2016 Holiday Bowl

I've seen a number of references to this game, including from media personalities, which go something like this "A lot of these guys played really well in the Holiday Bowl under Claeys and now suddenly can't play". I went back and looked and this just isn't the case. Here is the depth chart for the Gophers for the Holiday Bowl: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools...016-17/misc_non_event/122316PositionChart.pdf

The Dline consisted of Hank Ekpe, Scott Ekpe, Steven Richardson, and Gaelin Elmore (2 Seniors and 2 Juniors) backups were Devers, Timms, Stelter and DeLattiboudere (Senior, Junior, Freshman, Freshman)

The Linebackers consisted of Celestin, Rallis, and Lynn (2 Seniors and a Junior) backups were Martin, Barber, Huff/Couglin (Freshman, Freshman, Sophomore, Freshman)

The Defensive Backs consisted of Durr, Myrick, Travis, and McGhee (Freshman, Senior, Senior, Junior) with Amoako, Huff, Ayinde listed as backups (only one CB listed as a backup though Alonzo Craighton would play in the game)

The only player listed as a starter for the Washington State game that is still on the roster is Coney Durr who tore his ACL in that game and certainly wasn't the same guy in 2017 and has still struggled with his health in 2018.

Here are the game stats: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/boxscores/2016-12-27-washington-state.html

The first thing that stands out is that Blake Cashman had a fantastic game and was not listed on the two deeps. Blake played a situational role at the time and you could certainly argue that he'd be better playing in a system that allows him to rush the passer and get in the backfield more often like under Claeys. Stilll, Cashman has been our highest graded linebacker in many games this year so he's not exactly the problem. Carter Coughlin also had a productive game, but Carter has been the Gophers most impactful defender this year, so you can't argue the coaches are not using him well. The other players to register statistics in the game that are still on the roster: Coney Durr, Kamal Martin, and Julian Huff. So you have a total of 5 guys still on the roster that played (or at least registered some statistic in that game) and that includes nobody on the defensive line and just one secondary player. Huff/Cashman normally played pass rushing roles for that Gopher team and could be kept fresh because they played 4 veteran linebackers ahead of them (Cody Poock was injured for this game). There is just one secondary player left from that game in Coney Durr and as mentioned before, he had the knee injury in that game and hadn't played a ton before that injury to truly grasp who he was going to be.

This is not a defense of PJ Fleck or Robb Smith, but to suggest the current team is anywhere close to what was on the field for the Holiday Bowl just isn't the case at all. This Gopher defense is terrible, but it's terrible with a different cast of characters than were on the field for that game.

Great post to counter the myth that these are the same players.

What we have is both a coaching and personnel issue. 9 games in and 1 sack by a player not named Coughlin.

Nobody wants to read this.
Especially those rolling in the satisfaction of watching Fleck's failures retorting with trolling Claeys posts.

I mean, anyone who knows this roster, knows what happened under Claeys, and knows the current roster know all of this already.

It's people who are essentially Fleck trolls who are choosing to ignore it 7 days a week for 9 weeks.


Doesn't mean the defense shouldn't be better, but comparing the two have about a much in common as me and the last Ms. America winner.

I don't think you understand the argument people are making. The argument that I see people make is that TC took pretty much the equivalent of a scout team with a few weeks notice and had them competing at a high level against one of the best offensives in the country (system wise at least). Again - that offense he faced was coming at the end of the season so all kinks were worked out vs. his side which was the first time most of these players were on the field in their assigned positions - much less on the field at the same time. TC didn't get 2 years to recruit his team for the match-up and put his best players forward - he had to play the hand he was dealt. He didn't cry about youth, lack of speed, or lack of talent - he simply game planned to put his players in the best possible positions despite these shortcomings.

I don't know who made the "A lot of these guys played really well in the Holiday Bowl under Claeys and now suddenly can't play" statement but I think the majority of us were just saying that the Holiday Bowl was a game that we won, when all odds were against us and we were not supposed to win. The Defense kept a then potent Washington State offense way below their season averages.

Now it is true that we have different personnel but have you once thought that maybe the defensive coaching hasn't been able to develop any of these guys? It's not like Claeys had superstars, all the players were developed under his system. The current system is just not developing the players, and the scheme is not the same. We have some good players, and we'll never know if they would have been even better under Claeys, but just look at all the guys that played under Claeys defenses that tasted the NFL. This is an egg/chicken debate, and I tend to go with the chicken this round. It's the coach's job to take these kids and make them better. It's the coach's job to patch the player's flaws with a scheme. I refuse to believe that our players are so bad that we will give up 50+ yard runs on every other defensive series... to an Ohio State team, let alone an Illinois team.

The legend of the Holiday Bowl grows with each passing week.

It was the same defensive system being ran for a number of years by players that had been recruited to play in and had been playing in.

Time to move on.


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The fact that the second best team of the Kill/Claeys era overcame a player protest to defeat an above average Washington State team (who had lost to an FCS team) that year means that PJ Fleck should be fired.

That wazzu team beat 2 teams with winning records that season. One was Idaho. Their win against Stanford was really impressive. Their loss against FCS Eastern Washington was not as impressive.



Am I doing this right?

What a garbage post. Anything to try and distract from the dumpster fire that Fleck has created. GWG, FtF, JG and EG9 should all be banned for a week so we don’t have to suffer through the cultists attempting to defend this cluster**** of a “culture,” almost always by denigrating the previous coach. Though I suppose this makes sense because there is nothing of substance that can positively be attributed to this regime.

csom_1991 said:

I don't think you understand the argument people are making. The argument that I see people make is that TC took pretty much the equivalent of a scout team with a few weeks notice and had them competing at a high level against one of the best offensives in the country (system wise at least). Again - that offense he faced was coming at the end of the season so all kinks were worked out vs. his side which was the first time most of these players were on the field in their assigned positions - much less on the field at the same time. TC didn't get 2 years to recruit his team for the match-up and put his best players forward - he had to play the hand he was dealt. He didn't cry about youth, lack of speed, or lack of talent - he simply game planned to put his players in the best possible positions despite these shortcomings.

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This is exactly right. Part of coaching is being able to go to war with the army you've got and finding ways to get the most out of it. There are obviously other parts to the job, and hopefully PJ is substantially better at those.

Face The Facts said:

I mean, anyone who knows this roster, knows what happened under Claeys, and knows the current roster know all of this already.

It's people who are essentially Fleck trolls who are choosing to ignore it 7 days a week for 9 weeks.


Doesn't mean the defense shouldn't be better, but comparing the two have about a much in common as me and the last Ms. America winner.

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The fact that this continues to happen is a sign of the depth of the issue we have on D. The offense has a long way to go, but you can see progress.

Get torched for 600+ yards and giving up 55 pints in a 24 point loss in a game your were favored by 9 points can’t be glossed over.

That line was not based on anything other than this team’s performance to date. This year. With this roster.

The performance is on the coaching staff. They will have their chance to right the ship and I hope they do. I would like the University of Minnesota to succeed, period. I’m not sycophantically committed to Fleck and can look at this game. This season. This roster and say, we’re not heading in the right direction on defense. Not even close and I don’t believe better players will solve everything that’s wrong. To blame this loss on the past, former coaches, former recruiting classes or the players is a complete cop-out.

This loss is on Fleck. I’m anxious to see him show signs of heading in the right direction, now. He can have it all solved in 2020 if he wants but that doesn’t magically happen. You build towards it, like we are on offense. Not there yet but we’re heading there. On defense? The signs we’ve taken a huge step backwards this year from last year cannot be glossed over.

The expectations going in to yesterday and the result are 100% on this coaching staff. Period.


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CurveballJesus said:

What a garbage post. Anything to try and distract from the dumpster fire that Fleck has created. GWG, FtF, JG and EG9 should all be banned for a week so we don’t have to suffer through the cultists attempting to defend this cluster**** of a “culture,” almost always by denigrating the previous coach. Though I suppose this makes sense because there is nothing of substance that can positively be attributed to this regime.

Click to expand...

You think people who have a different opinion than you should be banned from a message board?


Congratulations.
You sir are what is wrong with our society

Some guy said:

The fact that the second best team of the Kill/Claeys era overcame a player protest to defeat an above average Washington State team (who had lost to an FCS team) that year means that PJ Fleck should be fired.



Am I doing this right?

Click to expand...

Nope, you are not... the point is Claeys' defenses kept the gophers close enough to win games with a barely functional offense. Why can't Robb Smith keep us close enough to teams like Nebraska, Illinois? Fleck better wake up before he gets taken down in flames by Robb Smith.

^Do that, and you are doing it right!

Some guy said:

The fact that the second best team of the Kill/Claeys era overcame a player protest to defeat an above average Washington State team (who had lost to an FCS team) that year means that PJ Fleck should be fired.
Am I doing this right?

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is calling for Fleck to be fired, yet, at least. I give 3 years to evaluate (not generous enough to give 4) but Year -1 to Year 0 to Year 1/2 thus far has not shown anything that can be called progress. In fact, I think we have actually regressed from last year and from the start of this season. That leads me to believe we win less than 6 games next year. If that happens, I think Fleck should be fired - period. Of course, the short bus riders on this site and in the U admin will clamor for 4 or even 5 years so we can judge how things are really going....which just makes the dumpster fire that much harder to clean up for the next guy. There should be a line in the sand - make a bowl next year or PJ should simply resign as HC because I know we won't have the common sense to fire him...heck, there's a monorail to build!

csom_1991 said:

I don't think you understand the argument people are making. The argument that I see people make is that TC took pretty much the equivalent of a scout team with a few weeks notice and had them competing at a high level against one of the best offensives in the country (system wise at least). Again - that offense he faced was coming at the end of the season so all kinks were worked out vs. his side which was the first time most of these players were on the field in their assigned positions - much less on the field at the same time. TC didn't get 2 years to recruit his team for the match-up and put his best players forward - he had to play the hand he was dealt. He didn't cry about youth, lack of speed, or lack of talent - he simply game planned to put his players in the best possible positions despite these shortcomings.

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Bingo.

Why are you so passionate about debating people on a message board if you agree with them the coach should get until the end of next year?

How do you know they’ll not want the coach fired at the end of year 5?


I would calm down if I were you. You’re stressing yourself out too much

csom_1991 said:

TC didn't get 2 years to recruit his team for the match-up.

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You’re right. He had 5 years.


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scools12 said:

You’re right. He had 5 years.
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The players that he recruited, coached, and developed AND EARNED this bowl match-up, were not the same ones that played in that game. The in-season cohesion that he formed was wiped away - his best players were taken away. So, he took a scout team that was never expected to contribute at that level and at that time and he game planned for them.

csom_1991 said:

The players that he recruited, coached, and developed AND EARNED this bowl match-up, were not the same ones that played in that game. The in-season cohesion that he formed was wiped away - his best players were taken away. So, he took a scout team that was never expected to contribute at that level and at that time and he game planned for them.

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Oh for God's sake...

Face The Facts said:

Oh for God's sake...

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Yeah, I know...he was fat and talked slow so he had to go.

csom_1991 said:

The players that he recruited, coached, and developed AND EARNED this bowl match-up, were not the same ones that played in that game. The in-season cohesion that he formed was wiped away - his best players were taken away. So, he took a scout team that was never expected to contribute at that level and at that time and he game planned for them.

Click to expand...

And the legend grows.


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Different scheme than today and outside of Durr those guys were mostly LB’s. There aren’t 6 LB spots in this scheme.

I’m more worried that Smith went backwards at Arkansas and tOSU is going backwards in defense. I hope Fleck is able to adapt or his belief in recruiting comes to fruition.

Some guy said:

Why are you so passionate about debating people on a message board if you agree with them the coach should get until the end of next year?

How do you know they’ll not want the coach fired at the end of year 5?


I would calm down if I were you. You’re stressing yourself out too much

Click to expand...

You'll have to ask the guy who started the thread. Didn't know the 2016 Holiday Bowl was gonna be a "hot topic" now.

We have no idea what would have happened if Coyle and Kaler threw away their many months of searching for a new coach, or if the incident didn't happen.

The incident did happen and they did get their new coach. Right now the cliche fits. It is what it is.

All we really know is that the Defense looks much worse now then it did in Fleck's first season. Worse then earlier this year. Personally think that's because of injuries and hope that with only 3 games left some of the "redshirt" guys will play and offer some help. Don't know what's gonna happen in the future, though pretty sure that the number of season tickets won't go up next year. Unless the powers that be decide to cut back big time on those mandatory donation fees.

You know, I'm not even going to hope for bowl games or a Rose Bowl anymore.

Our greatest moment as a Gopher fan already occurred and it happened at the Holiday Bowl.
Whenever we starting thinking about a hopeful future, I'm just going to go back and recall the unnamed scout players who bravely fought for our Gophers in 2016.

CurveballJesus said:

What a garbage post. Anything to try and distract from the dumpster fire that Fleck has created. GWG, FtF, JG and EG9 should all be banned for a week so we don’t have to suffer through the cultists attempting to defend this cluster**** of a “culture,” almost always by denigrating the previous coach. Though I suppose this makes sense because there is nothing of substance that can positively be attributed to this regime.

Click to expand...

Yeah, we better ban people because EG showed the depth chart and you don’t like it...

Face The Facts said:

You know, I'm not even going to hope for bowl games or a Rose Bowl anymore.

Our greatest moment as a Gopher fan already occurred and it happened at the Holiday Bowl.
Whenever we starting thinking about a hopeful future, I'm just going to go back and recall the unnamed scout players who bravely fought for our Gophers in 2016.

Click to expand...

I have only been a gopher fan for 20 years. In those 20, I put this bowl game win up there with beating Michigan (I know they sucked that year), beating WI and Rhys Lloyd with the ax, beating Bama in a bowl game (again, I know they sucked that year), beating a highly ranked PSU, blowing out Iowa, beating OR in the Sun Bowl.


You can talk about looking forward to a Rose Bowl, but the reality is that you were on this board with a post-coitus glow after losing by 3 scores to tOSU.

Some guy said:

You think people who have a different opinion than you should be banned from a message board?


Congratulations.
You sir are what is wrong with our society

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I have heard it has happened that way on these types of boards. People have been voted off this very island for stating differing points of view, opinions and sentiments. And so it has been...and probably will continue to be. To contrast the power structure is to risk being silenced. That's just the way it seems to be. But, remember: life is short and you only get to be yourself and true to yourself in this go around. So, tell it like you think it is!

In the mean while, Coach Fleck's tenure here at Minnesota has produced 3 Big Ten wins and 12 Big Ten losses as the winds and rains of November come upon us. No matter what anyone says, thinks or does. That is a .200 Big Ten winning percentage. He has much time to prove what ever it is he wants to prove. He is the master of his boat and will have administrative support to do what ever it is he wants to do. For a long while. (Longer than some people will want...shorter than some people may think he needs...deserves...or SHOULD have. The AD will not be coiled and ready to strike down his culture until the time comes...)

He will be praised...criticized...sainted...bashed...criticized...laughed at and given still more time by the administration regardless of anyone's opinion. And if and when the administration purges him from the scene, it may make no rhyme or reason to the fleckites and fleckheads. People who are fleck heads today...may not be fleckheads tomorrow. It happens that way. It just IS that way.

I don't "contrast" as much as I used to. Now, I merely let the Big Ten record of any revenue sport coach at the University of Minnesota speak for itself. Good luck to Coach Fleck. Good luck to culture. Good luck to the critics. Good luck to those who dare offer opinions contrary to the opinions of the power structure on this board. Good luck to all the players. (Please remember the players...they don't get to call the shots...they have to honor the laws...the rules...the whims of the coaches, the University of Minnesota and the demands of this society which rightfully operates under the RULE of LAW. Good luck to all of us...we fans...we critics...we paying customers and we people who wish to post here and/or read this board.

This 2018 Big Ten Football Season IS what the Big Ten record says it is. But, just remember: there still IS the possibility of NEXT SEASON, most likely. So, post...say what you think...contrast...drink cool aid...be yourself. Challenge...even contrast. Life probably goes on...and on...and the threat of being banned...the promise of being banned for stating a contrasting point of view is part of what makes posting such a spirited part of the football season. There are ONLY three more Big Ten Games for the GOPHER left in the month of November, in the year of 2018. It gets no better than this time of this year. We are concluding the season. Answers for this season will soon be provided. This season IS that this season is.

Be bold. Be spirited. Be emphatic in your statements and beliefs. It is what being a fan is all about. Things could ALWAYS be better....things could USUALLY be worse. Some may come...some may go. But, post...post...post!

Beat the stinking badger, GOPHER And: "...long live GOPHERHOLE. Prosper, mature and grow old. Do what ever must be done. The times and the stories and the names always change. Characters come and they go. Characters are characters. Some arguments are ALWAYS necessary to have a lively, spirited conversation. To have a GREAT conversation.

Face The Facts said:

I mean, anyone who knows this roster, knows what happened under Claeys, and knows the current roster know all of this already.

It's people who are essentially Fleck trolls who are choosing to ignore it 7 days a week for 9 weeks.


Doesn't mean the defense shouldn't be better, but comparing the two have about a much in common as me and the last Ms. America winner.

Click to expand...

I think the point is that Robb Smith couldn’t hold Claey’s jock strap when it comes to coaching defense. Who cares if they’re not the same players, this is Fleck’s second season and his defense has gotten progressively worse. There aren’t many coaches in the country with a worse defense. It’s not like he’s got the worst players in the country on defense. Plus, he’s responsible for bringing guys in.


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csom_1991 said:

I don't think you understand the argument people are making. The argument that I see people make is that TC took pretty much the equivalent of a scout team with a few weeks notice and had them competing at a high level against one of the best offensives in the country (system wise at least). Again - that offense he faced was coming at the end of the season so all kinks were worked out vs. his side which was the first time most of these players were on the field in their assigned positions - much less on the field at the same time. TC didn't get 2 years to recruit his team for the match-up and put his best players forward - he had to play the hand he was dealt. He didn't cry about youth, lack of speed, or lack of talent - he simply game planned to put his players in the best possible positions despite these shortcomings.

Click to expand...

You're right. He had 6 years to recruit his defense, not 2.

Some Day...Maybe said:

I think the point is that Robb Smith couldn’t hold Claey’s jock strap when it comes to coaching defense. Who cares if their not the same players, this is Fleck’s second season and his defense has gotten progressively worse. They’re aren’t many coaches in the country with a worse defense. It’s not like he’s got the worst players in the country on defense. Plus, he’s responsible for bringing guys in.


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Thanks for your opinion.