Pitino and the state of the program

No roster has 13 guys who are all Big 10 upper division players. Some kids level out, are in the wrong system or have issues. Hurt can play, he has helped. So did Stull but it will be limited. They would both dominate D2. By definition they are D1 players and yes, there are D2 kids that can play D1. Same for D3.
 

You just proved his point. That was Chaminades and Augustansas super bowl. It was a 7 on 7 scrimmage for Virginia/ Iowa.

No....his point was, most any 8th-10th man on a major conference Division I team would be a superstar in Division II. That's pretty accurate, and I wouldn't argue it.

My point was that there isn't as much of a difference between division 1 and division 2 players as he was making it out to be. Especially players at Minnesota and Iowa (this isn't your fathers Roy Marble, B.J Armstrong, Ed Horton Hawkeyes teams) compared with top division 2 players. Here is an example....Alec Richter was a great high school basketball player at Lakeville South (he was one of the stars on that Augustana team). I saw his team smoke Tyus Jones Apple Valley team in the section final his senior year. Joey King got a lot of play for the Gophers and was pretty decent for them. He was a great high school player as well. I saw them both play a lot in high school, and there wasn't much of a difference.

BTW, the difference between top division 2 teams and teams like Minnesota and Iowa is much closer than the difference between Duke and an NBA team.
 

No roster has 13 guys who are all Big 10 upper division players. Some kids level out, are in the wrong system or have issues. Hurt can play, he has helped. So did Stull but it will be limited. They would both dominate D2. By definition they are D1 players and yes, there are D2 kids that can play D1. Same for D3.

This is very accurate. Hurt could have gone to a different Division 1 school and had a very good career. It's not like the Gophers are so loaded that Hut hurts them when he is in there.
 

This is very accurate. Hurt could have gone to a different Division 1 school and had a very good career. .

I seem to recall that he has a scholarship offer from William & Mary. Good school. He should have gone there. I still don't think he would have been a star there either; quite possibly not even a starter. He's not that much better than Ahmad Gilbert and Gilbert doesn't play many minutes at Rider.
 

His previous class was just terrible- Oturu, Kalscheur and Omersa....a bunch of D2 guys at best. :rolleyes:

His last class sadly is the outlier. He has one commit at this point. The rest is likely to be spring recruits since nobody has us high on their list other than Hurt who isn't coming here. Roll your eyes all you want but one class doesn't fill a team and isn't indicitive of tue direction of the program.


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No....his point was, most any 8th-10th man on a major conference Division I team would be a superstar in Division II. That's pretty accurate, and I wouldn't argue it.

My point was that there isn't as much of a difference between division 1 and division 2 players as he was making it out to be. Especially players at Minnesota and Iowa (this isn't your fathers Roy Marble, B.J Armstrong, Ed Horton Hawkeyes teams) compared with top division 2 players. Here is an example....Alec Richter was a great high school basketball player at Lakeville South (he was one of the stars on that Augustana team). I saw his team smoke Tyus Jones Apple Valley team in the section final his senior year. Joey King got a lot of play for the Gophers and was pretty decent for them. He was a great high school player as well. I saw them both play a lot in high school, and there wasn't much of a difference.

BTW, the difference between top division 2 teams and teams like Minnesota and Iowa is much closer than the difference between Duke and an NBA team.

Joey King isn't a huge factor or player for a good big ten team. He's easily all NSIC. Also CDH beat Apple Valley in Tyus's sr year. I love NSIC and it's a phenomenal D II conference, but Michael Hurt is easily the top kid in the NSIC this year.

NBA teams is a whole other level. More of a fair comparison would be a HS team vs a college team being a similar comparison as Duke vs and NBA team
 
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His last class sadly is the outlier. He has one commit at this point. The rest is likely to be spring recruits since nobody has us high on their list other than Hurt who isn't coming here. Roll your eyes all you want but one class doesn't fill a team and isn't indicitive of tue direction of the program.


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Amir, Jarvis, Dorsey, IW and Hurt were fall recruits as well.
 

Which is it? Does Pitino not recruit well enough to win or does he not coach well enough to win? I think you can make arguments for both. It's really tough to argue that Wisconsin has more talent than Minnesota, yet they basically have a tournament spot wrapped up at this point and could finish top 4 in the conference. If you look at our neighbors, Wisconsin, Marquette, Iowa, and Iowa State all basically have NCAA tournament bids wrapped up and are playing for seeding right now. That's completely unacceptable to me and it's especially unacceptable when we are in year 6 of the Pitino era and the overall record is what it is.

Personally, I don't think he has done either well enough consistently which is really the only way you get to the type of conference record he has at this point. He missed on so many guards over the last year and a half or so that would have been huge for him. In hindsight, he should have taken Halliburton (Iowa State) instead of waiting on Hunter who chose Purdue. He then missed on a bunch of guys who could have helped this past Spring from a Freshman like McGowens to a grad transfer like Crandall. He literally has not won a single recruiting battle for a non-Minnesota prep since Isaiah Washington.

Then you have roster management: He's had a terrible record on sit out transfers: Lofton, Fitzgerald, Lynch, Stockman. That's 1-4 and and a total of 1 1/3 impact seasons and a bunch of terrible press to go with it. I don't believe he's ever had 12 players available for a season and certainly never had a full roster. He took Stockman in a season where the expectations were Sweet 16 and he was already carrying guys like Gaston on the roster who he knew couldn't play. With his job on the line this season, he took not one but two sit out transfers when he knew he had a bunch of guys who could play a limited role at best (Hurt, Stockman, Omersa)

Then you have the coaching. The offense is an abomination and has been through much of his tenure. If Jordan Murphy wasn't a fantastic offensive rebounder the scoring offense would look even worse. Zones have been a problem for him through much of his tenure. One thing that really bothers me is the he consistently allows the opposition to dictate style of play. A perfect example of this is home games against Iowa and Wisconsin. Iowa's best chance to win is an up and down game with a lot of possessions where they can use their depth and their defense deficiencies are less important. The last two times the Hawkeyes have come to the Barn, that's exactly the type of game that has been played. Wisconsin wants to play a slug fest where possessions are limited and their limited athletes are not exposed either by space on the floor or pace of play. That's exactly the type of game the Gophers have played against Wisconsin in both opportunities this year. Is it really a surprise that Pitino has lost FOUR straight home games to Wisconsin something that has not previously happened in most of our lifetimes? They would have been better served to play a game against Iowa that ended in the 50's or 60's and a game against Wisconsin that finished in the 80's. Neither happened and you didn't really see an effort to dictate pace in any of the three games. His teams have also responded terribly to runs by the opposition. There was no reason for the Pudue, Michigan, and even Iowa runs to get as out of hand as they did. Against Illinois, he put Stockman, Hurt, and Omersa on the court together at the same time in the first half which was a huge reason why a big deficit became an insurmountable one. I haven't seen it this year, but both in year 3 and in year 5 I have seen Pitino teams flat out quit. I can specifically point to at Northwestern last year as a recent example. We are in year 6, and I am still not sure what type of team Pitino wants to have. He prioritized ball pressure guards early in his tenure and had Mathieu, Johnson, Dorsey etc and now he's trying to make Amir a point guard and has just one small guard on his roster. He's prioritized athleticism in the front court, but this recruiting cycle has looked at bigs that would fit a Wisconsin style of play. Omersa and Hurt are clear examples of guys who both are 4's (if they can play at this level) who fit totally different styles of play.
 

Joey King isn't a huge factor or player for a good big ten team. He's easily all NSIC. Also CDH beat Apple Valley in Tyus's sr year. I love NSIC and it's a phenomenal D II conference, but Michael Hurt is easily the top kid in the NSIC this year.

NBA teams is a whole other level. More of a fair comparison would be a HS team vs a college team being a similar comparison as Duke vs and NBA team

Tyus was a stud as an 8th grader and had coaches from all over the country watching his games. I saw many of them at his games. In 9th grade he probably would have been able to play for the Gophers. His 9th grade year he lost to Lakeville South at St. Olaf in the section final. South beat them by about 20 points and Apple Valley had a forward who would go on to play at William and Mary named Schulk. The next year, Tyus lost to Joey King's Eastview team in the section final. Lakeville North, also in the South Suburban, moved to Section 1AAAA and made the state tournament. They lost in the state championship to Osseo I believe by a few points. Eastview and LN both only had one loss that year going into the state tournament, and that was against each other. They both swept Apple Valley, and actually the section championship was the third time Eastview beat Apple Valley that year.

In Tyus Jones junior year they won the state championship, and then his senior year they lost to CDH in the section championship game. I was referring to the loss his 9th grade year against Lakeville South when Alec Richter was a senior. In that section tournament, Fred Hoiberg came up to watch the 9th grader Jones, and possibly even Joey King, who lost to Lakeville South in the section semifinals.
 



Here’s the state of the program. Basketball is supposed to be fun to watch. I’d rather go to the dentist, shovel snow or clean my house than watch us play a road game.
 

Which is it? Does Pitino not recruit well enough to win or does he not coach well enough to win? I think you can make arguments for both. It's really tough to argue that Wisconsin has more talent than Minnesota, yet they basically have a tournament spot wrapped up at this point and could finish top 4 in the conference. If you look at our neighbors, Wisconsin, Marquette, Iowa, and Iowa State all basically have NCAA tournament bids wrapped up and are playing for seeding right now. That's completely unacceptable to me and it's especially unacceptable when we are in year 6 of the Pitino era and the overall record is what it is.

Personally, I don't think he has done either well enough consistently which is really the only way you get to the type of conference record he has at this point. He missed on so many guards over the last year and a half or so that would have been huge for him. In hindsight, he should have taken Halliburton (Iowa State) instead of waiting on Hunter who chose Purdue. He then missed on a bunch of guys who could have helped this past Spring from a Freshman like McGowens to a grad transfer like Crandall. He literally has not won a single recruiting battle for a non-Minnesota prep since Isaiah Washington.

Then you have roster management: He's had a terrible record on sit out transfers: Lofton, Fitzgerald, Lynch, Stockman. That's 1-4 and and a total of 1 1/3 impact seasons and a bunch of terrible press to go with it. I don't believe he's ever had 12 players available for a season and certainly never had a full roster. He took Stockman in a season where the expectations were Sweet 16 and he was already carrying guys like Gaston on the roster who he knew couldn't play. With his job on the line this season, he took not one but two sit out transfers when he knew he had a bunch of guys who could play a limited role at best (Hurt, Stockman, Omersa)

Then you have the coaching. The offense is an abomination and has been through much of his tenure. If Jordan Murphy wasn't a fantastic offensive rebounder the scoring offense would look even worse. Zones have been a problem for him through much of his tenure. One thing that really bothers me is the he consistently allows the opposition to dictate style of play. A perfect example of this is home games against Iowa and Wisconsin. Iowa's best chance to win is an up and down game with a lot of possessions where they can use their depth and their defense deficiencies are less important. The last two times the Hawkeyes have come to the Barn, that's exactly the type of game that has been played. Wisconsin wants to play a slug fest where possessions are limited and their limited athletes are not exposed either by space on the floor or pace of play. That's exactly the type of game the Gophers have played against Wisconsin in both opportunities this year. Is it really a surprise that Pitino has lost FOUR straight home games to Wisconsin something that has not previously happened in most of our lifetimes? They would have been better served to play a game against Iowa that ended in the 50's or 60's and a game against Wisconsin that finished in the 80's. Neither happened and you didn't really see an effort to dictate pace in any of the three games. His teams have also responded terribly to runs by the opposition. There was no reason for the Pudue, Michigan, and even Iowa runs to get as out of hand as they did. Against Illinois, he put Stockman, Hurt, and Omersa on the court together at the same time in the first half which was a huge reason why a big deficit became an insurmountable one. I haven't seen it this year, but both in year 3 and in year 5 I have seen Pitino teams flat out quit. I can specifically point to at Northwestern last year as a recent example. We are in year 6, and I am still not sure what type of team Pitino wants to have. He prioritized ball pressure guards early in his tenure and had Mathieu, Johnson, Dorsey etc and now he's trying to make Amir a point guard and has just one small guard on his roster. He's prioritized athleticism in the front court, but this recruiting cycle has looked at bigs that would fit a Wisconsin style of play. Omersa and Hurt are clear examples of guys who both are 4's (if they can play at this level) who fit totally different styles of play.


This is a point I hadn't thought of....we are going to really miss him next year. While he might never play in the NBA, I know I've understated how good of a basketball player he is at this level. Think of all the times he has bailed our offense out over the last four years.
 

Tyus was a stud as an 8th grader and had coaches from all over the country watching his games. I saw many of them at his games. In 9th grade he probably would have been able to play for the Gophers. His 9th grade year he lost to Lakeville South at St. Olaf in the section final. South beat them by about 20 points and Apple Valley had a forward who would go on to play at William and Mary named Schulk. The next year, Tyus lost to Joey King's Eastview team in the section final. Lakeville North, also in the South Suburban, moved to Section 1AAAA and made the state tournament. They lost in the state championship to Osseo I believe by a few points. Eastview and LN both only had one loss that year going into the state tournament, and that was against each other. They both swept Apple Valley, and actually the section championship was the third time Eastview beat Apple Valley that year.

In Tyus Jones junior year they won the state championship, and then his senior year they lost to CDH in the section championship game. I was referring to the loss his 9th grade year against Lakeville South when Alec Richter was a senior. In that section tournament, Fred Hoiberg came up to watch the 9th grader Jones, and possibly even Joey King, who lost to Lakeville South in the section semifinals.

I read your post incorrectly then as I read you said that They beat Tyus his SR year. Thank you for the clarification. Well aware of Tyus's HS career as I was coaching still back then, but good history lesson. Still stand by my comparison of NSIC players vs B10 players.
 





This is a point I hadn't thought of....we are going to really miss him next year. While he might never play in the NBA, I know I've understated how good of a basketball player he is at this level. Think of all the times he has bailed our offense out over the last four years.

I'm not fully sold on this yet. I think Curry getting healthy and Oturo getting better will help us not miss him as much. Love Murph, but he has his limitations as well that has an effect on others. I also thought our offense would be better without Mason because he was so ball dominant. He bailed us out mostly in timeswhen we were mostly injured or in the dumpster during his Freshman and Jr years. Would've been interesting to see what his rebounding totals had been if Lynch and Curry had been out last year.
 

I read your post incorrectly then as I read you said that They beat Tyus his SR year. Thank you for the clarification. Well aware of Tyus's HS career as I was coaching still back then, but good history lesson. Still stand by my comparison of NSIC players vs B10 players.

I probably wasn't very clear about the year. I think B1G players would be studs in the Northern Sun. There is a different skill level and in many cases size difference, I'm not arguing that. I just said that Augustana beat Iowa a few years ago, not that Augustana was better than Iowa. When I was in college, Wartburg (a division 3 school in Iowa) had a really good team. They played UNI really tough one year. UNI ended up making the NCAA tournament that year and I think beat a highly rated Missouri team. That was the year the Gophers ended up beating UNI and making a run in the tournament. It was one of Clem's early teams. Now I know you can't use the transitive property in basketball, but it was kind of a cool situation.

I was hoping that Michael Hurt would become a Joey King type of player at the U and that his brother would follow him there. I heard that their father really liked Pitino's dad. I don't know if Matthew Hurt will be a one and done. A lot of players as highly rated as him are, so he could be, but I thought he might stay a while. It doesn't seem the Gophers are really in on his recruitment anymore, but he is a fun high school basketball player to watch play.

I grew up in the 70's, 80's and 90's. I want to the Gophers to be good. I'm sick of the Badgers beating us in basketball and football like they have for the 25 years. It's even worse that the Packers have had a resurgence. When I was in college in the late 80's, I never would have expected it. At that time I was used to Iowa beating us up, but not Wisconsin. I just want a good football and basketball team. If Wisconsin can do it, why not Minnesota? We should have definite advantages over them.
 

His last class sadly is the outlier. He has one commit at this point. The rest is likely to be spring recruits since nobody has us high on their list other than Hurt who isn't coming here. Roll your eyes all you want but one class doesn't fill a team and isn't indicitive of tue direction of the program.


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No his last class is not an outlier. He has recruited well here since his first two classes- which hurt him because of too many misses or short term fixes. Since then he has had some real nice classes and this one is not over.

The class of Murphy, Dorsey, McBrayer, Jarvis Johnson and Gilbert was a real good one. Got two bad breaks - Jarvis' heart and Dorsey turned out to be a bad apple
Then you get Coffey, Curry and Hurt. Hurt was a miss but Coffey a homerun and Curry has had tough luck with health and is still not really back from it
Then Kalscheur, Oturu, Omersa, Carr and Willis

Those are solid classes. So I see no trend there.
 
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No his last class is not an outlier. He has recruited well here since his first two classes- which hurt him because of too many misses or short term fixes. Since then he has had some real nice classes and this one is not over.

The class of Murphy, Dorsey, McBrayer, Jarvis Johnson and Gilbert was a real good one. Got two bad breaks - Jarvis' heart and Dorsey turned out to be a bad apple
Then you get Coffey, Curry and Hurt. Hurt was a miss but Coffey a homerun and Curry has had tough luck with health and is still not really back from it
Then Kalscheur, Oturu and Omersa

Those are solid classes. So I see no trend there.

Yet we don't go to the NCAA tourney or win Big 10 games consistently?
 

Yet we don't go to the NCAA tourney or win Big 10 games consistently?

Exactly. Either these recruiting classes, "solid" as they are, still aren't good enough, or the talent isn't being utilized or developed to its full potential. At the end of the day, this is a bottom line business.
 

Yet we don't go to the NCAA tourney or win Big 10 games consistently?

Well Tim- We went two years ago and won 11 games....a rare feat here. Then last year we had horrendous luck- I think you would agree that last year was not coaching or recruiting right? This year is not over- we may well go to the tourney. This could very well have been a year where we would be talking about going to the NCAAs and unprecedented three years in a row here. I don't think that has ever happened at Minnesota before.

By the way my post neglected to add Carr (who most agree will be a big deal here) and Willis.
 

The class of Murphy, Dorsey, McBrayer, Jarvis Johnson and Gilbert was a real good one. Got two bad breaks - Jarvis' heart and Dorsey turned out to be a bad apple
Then you get Coffey, Curry and Hurt. Hurt was a miss but Coffey a homerun and Curry has had tough luck with health and is still not really back from it
Then Kalscheur, Oturu and Omersa

Look, EVERYTHING COUNTS! Even luck. Every coach has bad breaks but some have more than others (maybe it's not all luck). A potentially good player who never panned out is not a good player.

Murphy is great. Dorsey was a head case who got in trouble here, got in trouble afterward, and never managed to put it together anywhere else. Jarvis was a medical casualty who never played a minute. Gilbert was weak here and is still weak (hardly plays at all for Rider). McBrayer is just so-so at best. If you viewed this objectively instead of through your wannabe sunshine reality you would concede that McBrayer's career here has been pretty mediocre. There was ONE good player in that class - ONLY ONE.

The next class had one good player and another player who started out well but has been hurt for a year and a half. Hopefully his health will improve and he'll be good again but he's not so good now and hasn't been since two years ago.

The next class had two players: one who transferred after having a an inconsequential freshman year. The other is a point guard with four star ball handling but two star shooting and finishing.

The most recent class has one very good post player who could be all conference, one shooting guard who probably has the ceiling of an average to a bit above average Big Ten starter, and a forward whose ceiling we don't know yet but he can barely see the floor now and gets in a game only after Hurt (and sometimes Stull).


That's four players in four years ranging from pretty good to very good, one player who has some very well developed skills but is fairly deficient in others, and one player who isn't fully healed. I guess the number of good players recruited wouldn't be so bad if he could fill in the rest of the roster with reasonably capable role players who look like they can actually play some quality minutes in the Big Ten. The Pitino apologists always like to stress the best players he's recruited but never seem to want to talk about all the truly deficient players and washouts he recruited.
 

Look, EVERYTHING COUNTS! Even luck. Every coach has bad breaks but some have more than others (maybe it's not all luck). A potentially good player who never panned out is not a good player.

Murphy is great. Dorsey was a head case who got in trouble here, got in trouble afterward, and never managed to put it together anywhere else. Jarvis was a medical casualty who never played a minute. Gilbert was weak here and is still weak (hardly plays at all for Rider). McBrayer is just so-so at best. If you viewed this objectively instead of through your wannabe sunshine reality you would concede that McBrayer's career here has been pretty mediocre. There was ONE good player in that class - ONLY ONE.

The next class had one good player and another player who started out well but has been hurt for a year and a half. Hopefully his health will improve and he'll be good again but he's not so good now and hasn't been since two years ago.

The next class had two players: one who transferred after having a an inconsequential freshman year. The other is a point guard with four star ball handling but two star shooting and finishing.

The most recent class has one very good post player who could be all conference, one shooting guard who probably has the ceiling of an average to a bit above average Big Ten starter, and a forward whose ceiling we don't know yet but he can barely see the floor now and gets in a game only after Hurt (and sometimes Stull).


That's four players in four years ranging from pretty good to very good, one player who has some very well developed skills but is fairly deficient in others, and one player who isn't fully healed. I guess the number of good players recruited wouldn't be so bad if he could fill in the rest of the roster with reasonably capable role players who look like they can actually play some quality minutes in the Big Ten. The Pitino apologists always like to stress the best players he's recruited but never seem to want to talk about all the truly deficient players and washouts he recruited.

Everything counts including luck- you are absolutely right. At the end of this year the AD will evaluate the record and attempt to determine whether his chance of winning more games going forward is better with the current unlucky coach or some future coach who may or may not be lucky. Chances are he will take a look at the totality of it and will consider what might have been last year. Pitino may well be toast. I don't know. But the AD will almost surely look at more than just the record. He will be looking for evidence as to whether he thinks Pitino will win in the future.

Starting over sounds fun, and in a way, I'm tempted, because that next coach could be the pot of gold. Starting over is also rough on the program and each coach that is fired makes it tougher to hire the next good one and have success. Maybe he has Mussleman in his pocket. If so I'd be excited about that. I doubt it though.
 
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No his last class is not an outlier. He has recruited well here since his first two classes- which hurt him because of too many misses or short term fixes. Since then he has had some real nice classes and this one is not over.

The class of Murphy, Dorsey, McBrayer, Jarvis Johnson and Gilbert was a real good one. Got two bad breaks - Jarvis' heart and Dorsey turned out to be a bad apple
Then you get Coffey, Curry and Hurt. Hurt was a miss but Coffey a homerun and Curry has had tough luck with health and is still not really back from it
Then Kalscheur, Oturu, Omersa, Carr and Willis

Those are solid classes. So I see no trend there.

So out of those two classes he got two starters a marginal starter and a guy we hope heals from injury. The rest isn't very good. You and I don't agree on what solid is. More misses than hits.


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So out of those two classes he got two starters a marginal starter and a guy we hope heals from injury. The rest isn't very good. You and I don't agree on what solid is. More misses than hits.


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Which two classes? I listed three.

By the way- I just noticed I missed a class. We also had the IW, Harris and Stockman group. So far not a real good class, even though IW looked like a great get at the time and may still be.
 
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So out of those two classes he got two starters a marginal starter and a guy we hope heals from injury. The rest isn't very good. You and I don't agree on what solid is. More misses than hits.


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I'd argue that with the amount of transfers and world where kids don't redshirt or wait to develop, most programs have to take chances on kids and have a lot of misses, maybe even more than hits,luckily you play 7 out 13 guys 85% of the minutes so it's ok I feel hits are good. Also many of those misses were Kimanis and Conroys guys. I quiestion their ability to evaluate talent. I don't know enough of Lindsteds evaluation ability yet, but Jeter is a great evaluator. Still Richards fault for the hire so he's not clean nor is it an excuse for him.
 

Well Tim- We went two years ago and won 11 games....a rare feat here. Then last year we had horrendous luck- I think you would agree that last year was not coaching or recruiting right? This year is not over- we may well go to the tourney. This could very well have been a year where we would be talking about going to the NCAAs and unprecedented three years in a row here. I don't think that has ever happened at Minnesota before.

By the way my post neglected to add Carr (who most agree will be a big deal here) and Willis.

Horrendous luck last year, yes!

but anyone who watched them before the horrendous luck(lynch, coffey, etc) was worried about what they were seeing. They would not have made the tournament had the bad luck not happened if one goes by what they looked like when healthy.
 
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No his last class is not an outlier. He has recruited well here since his first two classes- which hurt him because of too many misses or short term fixes. Since then he has had some real nice classes and this one is not over.

The class of Murphy, Dorsey, McBrayer, Jarvis Johnson and Gilbert was a real good one. Got two bad breaks - Jarvis' heart and Dorsey turned out to be a bad apple
Then you get Coffey, Curry and Hurt. Hurt was a miss but Coffey a homerun and Curry has had tough luck with health and is still not really back from it
Then Kalscheur, Oturu, Omersa, Carr and Willis

Those are solid classes. So I see no trend there.

Those classes by a great coach would never be 37-65 or whatever the hell we are. Great coaches at non blue bloods win more with less. Look it up. Whether or not fans like him or not it is his job to hire a great staff, to recruit good players, to develop them, to win. He made terrible mistakes on character on players other coaches would not touch. Lots of coaches knew of 4 kids that they would not take and we did. That is a terrible mistake on every level. Then to consistently be a lower than top 70 defense, that will have tragic consequences in a power 6 school. There is no way to say he is a really good coach and a really good recruiter and has that record. That just is not how to measure that. Now he can change it. The defense is improving and we are becoming more difficult to defeat. Those two go together and should have been instilled on day one. Go on the run now, go 12-8, win in the tourney and save your job. That makes for a really good year. To be a really good coach, win the conference next year and string together 5 conference seasons in a row over .500. Then you are a really good coach. It is ok to recognize that this is historically bad and some of us are looking at being historically great. That is not even asking much as we a mediocre history, look it up.
 

Those classes by a great coach would never be 37-65 or whatever the hell we are. Great coaches at non blue bloods win more with less. Look it up. Whether or not fans like him or not it is his job to hire a great staff, to recruit good players, to develop them, to win. He made terrible mistakes on character on players other coaches would not touch. Lots of coaches knew of 4 kids that they would not take and we did. That is a terrible mistake on every level. Then to consistently be a lower than top 70 defense, that will have tragic consequences in a power 6 school. There is no way to say he is a really good coach and a really good recruiter and has that record. That just is not how to measure that. Now he can change it. The defense is improving and we are becoming more difficult to defeat. Those two go together and should have been instilled on day one. Go on the run now, go 12-8, win in the tourney and save your job. That makes for a really good year. To be a really good coach, win the conference next year and string together 5 conference seasons in a row over .500. Then you are a really good coach. It is ok to recognize that this is historically bad and some of us are looking at being historically great. That is not even asking much as we a mediocre history, look it up.

He's not a great coach. Yet. I don't know if he will be or not. What happened last year is what gives me pause. Again, if last year had gone on with normal luck he would have had a really nice year, there is almost no doubt. To repeat an earlier post, we would be now working on two straight and maybe looking at a third straight NCAA appearance. Unprecedented at Minnesota. Yes- not great...but we would be saying that the program has momentum which is what you need to get great.
 

Horrendous luck last year, yes!

but anyone who watched them before the horrendous luck(lynch, coffey, etc) was worried about what they were seeing. They would not have made the tournament had the bad luck not happened if one goes by what they looked like when healthy.

I completely disagree. Almost every team has bad stretches. Look at MSU right now... they will be fine. So would have last year's Gophers been.
 

Seems like would have, could have and if are always present. Every program has the chance at excuses. More concerned with what we are, how we play, who we are and that damn pesky winning thing. We have to measure the bottom line. 37-65 says terrible and surely no one would say that we were headed for 14-4 last year. Bringing Lynch on board came with known risks. Other coaches that had been asked about bringing him in passed for a reason. Yet, here we are now and i still like this team to win 12-13 and that sounds foolish but we have become hard to beat because of better defense and that is the first step in not losing. Damn, only two years did we have a acceptable defense.
 




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