Pitino and the state of the program

Do people develop into being shooters in college?

I know it happens on occasion. I know shot selection can make a freshmen's 3pt % bad and it may increase as they stay in school.

I think most really good shooters in college were really good shooters in high school. Relying on ok shooters in high school to develop in college is probably a risk.
 

Marquette is ranked 10th in the country. Both Sacar and Theo John start for them. Like someone else has pointed out, you didn't even bring up Wright. Davison and Reuvers both start for a top 20 Wisconsin team. Sims started as a freshmen on an NCAA Texas team. Yeah we could use all 6 of those guys. We've struck out so far in the 2019 Minnesota class. You also conveniently leave out the 2014 class of Tyus, Travis, Vaughn and Macura. Oh that's right, we should never expect to get the good players who go play for the Blue Bloods like UNLV, Xavier and Stanford.

I didn't conveniently leave out the 2014 class. As others have said, it is very difficult to expect a new coach to come in and make up that much ground over one summer. If the Gophers move on from Pitino this April, I would then expect you to blast the coach that has yet to be named for not landing any of the 2020 class this November? That's ridiculous. I also "conveniently left out" the 2013 class and prior ones for which Pitino wasn't the coach.

I wasn't trying to leave off Wright. He was the 6th rated recruit in the 2017 class. He could have had a spot in September 2016 but chose not to. Are you suggesting Pitino should have turned down a guy 150 ranking spots better than him in IW ready to commit after his visit in September 2016 for a guy that may or may not commit six months later? That doesn't seem very logical to me. Wright may end up being the better player. We shall see.

In Sacar Anim....he certainly wouldn't start in front of Amir on this team. Frankly his numbers are less than Dupree's, a guy that many on this board don't think is worthy of a scholarship.

Also important to remember the 2017 class had two scholarships available. I will grant you the Jamir Harris signing was a miss. It would be nice to have one of the guys mentioned in that spot. But that counts as one unless you are suggesting we should start Creaning our team for Minnesota players. Also absurd.

The 2019 class hasn't even played out yet. I'm not going to start blasting Pitino for a recruiting cycle that isn't even over.

My original post was intended to address the non-stop criticism on this board regarding Minnesota recruiting and the "problem" of not shutting down the borders. The list above illustrates the fallacy of suggesting Pitino's lack of success is due to his mismanagement of Minnesota recruiting. Hardly the case. By the way, we are putting aside kids may actually want to experience a different part of the country....i.e. Stanford.....
 

Do we have a shooting coach? Does Pitino ever get Trent Tucker to come over and work with the guys on their motion to be more consistent?

Just because the player was a good shooter, doesn't mean he can teach guys how to shoot. Once guys get to college, they don't touch jumps shots a ton. Also newer coaching philosophies have really changed on what the focus of jump shooting is. Feet and lower body are basically irrelevant. Really the only focus is on how the shot is finished. Pitino has recruited shooters, they just haven't panned out (Harris, Stull, Jarvis was a decent shooter who was going to get better in college).
 

Wait, are some arguing identity is not important? Golden State changed the NBA with a specific identity. The league followed. Name the best and most consistent teams in any sport over time and they have an identity; a formula on how to make it work. Sometimes it needs to be fluid, contingent on specific skills on the roster. It does not always have to be extremely narrow and specific. If you are not known for something, you are known for nothing. I think the Gopher football team is establishing an identity. From what I have seen, off the court Pitino has shown class and commitment to his players and appears to be a good cat -- which in itself is something that should be appreciated and is an off the court identity. On the court it has been a little less clear, but it usually is when you are not a top 20/30 team -- it is an indication you are trying to find yourself. Winning and identity *kind of* go hand in hand. That stated, the Gophers had some pretty bad basketball teams in years past that were fun to watch purely on effort (who does not like to watch a team that consistently outworks their opponent?), which in itself is an identity. I think Pitino has the *chance* to be really good, but can he get it done in time to please the masses? Time will tell.
 

2017 Wright

Four spots for 2019 and lots of misses.

Nnaji
Wahl
Terry
Probably Hurt
Roddy

How do you know they were even after those kids (having offers doesn't really mean they were after them) and speculated doesn't count either. Nnaji may be the only one that I would even remotely think is a miss.
 


It's way too early to throw in the towel in Sims and John. I'd still bet on them becoming major contributors before it's all said and done.

Very possible. Players that would have made the Gophers conference champions or "top 15" programs? Unlikely.

But as I said in my response to ethomasp31, I would have liked to have the Jamir Harris scholarship over again. I will grant that "miss".

I would, however, challenge anyone to find a coach on any team that doesn't have misses in his resume. The transfer list would quickly refute that assumption.
 

They never went after the guys that were better coaches than Richard that they could have had because they did think they were better and did not know who to talk to.

Who are you referencing here? Gard, Fife, Archie Miller? I'm pretty sure Richard was not a top 8 choice or offer. Only ones close to taking it were Flip and Hoiberg. Taylor got to Flip first and Hoiberg knew he was going to get an NBA gig within the next couple years. Now I can agree there were better guys that they could've offered it too, but Teague got sold pretty hard by his contacts. Coaches knew it would be hard to win here because of lack of support/resources and there wasn't a sure thing that they would get those yet.
 

How do you know they were even after those kids (having offers doesn't really mean they were after them) and speculated doesn't count either. Nnaji may be the only one that I would even remotely think is a miss.

Terry is most definitely a miss. You can probably safely assume that Roddy and Wahl were fallbacks at best, but when Hurt presumably signs elsewhere, that will be 0-3 on 2019 in-state recruits that Minnesota most definitely wanted.
 

and for those who keep comparing Clem to Rich....Clem did way more harm than good for this program.

it really is not a fare comparison. The man cheated(and got caught) and cost this program many years of sanctions.
 



Terry is most definitely a miss. You can probably safely assume that Roddy and Wahl were fallbacks at best, but when Hurt presumably signs elsewhere, that will be 0-3 on 2019 in-state recruits that Minnesota most definitely wanted.
We will agree to disagree

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Michigan State plays tough, grind it out basketball? That's an identity? Kenpom has them 6th in adjO in the country. Is that consistent with grind out it out basketball? Is that different than what other coaches including Pitino are trying to do? We haven't played tough, grind it out basketball this year? Is that really an identity? Michigan State consistently has the best recruits in the conference. Is that an identity?

Wisconsin is really the only team that has a different offensive style. But right now we are 1-0 against them and could be 2-0 after Wednesday night. Iowa? Not playing defense, is that an identity you want? Right now we are 1-0 against them, and tied with them in the standings.

Michigan is currently 8th in the B1G in 3 pt made this season. That's their identity?

I think Pitino has an identity. He's trying to recruit multi-dimensional players with length and mix them with shooters. We have one of, if not the tallest starting lineup in the conference. Coffey, Curry, Oturu, McBrayer mixed with the shooting of Gabe. Yes he's missed on a few guys like Harris, and it's possible he thought players like McBrayer, Coffey, Washington, Hurt would develop a better outside shot.

Right now this 'lack of identity' has the Gophers at 16-6, and they will make the NCAA tournament for the 2nd time in 3 years if they take care of business down the stretch. I think identity is a misnomer, and most teams lack a true identity, or it changes each year depending on the players that are recruited.

Nearly all coaches are trying to recruit the best talent possible, then developing that talent into as many wins as possible. Pitino is no different.

Your ignoring the defensive ranking, the rugged physical half court defense that Izzo lectures about in his clinic. He actually sells it as their brand and identity. UW , lockdown team defense, precision offense, mistake free.
UVA - pack line defense, among the best ever at it and what most people do not know a incredible offense, one of the nations best. Ignorance calls it slow but just in two dribbles per possession it moves up 75 places in pace. If they were sloppy and quickly turned it over 5 more times per game they would move up another 75, and then finally, if they would just guard poorly and give you a good shot quickly they would be far faster than any team we have had here. Your right, Pitino tried recruiting to how he wanted to play but that has worked out poorly at 37-67. Nationally we have zero identity for what we are known for. The above teams sell a brand of what they do that wins. Every single successful sports team has a identity, A CULTURE instilled on day one. I have studied this and been around coaches for 5 decades and every single great coach believes this. Pitinos dad believed it and demanded it and won with it at every college stop. Toughness and blood letting defense. UNC, OFFENSIVE rebounds and relentless transition. Duke, all world talent but great defense, great shooters. We have no identity.
 

We will agree to disagree

I would love to hear your argument on how a top 50-75 in-state player at a huge position of need, and with offers from Indiana, Stanford, Iowa, and Nebraska among many others, is not a miss.
 

I would love to hear your argument on how a top 50-75 in-state player at a huge position of need, and with offers from Indiana, Stanford, Iowa, and Nebraska among many others, is not a miss.
Did he have a MN offer?

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Your ignoring the defensive ranking, the rugged physical half court defense that Izzo lectures about in his clinic. He actually sells it as their brand and identity. UW , lockdown team defense, precision offense, mistake free.
UVA - pack line defense, among the best ever at it and what most people do not know a incredible offense, one of the nations best. Ignorance calls it slow but just in two dribbles per possession it moves up 75 places in pace. If they were sloppy and quickly turned it over 5 more times per game they would move up another 75, and then finally, if they would just guard poorly and give you a good shot quickly they would be far faster than any team we have had here. Your right, Pitino tried recruiting to how he wanted to play but that has worked out poorly at 37-67. Nationally we have zero identity for what we are known for. The above teams sell a brand of what they do that wins. Every single successful sports team has a identity, A CULTURE instilled on day one. I have studied this and been around coaches for 5 decades and every single great coach believes this. Pitinos dad believed it and demanded it and won with it at every college stop. Toughness and blood letting defense. UNC, OFFENSIVE rebounds and relentless transition. Duke, all world talent but great defense, great shooters. We have no identity.

Ah, so now aw shucks Roy has an identity. Other than academic fraud.

Losing cred badger boy.......
 

and for those who keep comparing Clem to Rich....Clem did way more harm than good for this program.

it really is not a fare comparison. The man cheated(and got caught) and cost this program many years of sanctions.

He didn't cheat. He says he didn't even know about it. Had what happened here taken place at any other university, it wouldn't have even been a story.
The holier than tough U of M went after him hard and threw him under the bus.

And of course it isn't a fair comparison. Clem was one of the better coaches in the Big Ten in a time when the Big Ten was tough as hell. The barn was the place to be
when he was here and teams never won here, period.

Richard isn't fit to ties Clem's shoes. And I'm a guy that thinks we need to stick with Richard for awhile yet.
 

Terry is most definitely a miss. You can probably safely assume that Roddy and Wahl were fallbacks at best, but when Hurt presumably signs elsewhere, that will be 0-3 on 2019 in-state recruits that Minnesota most definitely wanted.

I was unaware that teams are just able to draft players and force them to report. That certainly would make things easier. Which zip codes do we own?
 


He didn't cheat. He says he didn't even know about it. Had what happened here taken place at any other university, it wouldn't have even been a story.
The holier than tough U of M went after him hard and threw him under the bus.

And of course it isn't a fair comparison. Clem was one of the better coaches in the Big Ten in a time when the Big Ten was tough as hell. The barn was the place to be
when he was here and teams never won here, period.

Richard isn't fit to ties Clem's shoes. And I'm a guy that thinks we need to stick with Richard for awhile yet.
Fact.... his program got caught cheating

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He didn't cheat. He says he didn't even know about it. Had what happened here taken place at any other university, it wouldn't have even been a story.
The holier than tough U of M went after him hard and threw him under the bus.

And of course it isn't a fair comparison. Clem was one of the better coaches in the Big Ten in a time when the Big Ten was tough as hell. The barn was the place to be
when he was here and teams never won here, period.

Richard isn't fit to ties Clem's shoes. And I'm a guy that thinks we need to stick with Richard for awhile yet.

Clem was a great coach. He cheated and he knew it. Clem was in control of what happened and he rationalized that he was doing it for the best interests of the kids, who he loved to help.

I agree with you that the scandal wasn't as huge as it got made out to be and that it would have been papered over in most college towns.
 

I was unaware that teams are just able to draft players and force them to report. That certainly would make things easier. Which zip codes do we own?

Pathetic attempt. Try harder.
 


I was unaware that teams are just able to draft players and force them to report. That certainly would make things easier. Which zip codes do we own?

Getting those kids to choose MN is kind of part of the job, no?
 

Terry is most definitely a miss. You can probably safely assume that Roddy and Wahl were fallbacks at best, but when Hurt presumably signs elsewhere, that will be 0-3 on 2019 in-state recruits that Minnesota most definitely wanted.

Tyler Wahl is going to be a heck of a 4 yr player at Wisconsin.
 

Sacar-I believe we ignored
Theo John-We recruited heavy, he decided to go elsewhere
Reuvers-Said he had no interest in Minnesota.
Davison-Didn't recruit until late, probably a mistake. But I'm glad I don't have defend his flopping and whining to refs
2014-Tough to expect first year coach to keep those guys. Macura is probably the only one I would consider reasonable target


MN basketball is disappointing and hire of Pitino there were going to be growing pains.

Lets see how this season plays out.

Davison-thank goodness he's not a gopher.
Reuvers- we were too late in the game and didn't recruit him as hard as Bucky did.

My point was not in mentioning the 2020 class that we've missed out on a lot of top level MN recruits in the past. My point was that looking forward, to evaluate the state of the program, it's bad if we can't land 3 or four of those guys. Garcia, Suggs, Walton and Carlson could absolutely play on the court together. We really want all of these guys, and Holmgren, so if they don't come, what is wrong?
 

Davison-thank goodness he's not a gopher.
Reuvers- we were too late in the game and didn't recruit him as hard as Bucky did.

My point was not in mentioning the 2020 class that we've missed out on a lot of top level MN recruits in the past. My point was that looking forward, to evaluate the state of the program, it's bad if we can't land 3 or four of those guys. Garcia, Suggs, Walton and Carlson could absolutely play on the court together. We really want all of these guys, and Holmgren, so if they don't come, what is wrong?

I think we had 0% shot at Reuvers. There was a lot of off court drama and he mentioned he wanted nothign to do with the program. I don't think we could've swayed him

There are reasons beyond coach. For as successful as Wi has been, they've missed out on a lot of home state talent as well.

1. I agree we can't stick with Pitino forever and results need to start.
2. Constantly starting over will only continue to set this program back
3. We need to figure out if we want to let Pitino grow, or start over, but if they start over, they better get it right.
 

Clem was run out for "Lack of institutional control" wasn't he? Much like a ship captain gets fired because his ship runs aground while he is asleep and someone else is driving.
 

Davison-thank goodness he's not a gopher.
Reuvers- we were too late in the game and didn't recruit him as hard as Bucky did.

My point was not in mentioning the 2020 class that we've missed out on a lot of top level MN recruits in the past. My point was that looking forward, to evaluate the state of the program, it's bad if we can't land 3 or four of those guys. Garcia, Suggs, Walton and Carlson could absolutely play on the court together. We really want all of these guys, and Holmgren, so if they don't come, what is wrong?

Should not have been late with Reuvers, not top 50 but good at everything; skills, shooting, decent athleticism, and size even as a sophomore in High School. Probably would not have made a difference but I don't think he was borderline at all, I don't know the other PF's on the AAU circuit at the time and how he matched up but that shouldn't make a difference.
 

I agree with the "identity" issue.

Most successful coaches have a style or a system that they use, AND they recruit players who fit that system. As WI showed, you don't have to necessarily have world-class athletes IF you get good athletes who fit a specific role in your system.

there are other coaches or programs who just go out and get the best athletes they can, and then design a system to get the most out of those athletes and their skill set.

But Pitino doesn't seem to fit either category. Unless running the shot clock down and making a kamikaze drive to the basket is a system.....

Dutcher's good teams were all built around post play. Clem never had great scoring big men, but he always had tough, versatile players at the small forward and shooting guard spots.

Again - what is Pitino's system? What is this team's identity?
 

I agree with the "identity" issue.

Most successful coaches have a style or a system that they use, AND they recruit players who fit that system. As WI showed, you don't have to necessarily have world-class athletes IF you get good athletes who fit a specific role in your system.

there are other coaches or programs who just go out and get the best athletes they can, and then design a system to get the most out of those athletes and their skill set.

But Pitino doesn't seem to fit either category. Unless running the shot clock down and making a kamikaze drive to the basket is a system.....

Dutcher's good teams were all built around post play. Clem never had great scoring big men, but he always had tough, versatile players at the small forward and shooting guard spots.

Again - what is Pitino's system? What is this team's identity?

This comes up implicitly every time someone says, well, we lost such-and-such recruit to Wisconsin because he's a Wisconsin-style player and everyone knows it. It's interesting because Richard talks a lot about how appealing our style of play is to recruits, but I'm not sure what that is or if even he could articulate it other than the vague term "up tempo." I know that they do indeed stress getting down the floor after a missed shot, so I guess there is that, but is that really an identity that you can sell - where someone is going to say, well, we lost that recruit to Minnesota because of their style of play? Maybe, but I seriously doubt it.
 




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