Pitino and the state of the program

We are actually 37-64 (not 34-67) which is still bad but, it's not far from the program's historical average and I give Pitino a complete pass on last year, a year with more bad luck than any I have every seen.

Throw last year out and we are sitting at 33- 50 or .40. Without the injuries and Lynch issue the record might well be around 45 -56 (45%) (12-6 last year is about where we'd have been sans the injuries and issue with Lynch) which would be the best record of any coach since Musselman.

You figure it your way and no one can fault you for it- I completely get it and I am frustrated with how the program struggles. That said, my guess is that Coyle is looking at this more realistically per my point of view because he has to live in the real world. If he can bring us Musselman or someone that is that sure fire- great. I'm not so sure that would happen.

LOL - "real world" apparently means to pretend that all the bad things didn't happen and then substitute the imagined best-case scenario for what really happened. You can't make it up.

Everyone's record would be a lot better if injuries didn't happen and if all of their players behaved like choir boys.

Also, "not far from the program's historical average"? Pitino's Big Ten winning percentage is .366, while the school's is .464. If you want to pretend that all of the cheating scandals didn't happen and include the vacated games, it's even better than that .464.
 
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He didn't mention the guy who quit and went to Santa Clara either.
 

What if it is 4 more years without doing even a single top 4, then what ?

Then...more likely before then...I would consider us in Tubby territory. After Tubby's last season here, I would easily convince myself that he deserved another year (even though I was unhappy with his recruiting efforts up to that point). I could also easily convince myself that it was time to move on, because the program deserved more than they had gotten.

By the time the decision to move on was made, I was on board with making the move. If we go a full 4 seasons past this one without a top 4 finish, then I think we've waited too long to rip off the band-aid and move on.
 

LOL - "real world" apparently means to pretend that all the bad things didn't happen and then substitute the imagined best-case scenario for what really happened. You can't make it up.

Everyone's record would be a lot better if injuries didn't happen and if all of their players behaved like choir boys.

Also, "not far from the program's historical average"? Pitino's Big Ten winning percentage is .366, while the school's is .464. If you want to pretend that all of the cheating scandals didn't happen and include the vacated games, it's even better than that .464.

Last year was a throw away year that you cannot blame on the coach. We were a top 10 team in the country before it all happened. His record is his record. However, in the real world of hiring coaches for millions (you will have to pay the next coach a BOATLOAD to get a sure thing), you better factor in situations like that into your thinking. I have zero doubt that Coyle is thinking that way. That said- if this team tanks- he's toast.
 

He didn't mention the guy who quit and went to Santa Clara either.

Martin was recruited 5 years ago. I pulled in 4 years. Pitino's first couple of years of recruiting hurt him bad- except for Mason.

The last two years of Tubby and the first two years of Pitino were really bad in terms of recruiting. That's why his record stinks, along with last year's horrible misfortune.
 


Rosters in college hoops can turn over pretty quickly in a few years. If after 3 years its just a wash and rinse again. It's fair to start questioning philosophy. The Gophers fans are very patient and are frustrated. Contrast your reaction to Indiana and I think you can feel pretty good about yourselves. In college hoops is starts with the right coach period. It's up to him to get the right fit by the players that he can get. It's not about stars first. It should be character and cultural fit first every time. It's not even about playing with low tempo or high tempo, high flyers or gravity bound recruits. You recruit to your culture, and then coach the hell out of them. I think Rich Pitino will get more time if his team plays into the NCAA and wins a game or two. Hope to beat you guys this week. After that, Good luck.
 

Last year was a throw away year that you cannot blame on the coach. We were a top 10 team in the country before it all happened. His record is his record. However, in the real world of hiring coaches for millions (you will have to pay the next coach a BOATLOAD to get a sure thing), you better factor in situations like that into your thinking. I have zero doubt that Coyle is thinking that way. That said- if this team tanks- he's toast.

Bet Tubby wishes he could throw away his worst year here. If you are going to do it for Pitino, you should also do it for anyone we compare him to.
 

his culture is non existant, I couldn't tell you what Gopher Basketball is about other than a weave action and dribble handoff for 10 seconds after we struggle to get the ball down the court.
I hear you a bit on the identity thing. However, I think we can see bits of what Richard wants it to be. He wants it to be a push-it-up the floor offense - after both makes and misses by the opponent. He wants the point guard to be a playmaker - but so far either the point guard was missing or the sure-handed inside guys have been missing. We have also been missing 3 point shooters at times (this year). You can lay the blame on Richard for these deficiencies for sure. But it's tough to have an identity of lots of high-low sets or penetrate and dish when you have guys inside that can't catch a pass. The lack of 3 point shooting outside of Joey King has really hurt us as well.

I think all the "mindless dribbling" you see on the perimeter is the guards looking for a crease to drive and dish, drive and finish or drive and kick. I think that's what Richard would like to see his half court offense be.

Just some "mindless thoughts............."
 

Bet Tubby wishes he could throw away his worst year here. If you are going to do it for Pitino, you should also do it for anyone we compare him to.

The problem with that is all of Tubby's years have been mediocre. He hasn't surpassed a conference record of 10-8 since the 2004-2005 season.
 



Last year was a throw away year that you cannot blame on the coach. We were a top 10 team in the country before it all happened. His record is his record. However, in the real world of hiring coaches for millions (you will have to pay the next coach a BOATLOAD to get a sure thing), you better factor in situations like that into your thinking. I have zero doubt that Coyle is thinking that way. That said- if this team tanks- he's toast.

You don't get "throw away years" IMO. If you've done well, you'll have built up enough equity to withstand a season that's wrecked by injuries. If Pitino hasn't, that's on him. 1 NCAA in 6 years isn't good enough. "Shoulda" appearances don't count. Tubby's best team (2009) was derailed by injuries/off-court issues too, but they still made the NCAAs. His second best team wasn't as lucky (2011). If 2009 and 2011 go as planned, he certainly would have gotten 2-3 more season and might very well still be here. It's fair that these last 9 games will decide Pitino's future.
 
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Rosters in college hoops can turn over pretty quickly in a few years. If after 3 years its just a wash and rinse again. It's fair to start questioning philosophy. The Gophers fans are very patient and are frustrated. Contrast your reaction to Indiana and I think you can feel pretty good about yourselves. In college hoops is starts with the right coach period. It's up to him to get the right fit by the players that he can get. It's not about stars first. It should be character and cultural fit first every time. It's not even about playing with low tempo or high tempo, high flyers or gravity bound recruits. You recruit to your culture, and then coach the hell out of them. I think Rich Pitino will get more time if his team plays into the NCAA and wins a game or two. Hope to beat you guys this week. After that, Good luck.

I think, for most programs, you recruit who you can reasonably get.

There has been a lot of talk on this thread about only recruiting high character kids. See how that plays out with great bb players who may have some character issues.

Pitino - or any coach - is going to recruit them regardless, in all but the most extreme cases. And if he or any coach didnt, GH and the fans would be really tearing him up.
 

The words "if" and "could" allow for any scenario. Tough breaks happen for any tenured coach. Bad things happen to everyone. Gophs need a solid recruiting class filled out to ensure we are not thin benched and continually dogged by single player foul trouble, sprained ankles or similar bad luck. I think there is much riding on this open class...somewhat of a crystal ball into the future for sure.
 

I'll go back to what I posted earlier in this thread or in another: if people are OK with being the little engine who could and pretend that this is the best we can do, then who am I to say different. I know we can do better, however, and so far both Smith and Monson did better - at least in terms of conference record and postseason appearances - so there's recent evidence that we can indeed do better. At this point, all people have to recommend staying the course with Richard is hope that he's slowing figuring something out and that the program is about to turn some sort of corner - perhaps the "crazy corner" that Jim Wacker referred to. One way or another, only two postseason appearances in 5 years shouldn't be considered good enough for a Big Ten team, injuries or no injuries.

Here's the problem: community perception is solidifying like cement that he's not up to this, and that affects recruiting, especially locally. If I with my optimism and maroon-colored glasses am not sure that this is the place I'd want to send my hypothetical Division 1 prospect son because I'm doubtful that he'd get coached up to the best of his potential, you can bet that there are many other parents of D1 prospects who are feeling the same way. As much as I wish we'd signed McKinley Wright, I seriously doubt whether he'd have emerged and developed here to the extent that he has at Colorado. Part of me wonders whether he'd be as inconsistent and in and out of the doghouse as Washington has been. Hey, I'm probably wrong about that, but the point stands: if I doubt, then sure as sh!t the Hurts and others are seriously doubting.
 
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Bet Tubby wishes he could throw away his worst year here. If you are going to do it for Pitino, you should also do it for anyone we compare him to.

Tubby
8-10
9-9
9-9
6-12
6-12
8-10

Pretty exciting eh?

He had bad luck with the Mbakwe year- no doubt and also with Royce White. That's what a 2 million plus coach who has a Hall of Fame resume did here. So we hired a 30 year old for half the price and expected him to blow the HOF coach's record away? No. We hired the 30 year old because we were going for a program that would improve in the long run. I think we are on the edge of that, but it is reasonable to say otherwise.
 

Bet Tubby wishes he could throw away his worst year here. If you are going to do it for Pitino, you should also do it for anyone we compare him to.

I cut Tubby a break for the Nolen suspension year where Hoffarber had to play point and for the "Can't get Royce on the court" year. Although maybe he could have managed Royce better. Also, don't forget the Mbawkwe biatch slap accusations.

Funny, I think the free passes for off-court stuff kind of goes away due to the sheer number and relative consistency of them occurring.
 

I'll go back to what I posted earlier in this thread or in another: if people are OK with being the little engine who could and pretend that this is the best we can do, then who am I to say different. I know we can do better, however, and so far both Smith and Monson did better - at least in terms of conference record and postseason appearances - so there's recent evidence that we can indeed do better. At this point, all people have to recommend staying the course with Richard is hope that he's slowing figuring something out and that the program is about to turn some sort of corner - perhaps the "crazy corner" that Jim Wacker referred to. One way or another, only two postseason appearances in 5 years shouldn't be considered good enough for a Big Ten team, injuries or no injuries.

Here's the problem: community perception is solidifying like cement that he's not up to this, and that affects recruiting, especially locally. If I with my optimism and maroon-colored glasses am not sure that this is the place I'd want to send my hypothetical Division 1 prospect son because I'm doubtful that he'd get coached up to the best of his potential, you can bet that there are many other parents of D1 prospects who are feeling the same way. As much as I wish we'd signed McKinley Wright, I seriously doubt whether he'd have emerged and developed here to the extent that he has at Colorado. Part of me wonders whether he'd be as inconsistent and in and out of the doghouse as Washington has been. Hey, I'm probably wrong about that, but the point stands: if I doubt, then sure as sh!t the Hurts and others are seriously doubting.

Even builtbadgers the coaching and program development expert here on the GH says that Pitino has had a solid record for developing players, so I don't know why you would say that McKinley right wouldn't have developed here.

Also- not one person here is satisfied with what Pitino has accomplished so far. I'm not. I think the camp that says let's see what happens the rest of the year is simply saying that Pitino can still get us where we want to be. That's my stance.

Let's say he had gotten lucky last year and no one got hurt and Lynch didn't get run off on a two year old accusation....and we went 12-6 or even 11-7. Would we be having this conversation at all?
 

If we had gone 12-6 last year, we would be bending the chicken wire to erect Pitino's statue.
 


If we had gone 12-6 last year, we would be bending the chicken wire to erect Pitino's statue.

Exactly right. Now people can't figure out why he hasn't been fired yet.

I would caution this about chicken wire though- if we have learned anything it's that no chicken wire should be purchased for statue building until at least a couple of years have passed since the feat the award is for. One never knows when the records can be expunged and the program slapped upside the head, perhaps as a sacrificial lamb for North Carolina's sins.
 

Tubby
8-10
9-9
9-9
6-12
6-12
8-10

Pretty exciting eh?

He had bad luck with the Mbakwe year- no doubt and also with Royce White. That's what a 2 million plus coach who has a Hall of Fame resume did here. So we hired a 30 year old for half the price and expected him to blow the HOF coach's record away? No. We hired the 30 year old because we were going for a program that would improve in the long run. I think we are on the edge of that, but it is reasonable to say otherwise.

Was Pitino "half price"? Everything I see is that Tubby's "extension" in 2012 got him to $2mil per year, and Pitino's first contract was for $1.6.
 

I'll go back to what I posted earlier in this thread or in another: if people are OK with being the little engine who could and pretend that this is the best we can do, then who am I to say different. I know we can do better, however, and so far both Smith and Monson did better - at least in terms of conference record and postseason appearances - so there's recent evidence that we can indeed do better. At this point, all people have to recommend staying the course with Richard is hope that he's slowing figuring something out and that the program is about to turn some sort of corner - perhaps the "crazy corner" that Jim Wacker referred to. One way or another, only two postseason appearances in 5 years shouldn't be considered good enough for a Big Ten team, injuries or no injuries.

Here's the problem: community perception is solidifying like cement that he's not up to this, and that affects recruiting, especially locally. If I with my optimism and maroon-colored glasses am not sure that this is the place I'd want to send my hypothetical Division 1 prospect son because I'm doubtful that he'd get coached up to the best of his potential, you can bet that there are many other parents of D1 prospects who are feeling the same way. As much as I wish we'd signed McKinley Wright, I seriously doubt whether he'd have emerged and developed here to the extent that he has at Colorado. Part of me wonders whether he'd be as inconsistent and in and out of the doghouse as Washington has been. Hey, I'm probably wrong about that, but the point stands: if I doubt, then sure as sh!t the Hurts and others are seriously doubting.

Correct, we could've/should've done better. There is a reason no one with a better resume than Richard wanted this job 6 years ago as well and we have to continue to make this an enviable place to be. Richard and Coyle have done as much with that at least, but I still don't think you are getting a high end guy yet.

The idea that Richard doesn't develop guys is outrageous though and has no effect on the local recruits. They would like to see other NBA kids go there and would like to see them win more. They'd also be a little more apt'd to enjoy the barn more if the atmosphere were better. You are not wrong about Wright being able to flourish in Colorado though. He had no pressure to do anything well. It's also not like Wright is setting the whole world on fire. Colorado is also garbage, ranked at the bottom of a god awful conference and he's averaging 12 pts, but he shoots 30% from 3 and has 1.5 A/TO rating. IW came into a situation where you had to learn a role and had to play under Nate Mason. Different environments and therefore different results. However Richard has done pretty well at developing other guys imo. Amir, Jordan, Reggie, Nate Mason, Dupree, and many others have improved while being here and I don't think were held back.

The Hurts are and have only been looking out for their brand, which is well within their right. The fact that the D1 AAU program has not sent any kids to the U besides Matthew is alarming, but that isn't a Richard problem. They weren't sending them to Tubby either back when they were Pump and Run.
 


I cut Tubby a break for the Nolen suspension year where Hoffarber had to play point and for the "Can't get Royce on the court" year. Although maybe he could have managed Royce better. Also, don't forget the Mbawkwe biatch slap accusations.

Funny, I think the free passes for off-court stuff kind of goes away due to the sheer number and relative consistency of them occurring.

I was still a 75% Tubby supporter when he was fired.... but I still think Pitino will be better here than Tubby ever was.

heck, if Dan Monson can recruit Humpreys ….
 

I was still a 75% Tubby supporter when he was fired.... but I still think Pitino will be better here than Tubby ever was.

heck, if Dan Monson can recruit Humpreys ….

the story I heard was Kris wanted to go to Duke, Duke's players told Coach K "no way" after Kris' official visit. Then it became who Kris' dad could bully the most. Monson was it
 

If we had gone 12-6 last year, we would be bending the chicken wire to erect Pitino's statue.

There is that big IF again. 12-6 gets a statue here, that is one of the problems. No conference title or anything. Amazing.
 

Correct, we could've/should've done better. There is a reason no one with a better resume than Richard wanted this job 6 years ago as well and we have to continue to make this an enviable place to be. Richard and Coyle have done as much with that at least, but I still don't think you are getting a high end guy yet.

The idea that Richard doesn't develop guys is outrageous though and has no effect on the local recruits. They would like to see other NBA kids go there and would like to see them win more. They'd also be a little more apt'd to enjoy the barn more if the atmosphere were better. You are not wrong about Wright being able to flourish in Colorado though. He had no pressure to do anything well. It's also not like Wright is setting the whole world on fire. Colorado is also garbage, ranked at the bottom of a god awful conference and he's averaging 12 pts, but he shoots 30% from 3 and has 1.5 A/TO rating. IW came into a situation where you had to learn a role and had to play under Nate Mason. Different environments and therefore different results. However Richard has done pretty well at developing other guys imo. Amir, Jordan, Reggie, Nate Mason, Dupree, and many others have improved while being here and I don't think were held back.

The Hurts are and have only been looking out for their brand, which is well within their right. The fact that the D1 AAU program has not sent any kids to the U besides Matthew is alarming, but that isn't a Richard problem. They weren't sending them to Tubby either back when they were Pump and Run.

They never went after the guys that were better coaches than Richard that they could have had because they did think they were better and did not know who to talk to.
 

I was still a 75% Tubby supporter when he was fired.... but I still think Pitino will be better here than Tubby ever was.

heck, if Dan Monson can recruit Humpreys ….

Recruiting has a lot to do with how I view the state of the program. We're going to miss out on Hurt. Whatever, it sucks, but I'll live with that. However, if no less than three of Dainja, Suggs, Garcia, Holmgren, Walton and Carlson are wearing Minnesota uniforms, I will be beyond ready to get rid of Pitino. If only one or two come, that's a bad sign. Part of a successful program is getting local kids to be excited about gophers basketball and wanting to play for the hometown BIG team.

I understand not all will want to play in Minneapolis-some want to get away from family and Zeke Njaji wanted to play somewhere warm; I get that. But look at the number of Indiana kids on Indiana and the number of Michigan kids playing for Michigan State.
 

They never went after the guys that were better coaches than Richard that they could have had because they did think they were better and did not know who to talk to.
You dont know that

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