Sneak Preview of Smith/Pitino Comparison through 6 Seasons

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SelectionSunday said:
I am neither worshiping Tubby or Pitino. Did not offer an opinion on the numbers, only presented them.

And yes, no matter how this season turms out, I will update this in March to continue the comparison. Not sure why you’re offended by it.
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This tends to happen these days when people don't like what statistics are telling them.

Blame the messenger. Claim they are biased, or trying to prove a point. Pretty standard.
 

alchemy2u said:
Maybe I am just getting sick of so many threads bashing our coach.
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I marvel at the people who log on to a conversation forum and go on and on about how they're sick and tired of reading conversations.
 

alchemy2u said:
I was just wondering why, did you do the same for Monson, Dutcher, Clem...etc...? Maybe I am just getting sick of so many threads bashing our coach.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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As a matter of fact, yes I have included Monson (and Molinari) in prior, similar comparisons on this message board. Have not gone as far back as Dutch and Clem.

Enlighten me, where in my initial post (and any since in this thread) did I bash Richard, or Tubby for that matter?
 

Not super happy with how the last couple of years of Eric Mussleman have gone... Sure he took over a mediocre team from Pitino, and lost a couple of players/commitments, then had a couple of rebuilding years, of course then the year where we had some injury problems, and to his credit he did have that one good year.

Yes, I do see that we are now starting to keep some players home and he is becoming a household name. A likable guy that is connecting with the up and coming high schoolers and keeping more and more instate. It does seem like it is starting to feel like the the "off" clem years where we have all the good instate talent but a couple of the players are not mature enough for a big run in the tourney. This year is actually not looking too bad. I don't know... we need to demand consistency and greatness here and his numbers are not looking any better than the last two guys if you track the last 5.5 years.

I think we need to start completely over with a new face in town. THAT - will ensure that we have immediate success. I'm sure a new guy will fix everything. We should try to get a reject from Kentucky or somewhere. Some big name that will solve everything.

Too soon?
 
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CPTMidnight said:
Not super happy with how the last couple of years of Eric Mussleman have gone... Sure he took over a mediocre team from Pitino, and lost a couple of players/commitments, then had a couple of rebuilding years, of course then the year where we had some injury problems, and to his credit he did have that one good year.

Yes, I do see that we are now starting to keep some players home and he is becoming a household name. A likable guy that is connecting with the up and coming high schoolers and keeping more and more instate. It does seem like it is starting to feel like the the "off" clem years where we have all the good instate talent but a couple of the players are not mature enough for a big run in the tourney. This year is actually not looking too bad. I don't know... we need to demand consistency and greatness here and his numbers are not looking any better than the last two guys if you track the last 5.5 years.

I think we need to start completely over with a new face in town. THAT - will ensure that we have immediate success. I'm sure a new guy will fix everything. We should try to get a reject from Kentucky or somewhere. Some big name that will solve everything.

Too soon?
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Let me get this straight: you're fantasizing about a future coach not meeting expectations so that Richard looks good by comparison? That's two levels more screwed up than anyone who might be rooting for Pitino to fail.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Let me get this straight: you're fantasizing about a future coach not meeting expectations so that Richard looks good by comparison? That's two levels more screwed up than anyone who might be rooting for Pitino to fail.
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Cmon guys, I'm trying really hard to be like you. I thought you would be pretty excited about jumping out ahead of the next coach. I guess its a miss...
 
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Monson & Molinari, per request

For those wanting and/or wondering about Monson (7+) and Molinari (partial) years compared to Tubby/Richard, here are their numbers sprinkled in.

Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers
Smith -- 29-53 (35.4%)
Pitino -- 20-45 (30.8%)
Monson -- 21-63 (25%)
Molinari -- 1-9 (10%)

Home Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers
Monson -- 21-19 (52.5%)
Smith -- 16-20 (44.4%)
Pitino -- 10-16 (38.5%)
Molinari -- 1-3 (25%)

Road Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers
Pitino -- 6-20 (23.1%)
Smith -- 4-24 (14.3%)
Molinari -- 0-6 (0%)
Monson -- 0-33 (0%)

Neutral-Site Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers
Smith -- 9-9 (50%)
Pitino -- 4-9 (30.8%)
Molinari -- 0-0 (0%)
Monson -- 0-11 (0%)

Combined Road/Neutral Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers
Smith -- 13-33 (28.3%)
Pitino -- 10-29 (25.6%)
Molinari -- 0-6 (0%)
Monson -- 0-44 (0%)

Regular Season Record vs. Big Ten Opponents
Smith -- 46-62 (42.6%)
Monson -- 44-68, (39.3%)
Pitino -- 31-59 (34.4%)
Molinari -- 3-13 (18.8%)

Big Ten Tournament Record
Smith -- 7-6 (53.8%)
Pitino -- 3-5 (37.5%)
Monson -- 4-7 (36.4%)
Molinari -- 0-1 (0%)

Semifinals or Better Big Ten Tournament Appearances
Smith (2) -- 2008 semifinals, 2010 championship game
Monson (1) -- 2005 semifinals
Pitino (1) -- 2017 semifinals
Molinari (0)

NCAA Tournament Appearances/Record
Smith -- 3/1-3 (25%)
Monson -- 1/0-1 (0%)
Pitino -- 1/0-1 (0%)
Molinari -- 0/0-0 (0%)
 

SelectionSunday said:
As a matter of fact, yes I have included Monson (and Molinari) in prior, similar comparisons on this message board. Have not gone as far back as Dutch and Clem.

Enlighten me, where in my initial post (and any since in this thread) did I bash Richard, or Tubby for that matter?
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Thanks for the post. You did not bash any coach in the thread. Hyper sensitive fans take any observation, even facts as a assault on Pitino. Then they pitch excuses and learning curves, how hard the job is. I presented examples of how quickly other coaches established a identity and culture in their program and have sustainable high success. Here, the accepted success has always been .500 or so. Every single one has done it with defense and no one has done it without.
 



bleedsmaroonandgold said:
The trendline was heading downward, even though his last season was his best postseason result at the U? When is the next time our trendline will be down enough to only be in the round of 32?
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So...if Pitino goes 10-10 in the Big Ten this year and then he wins a first round game in the NCAAs after squeaking in to the tourney will be a great coach? I don't think so. You have to look at the whole picture. Tubby was looking and talking tired- he showed no enthusiasm. He got on the radio and mumbled and we were hearing that he was driving the players crazy.
But the clincher was this:

His last two recruited classes were......

Ellenson
Buggs

Foster
Ellis

Tubby was a hall of fame coach- he knew how to coach. Period. But he was out of gas here. I plan to support Pitino through the end of this year and hopefully well beyond. I am thrilled with him as a spokesman for this program. He needs better results. His record this year is likely to make it obvious what has to happen. The grey area is probably 9-11 in the Big Ten. Less than that and he is gone. Better than that and he goes to the tourney and remains.
 

bga1 said:
So...if Pitino goes 10-10 in the Big Ten this year and then he wins a first round game in the NCAAs after squeaking in to the tourney will be a great coach? I don't think so. You have to look at the whole picture. Tubby was looking and talking tired- he showed no enthusiasm. He got on the radio and mumbled and we were hearing that he was driving the players crazy.
But the clincher was this:

His last two recruited classes were......

Ellenson
Buggs

Foster
Ellis

Tubby was a hall of fame coach- he knew how to coach. Period. But he was out of gas here. I plan to support Pitino through the end of this year and hopefully well beyond. I am thrilled with him as a spokesman for this program. He needs better results. His record this year is likely to make it obvious what has to happen. The grey area is probably 9-11 in the Big Ten. Less than that and he is gone. Better than that and he goes to the tourney and remains.
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The scenario you present wouldn't mean Pitino is a great coach, but it would mean that he is not trending downward, which is what i was responding to.
 

bga1 said:
So...if Pitino goes 10-10 in the Big Ten this year and then he wins a first round game in the NCAAs after squeaking in to the tourney will be a great coach? I don't think so. You have to look at the whole picture. Tubby was looking and talking tired- he showed no enthusiasm. He got on the radio and mumbled and we were hearing that he was driving the players crazy.
But the clincher was this:

His last two recruited classes were......

Ellenson
Buggs

Foster
Ellis

Tubby was a hall of fame coach- he knew how to coach. Period. But he was out of gas here. I plan to support Pitino through the end of this year and hopefully well beyond. I am thrilled with him as a spokesman for this program. He needs better results. His record this year is likely to make it obvious what has to happen. The grey area is probably 9-11 in the Big Ten. Less than that and he is gone. Better than that and he goes to the tourney and remains.
Click to expand...

I don't know why this part is so hard for people to understand. The ship was sinking similar to the football team. Tubby's last year was going to be the best chance we had for awhile, just like football with Kill/Claeys.
Going back to Bleeds post earlier, when the Royce and Trevor deal didn't pan out, I feel like Tubby began to lose interest in the University because of a lack of support. One of the great what ifs for MN basketball is what would've happened had they all played together. Tubby may still be here. Also would Hoibergs tenure been as successful at ISU?
 

bga1 said:
So...if Pitino goes 10-10 in the Big Ten this year and then he wins a first round game in the NCAAs after squeaking in to the tourney will be a great coach? I don't think so. You have to look at the whole picture. Tubby was looking and talking tired- he showed no enthusiasm. He got on the radio and mumbled and we were hearing that he was driving the players crazy.
But the clincher was this:

His last two recruited classes were......

Ellenson
Buggs

Foster
Ellis

Tubby was a hall of fame coach- he knew how to coach. Period. But he was out of gas here. I plan to support Pitino through the end of this year and hopefully well beyond. I am thrilled with him as a spokesman for this program. He needs better results. His record this year is likely to make it obvious what has to happen. The grey area is probably 9-11 in the Big Ten. Less than that and he is gone. Better than that and he goes to the tourney and remains.
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In addition Tubby's coaching style was better suited for the GenX'rs/boomers and not the Millenials/GenZ. The profanity lace tirades do not play well with the current crop of recruits. There are very few of the Bobby Knight, Jim Calhoun types left and the ones that are still around made the transition or never needed to be a screamer in the first place.

The decision on any current or future coach does not revolve around the past (although that is all we have to go on) it revolveds around the future. Is the trend up and can this coach take us to where we want to go? If Pitino ends up with a good year the overall trend will be up, recruiting will pick up, he is likable and is our best shot at improving the program. If not he will be gone. If it is somewhere in the middle everyone here will freak out and Coyle will ignore us and make his own decision.
 




bga1 said:
So...if Pitino goes 10-10 in the Big Ten this year and then he wins a first round game in the NCAAs after squeaking in to the tourney will be a great coach? I don't think so. You have to look at the whole picture. Tubby was looking and talking tired- he showed no enthusiasm. He got on the radio and mumbled and we were hearing that he was driving the players crazy.
But the clincher was this:

His last two recruited classes were......

Ellenson
Buggs

Foster
Ellis

Tubby was a hall of fame coach- he knew how to coach. Period. But he was out of gas here. I plan to support Pitino through the end of this year and hopefully well beyond. I am thrilled with him as a spokesman for this program. He needs better results. His record this year is likely to make it obvious what has to happen. The grey area is probably 9-11 in the Big Ten. Less than that and he is gone. Better than that and he goes to the tourney and remains.
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The bolded is a fantastic example of a straw man argument. He never said it made Tubby a great coach. He said it meant the trend line wasn't going downward. Which is true. It's ridiculous to say that a program that just won their first NCAA tournament game in a long time is trending downward.

The same would be true for Richard. If we get to the tournament this season and win a game then the trend line is going up. It's undeniable. Just like it was for Tubby.

The part about recruiting falling off is 100% valid. Though I'm personally not a fan of firing a coach based on third-party rankings of 17-18 year olds, but that's just me.

The idea that Tubby stopped caring or was tired or however you want to put it is just odd to me. That feels like people are looking for reasons that aren't really measurable to justify getting rid of him. I have no idea if Tubby was getting lazy or not. Most of us don't, because we weren't there day to day.
 

bizzle22 said:
It's ridiculous to say that a program that just won their first NCAA tournament game in a long time is trending downward.
.
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I disagree with this. An uptick at the end doesn't negate the overall trend of a line. Back in the day, I was dating a girl and the relationship was slowly deteriorating over a long period of time. We had one final date, and it was fantastic. We still broke up the next day. That uptick didn't change the overall trend line.
 

It was 100 % time for Tubby to go. The hiring was bungled and they got a way down the list choice. He is fighting hard to make it happen and it needs to happen now. The conference has been way down and now it is on the way back up with those tremendous hires at OSU and IU. No excuses, time to win something special like the conference and then string together 4-5 years of at least 12 conference wins. That shows your great and that is what your paid to do.
 

manderson1984 said:
I don't know why this part is so hard for people to understand. The ship was sinking similar to the football team. Tubby's last year was going to be the best chance we had for awhile, just like football with Kill/Claeys.
Going back to Bleeds post earlier, when the Royce and Trevor deal didn't pan out, I feel like Tubby began to lose interest in the University because of a lack of support. One of the great what ifs for MN basketball is what would've happened had they all played together. Tubby may still be here. Also would Hoibergs tenure been as successful at ISU?
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I don't know why this part is so hard for people to understand. Posters (who cannot see into the future, as far as I can tell) pretend that their negative, speculative beliefs are factual. I say that basketball and football were only going to continue to get better with Smith and Claeys at the helm. Prove me wrong.
 

For the record, here's where I stood/stand

Don't think I owe anyone an explanation for starting this thread (like I said, I used comparative numbers, with no offering of opinion on said numbers), but to set the record straight here's how I've felt about our last three coaches (excluding interim Coach Mo). Can't say it with 100% certainty -- it was quite awhile ago as it pertains to Monson & Tubby -- but I feel pretty comfortable saying I expressed these opinions in this forum.

Cliff notes version, to spare all of you some time. ...

Monson: At the end (certainly last couple seasons) I was more than ready to see Monson go, and expressed that here. I had had enough of underachieving teams spanning several seasons (Rickert, Rychart, Bennett, Holman, Grier (2nd year), Hargrow, etc., but most notably I couldn't stomach the program's maddening ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory time after time after time. And The Barn became a flat-out mausoleum.

Tubby: I liked Tubby, truly appreciate (and always will) what he did for this program, did not call for his firing, but I understood it when it happened. I was neither outraged or gleeful when Teague let him go. Teague turned out to be Bozo, we all know that, but I understand the deal when a new AD comes in, eventually they want to make their own "splash" hires in their major programs. That was the case with Teague. I had some of the same frustrations about Tubby as a lot of you did, but not to the point where I thought, "We have to fire him."

Pitino: This one's easy. I haven't call for his firing (though I have expressed an affinity for Niko Medved), and see some things I really like. Contrary to what posters like alchemy2u think, if I'm a Pitino basher I'd like to know what he calls the trolls who show up only after Gopher losses and spread their sunshine. Truthfully, I'm not even on the board that much anymore, comparatively, and I'm certainly not here tearing Richard a new one.

In fact, prior to the season, while others were saying "Pitino has to go if we don't get to the NCAA Tournament", I said I didn't think it was that cut & dried. Need to see how the season goes, how the Gophers get to whatever record they end up with, how they finish, is program showing signs of real progress on and off the court, etc.?

That's my ramble for the day. ... try not to take it personally or get all uptight when I post stats. I've done that for many, many, many years, and will continue to do so. I've always loved numbers. ... if you haven't figured that out by now, you're not paying attention!

Let's roll! Let's get EC back, get him back to relative good health, then go beat the Badgers in Madison. It can be done, but Gophers will have to match Badgers' toughness with toughness of their own. A win in Kohl could really get some positive momentum going.
 
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dpodoll68 said:
I don't know why this part is so hard for people to understand. Posters (who cannot see into the future, as far as I can tell) pretend that their negative, speculative beliefs are factual. I say that basketball and football were only going to continue to get better with Smith and Claeys at the helm. Prove me wrong.
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Fair enough to point out these are hypothetical and anything could've of happened. I am going off my opinion and what I know/think to be true. Tubby's last two recruiting classes were awful and the one before that basically only produced Andre Hollins, I think that was proven by those college careers were like (Coleman, Ellis, Foster, Ellenson, and Buggs). It was well known that the AAU and HS coaches were annoyed with Tubby and were not supportive of sending kids to the U so local recruiting was going to be a disaster (Yes significantly larger than what most people feel we have now). My football mention was a little more speculative, but they were going to be young two years ago after a 9 win team. They had no qualified QB's on the roster and a tougher schedule, so most media outlets would've predicted a drop, but again I won't win an argument because it's speculative. So feel free to disregard or ignore or come back with loads of data that could prove your argument right.
 

dpodoll68 said:
I don't know why this part is so hard for people to understand. Posters (who cannot see into the future, as far as I can tell) pretend that their negative, speculative beliefs are factual. I say that basketball and football were only going to continue to get better with Smith and Claeys at the helm. Prove me wrong.
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Can not prove you wrong but do think that with Fleck you got a larger upside coach. With Smith he had really slowed down on the recruiting front, less enthusiasm for it and do not blame him. The crime could be on Teague for thinking he could land someone really great but that was not lined up. Now we have a guy who has done a very poor job but at this moment has a team that i think should do very well this year. Best part is we get to find out. I just wish that in year 6 fans would quit thinking that around .500 is really good.
 

SelectionSunday said:
Don't think I owe anyone an explanation for starting this thread (like I said, I used comparative numbers, with no offering of opinion on said numbers), but to set the record straight here's how I've felt about our last three coaches (excluding interim Coach Mo). Can't say it with 100% certainty -- it was quite awhile ago as it pertains to Monson & Tubby -- but I feel pretty comfortable saying I expressed these opinions in this forum.

Cliff notes version, to spare all of you some time. ...

Monson: At the end (certainly last couple seasons) I was more than ready to see Monson go, and expressed that here. I had had enough of underachieving teams spanning several seasons (Rickert, Rychart, Bennett, Holman, Grier (2nd year), Hargrow, etc., but most notably I couldn't stomach the program's maddening ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory time after time after time. And The Barn became a flat-out mausoleum.

Tubby: I liked Tubby, truly appreciate (and always will) what he did for this program, did not call for his firing, but I understood it when it happened. I was neither outraged or gleeful when Teague let him go. Teague turned out to be Bozo, we all know that, but I understand the deal when a new AD comes in, eventually they want to make their own "splash" hires in their major programs. That was the case with Teague. I had some of the same frustrations about Tubby as a lot of you did, but not to the point where I thought, "We have to fire him."

Pitino: This one's easy. I haven't call for his firing (though I have expressed an affinity for Niko Medved), and see some things I really like. Contrary to what posters like alchemy2u think, if I'm a Pitino basher I'd like to know what he calls the trolls who show up only after Gopher losses and spread their sunshine. Truthfully, I'm not even on the board that much anymore, comparatively, and I'm certainly not here tearing Richard a new one.

In fact, prior to the season, while others were saying "Pitino has to go if we don't get to the NCAA Tournament", I said I didn't think it was that cut & dried. Need to see how the season goes, how the Gophers get to whatever record they end up with, how they finish, is program showing signs of real progress on and off the court, etc.?

That's my ramble for the day. ... try not to take it personally or get all uptight when I post stats. I've done that for many, many, many years, and will continue to do so. I've always loved numbers. ... if you haven't figured that out by now, you're not paying attention!
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I appreciate the data/comparison you brought up. Thanks for taking the time and adding Monson to it as well.
 


builtbadgers said:
Can not prove you wrong but do think that with Fleck you got a larger upside coach. With Smith he had really slowed down on the recruiting front, less enthusiasm for it and do not blame him. The crime could be on Teague for thinking he could land someone really great but that was not lined up. Now we have a guy who has done a very poor job but at this moment has a team that i think should do very well this year. Best part is we get to find out. I just wish that in year 6 fans would quit thinking that around .500 is really good.
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Good post. Fleck and Pitino show more potential than Claeys and Smith did. Long term we do not want to be happy with .500 basketball or football. We have been doing both for the better part of 50 years with only brief rays of light- followed by darkness. I like the idea of sticking with a couple of enthusiastic young guys and seeing if we can build with them long term.
 

bizzle22 said:
The bolded is a fantastic example of a straw man argument. He never said it made Tubby a great coach. He said it meant the trend line wasn't going downward. Which is true. It's ridiculous to say that a program that just won their first NCAA tournament game in a long time is trending downward.

The same would be true for Richard. If we get to the tournament this season and win a game then the trend line is going up. It's undeniable. Just like it was for Tubby.

The part about recruiting falling off is 100% valid. Though I'm personally not a fan of firing a coach based on third-party rankings of 17-18 year olds, but that's just me.

The idea that Tubby stopped caring or was tired or however you want to put it is just odd to me. That feels like people are looking for reasons that aren't really measurable to justify getting rid of him. I have no idea if Tubby was getting lazy or not. Most of us don't, because we weren't there day to day.
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I remain amused that I now seem to be painted as some bitter Tubby fan who will always hate Pitino because of my longing for Tubby. I like Pitino's personality more than Tubby's, so given equal results, Pitino would definitely be my favorite of the two, but as the data shows, results have not been equal.

I was ready to fire Tubby after year 5, and got in plenty of arguments with dpod who thought I was too harsh on Tubby. I continued to voice frustration with many of Tubbys issues in year 6, but did not support his firing because on court results speak louder to me, and we just made the round of 32.
 

MennoSota said:
What I get from this is that it is extremely difficult to win at UMN. Minnesota is a middle to lower tier B1G University in basketball. Rarely does UMN climb out of that level.
This comparison is just depressing.
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Silly point. The court is the same in Williams arena as it is in Cameron. A good coach creates a good "basketball school". There is no magic. Many programs pivot up or down dramatically based on the coach. Minus the fact that there are certainly coaches willing to ignore rules and an NCAA that is willing to turn a blind eye to certain programs, basketball is basketball. Sell your programs strengths. Sell your vision. Sell yourself. Sell it to the administration. Sell it to the kids. Sell it to parents. Sell it to assistant coaches. Sell it to the fans. Properly manage your roster. Recruit character first. Recruit competitors. Recruit to your coaching style. Assign roles and have clear expectations for everyone. Develop an identity. Have fun. Listen. Adjust. Develop players. Build. Deliver on your vision. Nothing is easy, but in the realm of possible, anything is possible.

If you are willing to adjust, who you are is not who you are going to be. MN hired a young coach who should have already gained valuable lessons. Some people never learn, some are always learning. We are kind of approaching crunch time relative to coaching duration. The hope should be that learned lessons are being applied, but tough to tell for sure.

The one thing I do know is you never make excuses when you are winning. When you are losing there is always the refs, the program, the NCAA, the schedule, the fan base, the writers, etc...This is a highly compensated role and with it comes high expectations. Let's hope for the best for this coach and the hard-working kids he recruited.
 

benlaur said:
Silly point. The court is the same in Williams arena as it is in Cameron. A good coach creates a good "basketball school". There is no magic. Many programs pivot up or down dramatically based on the coach. Minus the fact that there are certainly coaches willing to ignore rules and an NCAA that is willing to turn a blind eye to certain programs, basketball is basketball. Sell your programs strengths. Sell your vision. Sell yourself. Sell it to the administration. Sell it to the kids. Sell it to parents. Sell it to assistant coaches. Sell it to the fans. Properly manage your roster. Recruit character first. Recruit competitors. Recruit to your coaching style. Assign roles and have clear expectations for everyone. Develop an identity. Have fun. Listen. Adjust. Develop players. Build. Deliver on your vision. Nothing is easy, but in the realm of possible, anything is possible.

If you are willing to adjust, who you are is not who you are going to be. MN hired a young coach who should have already gained valuable lessons. Some people never learn, some are always learning. We are kind of approaching crunch time relative to coaching duration. The hope should be that learned lessons are being applied, but tough to tell for sure.

The one thing I do know is you never make excuses when you are winning. When you are losing there is always the refs, the program, the NCAA, the schedule, the fan base, the writers, etc...This is a highly compensated role and with it comes high expectations. Let's hope for the best for this coach and the hard-working kids he recruited.
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Bravo.

Thank you.
 

SelectionSunday said:
Don't think I owe anyone an explanation for starting this thread (like I said, I used comparative numbers, with no offering of opinion on said numbers), but to set the record straight here's how I've felt about our last three coaches (excluding interim Coach Mo). Can't say it with 100% certainty -- it was quite awhile ago as it pertains to Monson & Tubby -- but I feel pretty comfortable saying I expressed these opinions in this forum.

Cliff notes version, to spare all of you some time. ...

Monson: At the end (certainly last couple seasons) I was more than ready to see Monson go, and expressed that here. I had had enough of underachieving teams spanning several seasons (Rickert, Rychart, Bennett, Holman, Grier (2nd year), Hargrow, etc., but most notably I couldn't stomach the program's maddening ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory time after time after time. And The Barn became a flat-out mausoleum.

Tubby: I liked Tubby, truly appreciate (and always will) what he did for this program, did not call for his firing, but I understood it when it happened. I was neither outraged or gleeful when Teague let him go. Teague turned out to be Bozo, we all know that, but I understand the deal when a new AD comes in, eventually they want to make their own "splash" hires in their major programs. That was the case with Teague. I had some of the same frustrations about Tubby as a lot of you did, but not to the point where I thought, "We have to fire him."

Pitino: This one's easy. I haven't call for his firing (though I have expressed an affinity for Niko Medved), and see some things I really like. Contrary to what posters like alchemy2u think, if I'm a Pitino basher I'd like to know what he calls the trolls who show up only after Gopher losses and spread their sunshine. Truthfully, I'm not even on the board that much anymore, comparatively, and I'm certainly not here tearing Richard a new one.

In fact, prior to the season, while others were saying "Pitino has to go if we don't get to the NCAA Tournament", I said I didn't think it was that cut & dried. Need to see how the season goes, how the Gophers get to whatever record they end up with, how they finish, is program showing signs of real progress on and off the court, etc.?

That's my ramble for the day. ... try not to take it personally or get all uptight when I post stats. I've done that for many, many, many years, and will continue to do so. I've always loved numbers. ... if you haven't figured that out by now, you're not paying attention!

Let's roll! Let's get EC back, get him back to relative good health, then go beat the Badgers in Madison. It can be done, but Gophers will have to match Badgers' toughness with toughness of their own. A win in Kohl could really get some positive momentum going.
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Excellent post and I agree with most of what you said. I apologize for lumping you in with the Pitino bashes and sorry that I made you defend yourself.

All of us want the team to succeed and yet are not satisfied with the overall results of the Pitino years. I know this is a message board and everyone is free to discuss what ever they want to talk about. I tend to overreact and take out my frustrations on a specific message when it is really about the cumulation of many discussions.



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manderson1984 said:
Fair enough to point out these are hypothetical and anything could've of happened. I am going off my opinion and what I know/think to be true. Tubby's last two recruiting classes were awful and the one before that basically only produced Andre Hollins, I think that was proven by those college careers were like (Coleman, Ellis, Foster, Ellenson, and Buggs). It was well known that the AAU and HS coaches were annoyed with Tubby and were not supportive of sending kids to the U so local recruiting was going to be a disaster (Yes significantly larger than what most people feel we have now). My football mention was a little more speculative, but they were going to be young two years ago after a 9 win team. They had no qualified QB's on the roster and a tougher schedule, so most media outlets would've predicted a drop, but again I won't win an argument because it's speculative. So feel free to disregard or ignore or come back with loads of data that could prove your argument right.
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Here's what it honestly boils down to for me - in both cases, it was a new AD coming in and making their own hires. I truly think it was that simple. People make up nonsense to try to pretend that both were fired for cause. (Tubby "ran out of gas," "was tired," and "couldn't recruit"; Claeys had "lost control of his team," "isn't cut out to be a head coach," "was always intended to be an interim hire," and "never wanted the job in the first place.") It's all just mythology.

Teague fancied himself a basketball expert and had already hired Shaka Smart at VCU, so he obviously was going to install his own guy as quickly as feasible - particularly since Smith already had 6 years under his belt. He most likely thought (foolishly) that he could get Smart to come here. Kill was already pretty popular, and was only coming off his first season, so of course he didn't have the clout or the cachet to swing that one as well.

And Coyle already had a history of twice hiring his own football coaches at good-to-decent football programs (Bryan Harsin at Boise St., Dino Babers at Syracuse), so he was clearly going to do the same here. Short of something insane like going to the Rose Bowl, Claeys was going to be fired regardless - the "sex" "scandal" provided a timely and convenient cover. Pitino was young and energetic, and only 3 seasons in, so again it wasn't the right time. Depending on how this season turns out, it might end up being the right time.

Further, putting aside the history of the AD position (and the personal history of the ADs themselves), how anyone could look at what has since transpired and still hold to the above fictions is mind-boggling to me. Tubby had "run out of gas" and "didn't care," and yet not one, but TWO ADs at basketball programs at least as good as Minnesota (I would argue better, certainly in the case of Memphis) hired him subsequent to his firing here. Are those ADs just complete morons? Do the esteemed posters of GopherHole know something that two highly compensated Athletic Directors don't know? He left Texas Tech voluntarily, and a team filled with mostly his recruits just finished 2nd in the Big 12 and went to the Elite 8 last year. But people will still say that he can't recruit, and never could.

And Claeys, after taking a year off, led a fantastic defense and almost helped Mike Leach bring Washington St. (of all places) to the Rose Bowl. He may decide that he is happier being a defensive coordinator and never seek a head coaching position again, but he absolutely could if he wanted to.

My opinion is that, despite whatever evidence presents itself, people will cling desperately to the above fictions and try to make something more out of it than it is.
 

alchemy2u said:
Excellent post and I agree with most of what you said. I apologize for lumping you in with the Pitino bashes and sorry that I made you defend yourself.

All of us want the team to succeed and yet are not satisfied with the overall results of the Pitino years. I know this is a message board and everyone is free to discuss what ever they want to talk about. I tend to overreact and take out my frustrations on a specific message when it is really about the cumulation of many discussions.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

No sweat. We all get frustrated.
 

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