Most similar program to Minnesota?

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I started a stub of this idea in another thread, but I think it's worth it's own mostly slow season post. What school, all things considered, is the most similar to Minnesota in football? Preferably outside the Big Ten.

I'm going with Pitt. Public, big city university who shares a market/stadium with an NFL team (I know we have our own stadium now). For most of my life they have been pretty average, but had their big time heyday in the past. Struggles a bit for attendance/visibility in their market, but if they got good people would rally. Georgia Tech is another contender in my eyes, as is Boston College.
 

University of Washington seems like it could be on that list. Similar sized metro area, NFL team, long-term member of a major conference. Pitt and BC are both relative newcomers to their conference.
 


My criteria for a program to be considered similar to ours from a demographic and logistical setup would have to follow some of these guidelines:

-In a P5 conference
-Public university
-Shares the market with an NFL team
-Lacks depth of talent in it's own backyard

Not a ton actually meet that description, to be honest.

BC would except they are a private university.
GT would but they have boatloads more talent in a radius of 30 miles than we do in our entire state.
NW is taken out of this for the same reasons as these first two.
Pitt and Washington come to mind but both are in areas with much more talent that we have.
Rutgers if you want to consider them part of the New York market with the teams there but even they have a lot more talent in their backyard.

I would say Pitt probably the most similar, however, are we willing to consider Boulder part of the Denver market? If so, I'd say Colorado being a P5 public school in an NFL market and while Denver has some talent, not a ton and is then surrounded by a recruiting wasteland.

Obviously there's not a perfect answer as I suppose you could start drilling down more criteria too like being the only D1 school in the state, having a similar history, etc.
 

Arizona State? Technically Tempe, but it’s right next to Phoenix.
 


Vanderbilt if it was public

Edit, JK they have more instate talent than I thought.
 

RatherBeGolfing said:
My criteria for a program to be considered similar to ours from a demographic and logistical setup would have to follow some of these guidelines:

-In a P5 conference
-Public university
-Shares the market with an NFL team
-Lacks depth of talent in it's own backyard

Not a ton actually meet that description, to be honest.

BC would except they are a private university.
GT would but they have boatloads more talent in a radius of 30 miles than we do in our entire state.
NW is taken out of this for the same reasons as these first two.
Pitt and Washington come to mind but both are in areas with much more talent that we have.
Rutgers if you want to consider them part of the New York market with the teams there but even they have a lot more talent in their backyard.

I would say Pitt probably the most similar, however, are we willing to consider Boulder part of the Denver market? If so, I'd say Colorado being a P5 public school in an NFL market and while Denver has some talent, not a ton and is then surrounded by a recruiting wasteland.

Obviously there's not a perfect answer as I suppose you could start drilling down more criteria too like being the only D1 school in the state, having a similar history, etc.
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While we do not have the depth of talent in Minnesota. We have no local in-state competition for the recruits that are here. The nearest FBS schools are:
215 miles - Iowa State
266 miles - Wisconsin
277 miles - Iowa
409 miles - Northwestern
434 miles - Nebraska

For comparison, here is Pitt
76 miles - West Virginia
104 miles - Kent State
112 miles - Akron
136 miles - Penn State
189 miles - Ohio State
205 miles - Ohio
239 miles - Maryland
302 miles - Temple
312 miles - Virginia
Toledo, Bowling Green, Miami, and Cincinnati are all within 400 miles

I think the posters that are saying Colorado and Washington are probably pretty accurate.
 
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I wouldn't have thought of Washington and Colorado as being comparable at first blush, but they sure are. All public universities in big cities with NFL and MLB to compete against, and in mediocre recruiting grounds (if you judge by NFL player birth states).

nfl-players-home-statespng-fb305c4df5b052b3.png
 

RahSkiUMah said:
Arizona State? Technically Tempe, but it’s right next to Phoenix.
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Arizona State, Colorado, and Washington are three that come to mind. I'm not an expert on how good the high school football is in those immediate areas, but I'd guess that it's similar to slightly better. Somebody else can do the research to find out how many NFL players have grown up in each metro area if they want

All three of these schools are in major metropolitan areas similar in size to the Twin Cities with NFL teams, although none is located pretty much right downtown like the U of M is. Arizona St is in Tempe, which would be like putting the U of M in Richfield or Edina. U of Colorado is in Boulder, which would be like putting the U of M in Chanhassen or Chaska. UW is in Seattle, but about 10 minutes or so from downtown.
 



UCLA has a lot of talent in its own state, but I would say they are similar in that they compete with a lot of other sports teams and "culture" for their local fans' attention.
 

For me the absolute closest is Pitt.

- large (quasi-)public school
- (quasi-)flagship school in the state
- very high research focus (especially medical)
- campus is very close to downtown
- medium large metro area, but not huge
- football team has had very high levels of success, but it was several decades ago
- historic NFL team right in the same metro, that has very high levels of fan support


Other than no longer having an on campus stadium, Pitt seems to be an almost perfect match. The other key difference is that they're in a much larger state in terms of population, and that they're not the sole public flagship (or quasi-flagship) with Penn State. But as others noted, there is more population, talent, and nearby competition to offset that.


Another noted that Pitt has bounced around conferences, unlike Minnesota (Big Ten) and Washington (Pac-8/10/12). However, it was common back east for major college football teams to be independent for many years. Pitt, Penn State, Florida St, Miami, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, others ... they were independent for decades. They finally got together under the Big East, something Joe Paterno pushed for a long time, except that Penn State went to the Big Ten instead.
 

Word said:
UCLA has a lot of talent in its own state, but I would say they are similar in that they compete with a lot of other sports teams and "culture" for their local fans' attention.
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You could also put Cal in this category, although in both cases, the metro areas are much larger.
 

Word said:
UCLA has a lot of talent in its own state, but I would say they are similar in that they compete with a lot of other sports teams and "culture" for their local fans' attention.
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You could say that about any college program that's in a major metro area, especially ones with other sports teams and especially ones with an NFL team.
 



I would agree that Colorado and Washington might be the closest. The one thing that differs in those states, is that there are multiple D1 football programs in those states.
Colorado: CU, CSU, Air Force, UNC (FCS program)
Washington: UW, Wazzu, EWU (FCS program)

So even though they are similar states, with one major population center, there are more options for D1 football in those states. (Air Force being a little different situation of course)
 

Gophers_4life said:
For me the absolute closest is Pitt.

- large (quasi-)public school
- (quasi-)flagship school in the state
- very high research focus (especially medical)
- campus is very close to downtown
- medium large metro area, but not huge
- football team has had very high levels of success, but it was several decades ago
- historic NFL team right in the same metro, that has very high levels of fan support


Other than no longer having an on campus stadium, Pitt seems to be an almost perfect match. The other key difference is that they're in a much larger state in terms of population, and that they're not the sole public flagship (or quasi-flagship) with Penn State. But as others noted, there is more population, talent, and nearby competition to offset that.


Another noted that Pitt has bounced around conferences, unlike Minnesota (Big Ten) and Washington (Pac-8/10/12). However, it was common back east for major college football teams to be independent for many years. Pitt, Penn State, Florida St, Miami, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, others ... they were independent for decades. They finally got together under the Big East, something Joe Paterno pushed for a long time, except that Penn State went to the Big Ten instead.
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I've actually lived in Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, Seattle, and LA for work.

They definitely have similarities, but there are some glaring differences.

I don't think Pitt and the U are that similar, in terms of the fan bases and how they're followed.

Pitt isn't even the most popular school in Pittsburgh. It seems like there are way more Penn State fans than Pitt fans. This transfers to all of their athletics. I don't think I ever heard a person talk about Pitt basketball. Ever.
People in MN like the Vikings, but it's not like people in Pitt like the Steelers. Pitt likes the Steelers more like people in WI like the Packers (think 70 year old lady's in jerseys and stuff), so Pitt footballs is also competing with a much more fervent fan base.
Pittsburgh doesn't really attract many people from outside of Pittsburgh, so there aren't pockets of Ohio State fans or Maryland fans like there are pockets of Iowa and WI fans.

UCLA is a completely different animal.

I think the closest to us is Washington.
 

And Temple is basically Pitt, just in Philly instead of Pittsburgh.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Pitt isn't even the most popular school in Pittsburgh. It seems like there are way more Penn State fans than Pitt fans. This transfers to all of their athletics. I don't think I ever heard a person talk about Pitt basketball. Ever.
People in MN like the Vikings, but it's not like people in Pitt like the Steelers. Pitt likes the Steelers more like people in WI like the Packers (think 70 year old lady's in jerseys and stuff), so Pitt footballs is also competing with a much more fervent fan base.
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Thanks, good summary that seems reasonable to me. Fair enough, I was not considering that kind of viewpoint.

Bob_Loblaw said:
Pittsburgh doesn't really attract many people from outside of Pittsburgh, so there aren't pockets of Ohio State fans or Maryland fans like there are pockets of Iowa and WI fans.
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This is just not true, when completely generic. Pittsburgh is becoming a major tech center, and I think has been a major medical center. Self driving cars, for example, I think are being tested there. Carnegie Mellon is huge in computer science and robotics. Pitt is huge in medical.

BUT, to your point, those types of people who might move to Pittsburgh for those careers, may not necessarily be sports fans, let alone college sports fans.
 

discochris said:
And Temple is basically Pitt, just in Philly instead of Pittsburgh.
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It's quasi-public like Pitt. In fact, so is Penn State. The commonwealth is weird like that. Their truly public schools are in a system of schools across the state that play DII level athletics.

But Temple is not equivalent to Pitt, when it comes to research, or overall rankings. Not even close. Probably a big part of that is due to Penn being right there, which is a huge (medical) research school and an Ivy.
 

Gophers_4life said:
Thanks, good summary that seems reasonable to me. Fair enough, I was not considering that kind of viewpoint.



This is just not true, when completely generic. Pittsburgh is becoming a major tech center, and I think has been a major medical center. Self driving cars, for example, I think are being tested there. Carnegie Mellon is huge in computer science and robotics. Pitt is huge in medical.

BUT, to your point, those types of people who might move to Pittsburgh for those careers, may not necessarily be sports fans, let alone college sports fans.
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Yeah, I live in Pittsburgh for about 6 months out of the year. The uber "attempts" at self-driving cars are here and Carnegie Mellon is a great school, but the area simply does not pull in many people from neighboring areas (there aren't tons of people from Cleveland here).

My building in Pittsburgh is one of the only buildings in the city kind of known for transplants, and we all talk about how every one we meet is FROM Pittsburgh. It is significantly more common to see a person from WI or Iowa in Minneapolis than it is to run into people from Ohio, West Virginia (30 minutes away) or Maryland.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Yeah, I live in Pittsburgh for about 6 months out of the year. The uber "attempts" at self-driving cars are here and Carnegie Mellon is a great school, but the area simply does not pull in many people from neighboring areas (there aren't tons of people from Cleveland here).

My building in Pittsburgh is one of the only buildings in the city kind of known for transplants, and we all talk about how every one we meet is FROM Pittsburgh. It is significantly more common to see a person from WI or Iowa in Minneapolis than it is to run into people from Ohio, West Virginia (30 minutes away) or Maryland.
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I guess at what point do you consider yourself "from" Pittsburgh? Lived there 5 years? 10? 20? I can't believe all these CMU/Pitt grads who stay in the area for technology/medical related jobs are all from western PA. Some of them have to have came from Ohio, Maryland, etc. at some point.

Anyway, your point is well taken.


I used to say Washington was the most similar. But there was a very knowledgeable poster on here who made a really nice post comparing the two situations, vis-a-vis the evolution of the college and NFL team fanbases. Probably can't find that post now ... but it changed my mind. Though Washington still is a good comparison, regardless.


Colorado I think is less good, because it is so far physically away from Denver and the Broncos. Boulder is way out from Denver, and is its own thing. It would be similar-ish as the distance from Minneapolis to Albertville.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
My building in Pittsburgh is one of the only buildings in the city kind of known for transplants, and we all talk about how every one we meet is FROM Pittsburgh.
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Or, you might say, "Mostly everyone is a Yinzer."
 

Gophers_4life said:
But Temple is not equivalent to Pitt, when it comes to research, or overall rankings. Not even close. Probably a big part of that is due to Penn being right there, which is a huge (medical) research school and an Ivy.
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It also doesn't help that Temple is in North Philly whereas Pitt is in the Oakland section of Pittsburgh.
 

cjbfbp said:
It also doesn't help that Temple is in North Philly whereas Pitt is in the Oakland section of Pittsburgh.
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It looks like Temple is about a mile north of downtown Philly, whereas Penn is just west (right across the river).

In fact, Penn campus relative to downtown Philly somewhat reminds me of the East Bank relative to downtown Mpls.


If for some random reason Penn decided it wanted to become the Stanford of the East, in the sense of being an elite private school but playing P5 football and having a P5 athletic dept/budget, they'd be a GREAT fit for the Big Ten. Will probably never happen, but it would be nice.
 

Why wouldn't we compare with Indiana for football. They are basically in Indianapolis and have a similar football heritage in the last 40+ years. Only difference is they have Purdue and Notre Dame in state to recruit against.
 

Otis said:
Why wouldn't we compare with Indiana for football. They are basically in Indianapolis and have a similar football heritage in the last 40+ years. Only difference is they have Purdue and Notre Dame in state to recruit against.
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Bloomington is a separate college town 50+ miles south of Indy. It is not an urban, metropolitan campus
 

Otis said:
Why wouldn't we compare with Indiana for football. They are basically in Indianapolis and have a similar football heritage in the last 40+ years. Only difference is they have Purdue and Notre Dame in state to recruit against.
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The Indiana University system has a big campus right in Indy, with the med school, hospital, medical research, etc. But that's not the main campus. The main campus is in Bloomington, a good 60+ miles away from Indy.

In fact that Indy campus has its own sports teams. They compete in the Horizon League, I believe. Very similar to how there is a UIC campus, also in the Horizon League, that is separate from UI in Champaign. Another similar comparison is Alabama to UAB.
 

Gophers_4life said:
It looks like Temple is about a mile north of downtown Philly, whereas Penn is just west (right across the river).

In fact, Penn campus relative to downtown Philly somewhat reminds me of the East Bank relative to downtown Mpls.


If for some random reason Penn decided it wanted to become the Stanford of the East, in the sense of being an elite private school but playing P5 football and having a P5 athletic dept/budget, they'd be a GREAT fit for the Big Ten. Will probably never happen, but it would be nice.
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Yes, Temple is about a mile north of downtown. "North Philly" refers to the name of the neighborhood (there is actually quite a bit more of Philly north of North Philly). North Philadelphia is one of the worst, most blighted, and fairly expansive ghetto areas in the entire east coast (or even the nation). The immediate campus area of Temple is OK but it doesn't go that far and you don't have to get far at all from campus until things get pretty rough.

Penn's campus town is much larger and there are other universities in the general area (Drexel and U of Sciences, formerly Philadelphia Pharmacy). Although West Philly has some bad areas, it has been considerably more gentrified than North Philly.
 

Gophers_4life said:
It's quasi-public like Pitt. In fact, so is Penn State. The commonwealth is weird like that. Their truly public schools are in a system of schools across the state that play DII level athletics.

But Temple is not equivalent to Pitt, when it comes to research, or overall rankings. Not even close. Probably a big part of that is due to Penn being right there, which is a huge (medical) research school and an Ivy.
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I was mainly referring to Temple being quasi-public, and a very large school in an urban setting. It has a med school, law school, pharmacy school etc. It's not a stretch.
 


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