 1-0 against them and could be 2-0 after Wednesday night. Iowa? Not playing defense, is that an identity you want? Right now we are 1-0 against them, and tied with them in the standings.

Michigan is currently 8th in the B1G in 3 pt made this season. That's their identity?

I think Pitino has an identity. He's trying to recruit multi-dimensional players with length and mix them with shooters. We have one of, if not the tallest starting lineup in the conference. Coffey, Curry, Oturu, McBrayer mixed with the shooting of Gabe. Yes he's missed on a few guys like Harris, and it's possible he thought players like McBrayer, Coffey, Washington, Hurt would develop a better outside shot.

Right now this 'lack of identity' has the Gophers at 16-6, and they will make the NCAA tournament for the 2nd time in 3 years if they take care of business down the stretch. I think identity is a misnomer, and most teams lack a true identity, or it changes each year depending on the players that are recruited.

Nearly all coaches are trying to recruit the best talent possible, then developing that talent into as many wins as possible. Pitino is no different.
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Interesting debate and think I agree with this. Some I know will disagree, but with the blue bloods I dont see a distinct identity other than they play good offense and defense with the best players, guess that is their identity.
 

dex8425 said:
Davison-thank goodness he's not a gopher.
Reuvers- we were too late in the game and didn't recruit him as hard as Bucky did.

My point was not in mentioning the 2020 class that we've missed out on a lot of top level MN recruits in the past. My point was that looking forward, to evaluate the state of the program, it's bad if we can't land 3 or four of those guys. Garcia, Suggs, Walton and Carlson could absolutely play on the court together. We really want all of these guys, and Holmgren, so if they don't come, what is wrong?
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Not necessarily anything wrong with players picking better coaches, that is what most kids do, better schools, better programs, better climates and all the other reasons kids pick schools. Very likely that Pitino and the staff do a great job selling what they have to sell. To some kids that will look like a KIA compared to a Ferrari, to others they want the hot chicks at ASU.Teenagers make decision for loads of differences. It is tough when your coaching here with very little success and you walk into a AAU gym or a high school gym and then those top 20 coaches walk in and even a local gym crowd gasps at Izzo or K or Williams or Wright etc.. Bo Ryan never got into their club (except the hall of fame ) but he got around it by identifying most prospects as 4-5 players that could play sound basketball and thus did not travel far or reach. He economized his time and relied on his assistants for great evaluations and relationships. Personally never was real fond of him but damn he could teach. The development of his teams is incredible and it was all fundamental. Greatest winning % in Big 10 history with the classes he got is just extraordinary.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I agree with the "identity" issue.

Most successful coaches have a style or a system that they use, AND they recruit players who fit that system. As WI showed, you don't have to necessarily have world-class athletes IF you get good athletes who fit a specific role in your system.

there are other coaches or programs who just go out and get the best athletes they can, and then design a system to get the most out of those athletes and their skill set.

But Pitino doesn't seem to fit either category. Unless running the shot clock down and making a kamikaze drive to the basket is a system.....

Dutcher's good teams were all built around post play. Clem never had great scoring big men, but he always had tough, versatile players at the small forward and shooting guard spots.

Again - what is Pitino's system? What is this team's identity?
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Pitino's teams absolutely have an identity and it's pretty simple to see if you watch. It's more a matter of executing it consistently. He wants multiple ball-handlers on the floor at all times to use the dribble weave and the high ball screen. Move the ball side-to-side enough and you'll have an open shooter on nearly every possession if you don't turn it over.

On defense, he wants a rebound, immediate outlet and run at every available opportunity. The opponent's defense can't get set if you get out in transition. The Gophers look outstanding offensively when they play fast, share the ball and run consistently. They get in trouble when they dribble too much and are forced into a lot of half-court offense. It's a tough style to play in the Big Ten, but when it works it's fun to watch.

If they had a deeper bench, he would press more and it least force the opponent to initiate its offense later in the shot clock.

They won in Madison earlier this year because they defended the hell out of the Badgers. Virtually every shot was contested. They'll need to switch up looks at Happ and contest the perimeter.
 

NWMetroGopherFan said:
Pitino's teams absolutely have an identity and it's pretty simple to see if you watch. It's more a matter of executing it consistently. He wants multiple ball-handlers on the floor at all times to use the dribble weave and the high ball screen. Move the ball side-to-side enough and you'll have an open shooter on nearly every possession if you don't turn it over.

On defense, he wants a rebound, immediate outlet and run at every available opportunity. The opponent's defense can't get set if you get out in transition. The Gophers look outstanding offensively when they play fast, share the ball and run consistently. They get in trouble when they dribble too much and are forced into a lot of half-court offense. It's a tough style to play in the Big Ten, but when it works it's fun to watch.

If they had a deeper bench, he would press more and it least force the opponent to initiate its offense later in the shot clock.

They won in Madison earlier this year because they defended the hell out of the Badgers. Virtually every shot was contested. They'll need to switch up looks at Happ and contest the perimeter.
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I watch as damn close as possible and have never seen something that we can hang our hat on everyday. It is something your known for doing very well that imposes yourself on the opponent. What you describe is what we try, then abandon and fail often with. Your talking game plan, i am talking culture. When i travel, which is constant and i ask someone about Gopher basketball and what sticks out, they never answer press, dribble drive, weave, transition. These are basketball people and they can not see anything by which we are known. They actually jab me with things like the first thing they think of is irrelevance. When they see our 5 year record they can not believe the indifference , hell acceptance to such failure.
 


NWMetroGopherFan said:
Pitino's teams absolutely have an identity and it's pretty simple to see if you watch. It's more a matter of executing it consistently. He wants multiple ball-handlers on the floor at all times to use the dribble weave and the high ball screen. Move the ball side-to-side enough and you'll have an open shooter on nearly every possession if you don't turn it over.

On defense, he wants a rebound, immediate outlet and run at every available opportunity. The opponent's defense can't get set if you get out in transition. The Gophers look outstanding offensively when they play fast, share the ball and run consistently. They get in trouble when they dribble too much and are forced into a lot of half-court offense. It's a tough style to play in the Big Ten, but when it works it's fun to watch.

If they had a deeper bench, he would press more and it least force the opponent to initiate its offense later in the shot clock.

They won in Madison earlier this year because they defended the hell out of the Badgers. Virtually every shot was contested. They'll need to switch up looks at Happ and contest the perimeter.
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+1

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

When he was hired I heard he was a desciple of Louisville and Florida programs. He wanted to press and go uptempo. Now we haven't had a ton of depth or the athletes those two programs have. I would still love to see some half court traps. And more than 2-3 steals per game... pretty pathetic.
 

march madness said:
When he was hired I heard he was a desciple of Louisville and Florida programs. He wanted to press and go uptempo. Now we haven't had a ton of depth or the athletes those two programs have. I would still love to see some half court traps. And more than 2-3 steals per game... pretty pathetic.
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The Gophers average 5.2 steals per game this year, FWIW. 298th in the country.

Here is a list of all teams steals per game so you can quit spouting made up stats. https://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/215
 

march madness said:
When he was hired I heard he was a desciple of Louisville and Florida programs. He wanted to press and go uptempo. Now we haven't had a ton of depth or the athletes those two programs have. I would still love to see some half court traps. And more than 2-3 steals per game... pretty pathetic.
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That is his coaching DNA and for good reason, those two programs were teaching bloodletting defense, some of the best in the country. We have seen one top 25 defense here in 6 years and it was our best year. Of course one of those programs cheated and both had top 10 coaches. I would love to see it too but you must have the players. Plus, it is hard in the Big 10 where you can grind in the halfcourt or if the other teams have really good players they can shred it with two on ones. It is a very physical style and not something i associate with what i have seen here in 6 years. Some of it is the way games are called now, no more hand checks and clutching and grabbing. The best teams now do not foul, they play defense with their feet and their smarts.
 



builtbadgers said:
That is his coaching DNA and for good reason, those two programs were teaching bloodletting defense, some of the best in the country. We have seen one top 25 defense here in 6 years and it was our best year. Of course one of those programs cheated and both had top 10 coaches. I would love to see it too but you must have the players. Plus, it is hard in the Big 10 where you can grind in the halfcourt or if the other teams have really good players they can shred it with two on ones. It is a very physical style and not something i associate with what i have seen here in 6 years. Some of it is the way games are called now, no more hand checks and clutching and grabbing. The best teams now do not foul, they play defense with their feet and their smarts.
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What I wish is that Richard would implement pressing and trapping defenses but use them situationally as a change-up. It doesn't have to be a choice between pressing all the time and pressing never. I have never understood why he continues to avoid those defenses altogether, especially after touting them so heavily up front.
 

Bad Gopher said:
What I wish is that Richard would implement pressing and trapping defenses but use them situationally as a change-up. It doesn't have to be a choice between pressing all the time and pressing never. I have never understood why he continues to avoid those defenses altogether, especially after touting them so heavily up front.
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As built just mentioned, that can be hard to do in the B10. I think Richard wanted to, realized that it's a system that most likely wouldn't work in the B10 and he's dropped it. The long athletic wings is definitely something I do notice. Sideline transition focused offense that goes to a motion ball screen offense and solid aggressive up the line man d is what he wants our identity to be, but we have not achieved it yet. It's a far question whether we can do that with MN kids. A lot of MN kids are more well suited to play pack line and more ball control offenses hence why Wisconsin is attractive to them. Very similar to football in the fact that you go get your skill players outside of MN in places like Florida and Georgia, it's not different in basketball.
 


builtbadgers said:
That is his coaching DNA and for good reason, those two programs were teaching bloodletting defense, some of the best in the country. We have seen one top 25 defense here in 6 years and it was our best year. Of course one of those programs cheated and both had top 10 coaches. I would love to see it too but you must have the players. Plus, it is hard in the Big 10 where you can grind in the halfcourt or if the other teams have really good players they can shred it with two on ones. It is a very physical style and not something i associate with what i have seen here in 6 years. Some of it is the way games are called now, no more hand checks and clutching and grabbing. The best teams now do not foul, they play defense with their feet and their smarts.
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Please. Hand checks over and over and over again that are not called, not called repeatedly even thought this was a "point of emphasis".
 



BarnBurner said:
Please. Hand checks over and over and over again that are not called, not called repeatedly even thought this was a "point of emphasis".
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The teams i watch play great defense do it with their feet and vertical close outs. They commit few fouls, among the least in the country. Easy to see, even easier to research. Otherwise you have to subscribe that some teams just always catch a break on officiating. Simply not true. Watch the best defensive teams, they do not reach, clutch or grab.
 

manderson1984 said:
As built just mentioned, that can be hard to do in the B10. I think Richard wanted to, realized that it's a system that most likely wouldn't work in the B10 and he's dropped it. The long athletic wings is definitely something I do notice. Sideline transition focused offense that goes to a motion ball screen offense and solid aggressive up the line man d is what he wants our identity to be, but we have not achieved it yet. It's a far question whether we can do that with MN kids. A lot of MN kids are more well suited to play pack line and more ball control offenses hence why Wisconsin is attractive to them. Very similar to football in the fact that you go get your skill players outside of MN in places like Florida and Georgia, it's not different in basketball.
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I would challenge that conventional thinking. Tom Davis pressed 40 minutes a game when he coached Iowa. He substituted often in order to set up his defense and rotate in fresh troops. And he didn't have an army of long-armed athletic players - just a solid roster ordinary players who knew what they were doing and played good full-court position defense. And that's part of my suspicion here - that Richard simply does not know how to coordinate and teach these defensive methods as well as his dad or Dr. Davis or any of the others who employ it, so he chooses not to implement it.
 

builtbadgers said:
The teams i watch play great defense do it with their feet and vertical close outs. They commit few fouls, among the least in the country. Easy to see, even easier to research. Otherwise you have to subscribe that some teams just always catch a break on officiating. Simply not true. Watch the best defensive teams, they do not reach, clutch or grab.
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Wisconsin, I am sure. They never committed a foul while Bo Ryan was coaching. You could tell by his reaction when WI was whistled for ANYTHING. What happened to Nate Mason last season while playing WI, built? Was a foul even called?

Dirty play. Or is that a substitute for not reach, clutch, grab?


"this was a "point of emphasis". Supposedly For ALL teams, not just the teams you watch. Right?
 

Bad Gopher said:
I would challenge that conventional thinking. Tom Davis pressed 40 minutes a game when he coached Iowa. He substituted often in order to set up his defense and rotate in fresh troops. And he didn't have an army of long-armed athletic players - just a solid roster ordinary players who knew what they were doing and played good full-court position defense. And that's part of my suspicion here - that Richard simply does not know how to coordinate and teach these defensive methods as well as his dad or Dr. Davis or any of the others who employ it, so he chooses not to implement it.
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You named one individual coach that hasn't coaches at Iowa since 1996. I'd consider him an outlier. There are teams that press in the B10, but it's not something you do all game. There is a reason few do it in the country anymore all game period anymore. Rick himself wasn't pressing all game long either like he did earlier at Louisville or when he was at Kentucky. Players are longer, bigger, faster, and more skilled which makes pressing harder. It doesn't work to do it all the time. Richard's choice to back off the press had nothing to do with him not knowing how to do it, it had to do with finding personal for it that wanted to come here. People adjust to this conference and change. Brad Underwood and Jim Beilien are two examples.
 

BarnBurner said:
Wisconsin, I am sure. They never committed a foul while Bo Ryan was coaching. You could tell by his reaction when WI was whistled for ANYTHING. What happened to Nate Mason last season while playing WI, built? Was a foul even called?

Dirty play. Or is that a substitute for not reach, clutch, grab?


"this was a "point of emphasis". Supposedly For ALL teams, not just the teams you watch. Right?
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You can dislike Wiskey as much as you want, but their is no way to plausibly deny that they play great positional pack line D and have for many years. Arguments over amount of "dirty plays" is a completely different discussion. Sticking out legs and tripping guys is significantly more "dirty" that clutching and grabbing. The clutching and grabbing doesn't happen nearly as much as it used to (80s-early 2000s) especially outside of the B10.
 

Bad Gopher said:
I would challenge that conventional thinking. Tom Davis pressed 40 minutes a game when he coached Iowa. He substituted often in order to set up his defense and rotate in fresh troops. And he didn't have an army of long-armed athletic players - just a solid roster ordinary players who knew what they were doing and played good full-court position defense. And that's part of my suspicion here - that Richard simply does not know how to coordinate and teach these defensive methods as well as his dad or Dr. Davis or any of the others who employ it, so he chooses not to implement it.
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I seem to recall Pitino running the press fairly successfully his first year here
 

builtbadgers said:
I watch as damn close as possible and have never seen something that we can hang our hat on everyday. It is something your known for doing very well that imposes yourself on the opponent. What you describe is what we try, then abandon and fail often with. Your talking game plan, i am talking culture. When i travel, which is constant and i ask someone about Gopher basketball and what sticks out, they never answer press, dribble drive, weave, transition. These are basketball people and they can not see anything by which we are known. They actually jab me with things like the first thing they think of is irrelevance. When they see our 5 year record they can not believe the indifference , hell acceptance to such failure.
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What does this even mean? How are you determining that Minnesota fans "accept failure?"
 

Lakers612 said:
I seem to recall Pitino running the press fairly successfully his first year here
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He ran it but not successfully. He had more or less gone away from it by the time the conference schedule started because they were getting beat too often for easy baskets.
 

BarnBurner said:
Wisconsin, I am sure. They never committed a foul while Bo Ryan was coaching. You could tell by his reaction when WI was whistled for ANYTHING. What happened to Nate Mason last season while playing WI, built? Was a foul even called?

Dirty play. Or is that a substitute for not reach, clutch, grab?


"this was a "point of emphasis". Supposedly For ALL teams, not just the teams you watch. Right?
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Over reaction of the year
 

Keyser Söze said:
What does this even mean? How are you determining that Minnesota fans "accept failure?"
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Not all Minnesota fans myself included do not accept it. I was referring to those that think .500 is good. Hell i have read on here that there are teams that are 1-10 are not bad. In my world and in my opinion that is bad, 10-10 is average. Everyone has too decide for themselves. Many fans is a more accurate way to say it, your right but there are a whole lot of places that would never accept 34-67 in year 6 and no excuses as i have my opinion that excuses are for losers. Pat Richter told me directly to demand excellence and that included getting beat for 2-3 years if there was a incredible foundation being built. That included hiring a builder, never compromising on character and building a culture. All very difficult to do which is why it is special when it happens. This is a fantastic job, a big part of the fan base goes crazy for a coach who can get to the tourney every other year, get a 4 th place finish once every 6 years. Damn, win the conference once in awhile ! Other non blue bloods did it several times and i here some fans here think this is as good as we can get ! UW was a absolute dumpster fire with worse facilities and Richter demanded winning from the top down, Villanova was really down and the AD developed a plan i have talked about and then UVA nearly made the fatal mistake of hiring Tubby but then Littlepage talked to Knight, K, and Jerry West who told them if you could win at Washington State you could win anywhere. He warned them if they did not jump now that Indiana, Marquette, LSU and Texas would be on it quickly. Iam not giving up on this team and this coach but we have seen and how we got here is pathetic. Teague was a laughingstock before he got here and AD's and coaches talked about it at the coaches convention. That is it as i am now going down for dinner and then watching the Gophers win tonight. This is the roster to grab a top 3 finish, demand it.
 

Bad Gopher said:
I would challenge that conventional thinking. Tom Davis pressed 40 minutes a game when he coached Iowa. He substituted often in order to set up his defense and rotate in fresh troops. And he didn't have an army of long-armed athletic players - just a solid roster ordinary players who knew what they were doing and played good full-court position defense. And that's part of my suspicion here - that Richard simply does not know how to coordinate and teach these defensive methods as well as his dad or Dr. Davis or any of the others who employ it, so he chooses not to implement it.
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Remember it well. Lived in Iowa at the time and watched Iowa basketball religiously back then. Davis always had a bench because he always used the bench. He had almost a platoon system. Davis inherited some great players from Raveling when he came to Iowa but Davis himself was not an exceptional recruiter. He developed his bench players for roles and most of them played regular minutes almost every game.
 

builtbadgers said:
Not all Minnesota fans myself included do not accept it. I was referring to those that think .500 is good. Hell i have read on here that there are teams that are 1-10 are not bad. In my world and in my opinion that is bad, 10-10 is average. Everyone has too decide for themselves. Many fans is a more accurate way to say it, your right but there are a whole lot of places that would never accept 34-67 in year 6 and no excuses as i have my opinion that excuses are for losers. Pat Richter told me directly to demand excellence and that included getting beat for 2-3 years if there was a incredible foundation being built. That included hiring a builder, never compromising on character and building a culture. All very difficult to do which is why it is special when it happens. This is a fantastic job, a big part of the fan base goes crazy for a coach who can get to the tourney every other year, get a 4 th place finish once every 6 years. Damn, win the conference once in awhile ! Other non blue bloods did it several times and i here some fans here think this is as good as we can get ! UW was a absolute dumpster fire with worse facilities and Richter demanded winning from the top down, Villanova was really down and the AD developed a plan i have talked about and then UVA nearly made the fatal mistake of hiring Tubby but then Littlepage talked to Knight, K, and Jerry West who told them if you could win at Washington State you could win anywhere. He warned them if they did not jump now that Indiana, Marquette, LSU and Texas would be on it quickly. Iam not giving up on this team and this coach but we have seen and how we got here is pathetic. Teague was a laughingstock before he got here and AD's and coaches talked about it at the coaches convention. That is it as i am now going down for dinner and then watching the Gophers win tonight. This is the roster to grab a top 3 finish, demand it.
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I demand a top 3 finish. There, it'll happen now, right?
 

cjbfbp said:
Remember it well. Lived in Iowa at the time and watched Iowa basketball religiously back then. Davis always had a bench because he always used the bench. He had almost a platoon system. Davis inherited some great players from Raveling when he came to Iowa but Davis himself was not an exceptional recruiter. He developed his bench players for roles and most of them played regular minutes almost every game.
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I'll never forget my brother in law complaining about the incessant stoppages in play while they subbed in another "drone," in his words, to set up the defense. Good times!
 

builtbadgers said:
I was referring to those that think .500 is good.
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Who thinks .500 is good? Not a rhetorical question, I'm actually asking.

builtbadgers said:
Hell i have read on here that there are teams that are 1-10 are not bad.
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Where? Can you provide a link? I don't believe you, but even if someone out there actually thinks this, they are very much in an extremely small minority and their opinion in no way reflects the fan base as a whole.

builtbadgers said:
there are a whole lot of places that would never accept 34-67 in year 6
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What does it mean exactly to not accept that? Does complaining to friends or random people on a message board magically make the team better?

builtbadgers said:
no excuses as i have my opinion that excuses are for losers.
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I don't judge Pitino for last season for the same reason I wouldn't judge your driving ability after you blew a tire and your power steering went out. Expecting certain results regardless of who is on the floor is asinine and makes my brain melt.


builtbadgers said:
Pat Richter told me directly to demand excellence
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Had to Google who Pat Richter was, but cool humble brag nonetheless.
 

manderson1984 said:
You can dislike Wiskey as much as you want, but their is no way to plausibly deny that they play great positional pack line D and have for many years. Arguments over amount of "dirty plays" is a completely different discussion. Sticking out legs and tripping guys is significantly more "dirty" that clutching and grabbing. The clutching and grabbing doesn't happen nearly as much as it used to (80s-early 2000s) especially outside of the B10.
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Disliking whisky and the continued clutching and grabbing while it is a point of emphasis are 2 different things. Btw I don’t dislike whisky.

No one can deny bo Ryan thought every call against his team was a travesty. Watch the highlights.
 

BarnBurner said:
Disliking whisky and the continued clutching and grabbing while it is a point of emphasis are 2 different things. Btw I don’t dislike whisky.

No one can deny bo Ryan thought every call against his team was a travesty. Watch the highlights.
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Agreed that Ryan's sideline antics were over the top. Pack line defense (which Bo taught better than anyone I'd seen including Bennett imo) in itself requires less "clutching and grabbing" and teams don't do it nearly as bad as they used to be allowed to. Kentucky Bourbon Whiskey is my choice btw :)
 

manderson1984 said:
Agreed that Ryan's sideline antics were over the top.
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I've seen far worse in this league. I don't think he's even in the same class as Bobby Knight. I'd say Fran McCaffrey is worse. Gene Keady could get pretty crazy.
 

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