A good read about Alzarez start as Badger HC

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Someone should send that to the Gophers staff to help them for the lows like yesterday.
 

I’m not sure either the situations or coaches are similar but it is always interesting to see how turnarounds are achieved.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
I’m not sure either the situations or coaches are similar but it is always interesting to see how turnarounds are achieved.
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But, do you really consider this to be a turnaround? It seemed like Claeys had them moving in a fairly-decent direction.
 


really good read, but a few key differences.

1) Barry took over a team which won 6 games in three years. The cupboard was bare
2) He put in a scheme where a less talented team can be competitive, focusing on discipline and power football
3) The team showed improvement in first season, even though they didn't win. 90th to 64th in defense.

None of those apply here. Its hard to believe that going to a bowl (not really an impressive achievement) will occur within PJ's first 3 years.
 

NewBerlinBucky said:
But, do you really consider this to be a turnaround? It seemed like Claeys had them moving in a fairly-decent direction.
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Agreed PJ decided to tear down a creaky, boring, solidly built middle of the century house and had plans to rebuild a flashy, modernistic showpiece but hired a mail order diploma architectural team. We have discovered the forward pass, constraint plays, the middle of the field but have forgotten about utilization of tight ends. We run a wierd version of the wild cat. On defense we cannot figure out where the play is going, can’t stay in gaps, can’t tackle; went from respectable to a laughing stock in less than 2 years.
 

For those saying that the situations are different, I think you’re missing the point. When a new coach comes in, they face challenges from before and establishing your culture and style takes time. If we were to can fleck after this season, ask yourself this:

1) who are we going to get who is A) available and B) willing to come here knowing we fired our last two coaches one coming off a 9win season who stood up for his players and the other who is a popular young and upcoming coach after 2 seasons

2) what will the next coach want to do....establish their culture and style? How will they do that without time?
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Agreed PJ decided to tear down a creaky, boring, solidly built middle of the century house and had plans to rebuild a flashy, modernistic showpiece but hired a mail order diploma architectural team. We have discovered the forward pass, constraint plays, the middle of the field but have forgotten about utilization of tight ends. We run a wierd version of the wild cat. On defense we cannot figure out where the play is going, can’t stay in gaps, can’t tackle; went from respectable to a laughing stock in less than 2 years.
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So the real question is how long would fans have been ok with the creaky, boring, middle of the road home. One that wasn't the ugliest house on the block but also one that would never be confused with the nicer places in the cul-de-sac down the road that always host the big parties and get all the attention?

Right now there is a lot of pining for the safety of a few years ago when the team wasn't a contender but was decent enough that we didn't feel bad about ourselves as a fanbase.

Fleck is trying to build the team into something different then it has been in 50 plus years. The early returns aren't great but he is also still under 2 years into things and it is way to early to throw in the towel and start over yet again.

It takes time, we were respectable under Kill/Claeys similar to the way we were respectable under Mason but those teams had a ceiling and it wasn't a championship level ceiling it was a middle of the pack not terrible but not great either ceiling. Too early to say if Fleck will succeed but just because the immediate results aren't visible doesn't mean things are not happening behind the scenes to get the team where it needs to be in the future. I have lived in this world, the fanbase just sees the smallest fraction of what is truly going on in the program but makes massive assumptions based on the little they can see.
 



MNVCGUY said:
So the real question is how long would fans have been ok with the creaky, boring, middle of the road home. One that wasn't the ugliest house on the block but also one that would never be confused with the nicer places in the cul-de-sac down the road that always host the big parties and get all the attention?

Right now there is a lot of pining for the safety of a few years ago when the team wasn't a contender but was decent enough that we didn't feel bad about ourselves as a fanbase.

Fleck is trying to build the team into something different then it has been in 50 plus years. The early returns aren't great but he is also still under 2 years into things and it is way to early to throw in the towel and start over yet again.

It takes time, we were respectable under Kill/Claeys similar to the way we were respectable under Mason but those teams had a ceiling and it wasn't a championship level ceiling it was a middle of the pack not terrible but not great either ceiling. Too early to say if Fleck will succeed but just because the immediate results aren't visible doesn't mean things are not happening behind the scenes to get the team where it needs to be in the future. I have lived in this world, the fanbase just sees the smallest fraction of what is truly going on in the program but makes massive assumptions based on the little they can see.
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Well said
 


MNVCGUY said:
So the real question is how long would fans have been ok with the creaky, boring, middle of the road home. One that wasn't the ugliest house on the block but also one that would never be confused with the nicer places in the cul-de-sac down the road that always host the big parties and get all the attention?

Right now there is a lot of pining for the safety of a few years ago when the team wasn't a contender but was decent enough that we didn't feel bad about ourselves as a fanbase.

Fleck is trying to build the team into something different then it has been in 50 plus years. The early returns aren't great but he is also still under 2 years into things and it is way to early to throw in the towel and start over yet again.

It takes time, we were respectable under Kill/Claeys similar to the way we were respectable under Mason but those teams had a ceiling and it wasn't a championship level ceiling it was a middle of the pack not terrible but not great either ceiling. Too early to say if Fleck will succeed but just because the immediate results aren't visible doesn't mean things are not happening behind the scenes to get the team where it needs to be in the future. I have lived in this world, the fanbase just sees the smallest fraction of what is truly going on in the program but makes massive assumptions based on the little they can see.
Click to expand...

I'll buy the bold with Mason, he had clearly plateaued and the best seasons were behind him. If you are going to group Kill/Claeys together, it seems odd to conclude they had reached a ceiling when the best season was also the most recent one.
 

MNVCGUY said:
So the real question is how long would fans have been ok with the creaky, boring, middle of the road home. One that wasn't the ugliest house on the block but also one that would never be confused with the nicer places in the cul-de-sac down the road that always host the big parties and get all the attention?

Right now there is a lot of pining for the safety of a few years ago when the team wasn't a contender but was decent enough that we didn't feel bad about ourselves as a fanbase.

Fleck is trying to build the team into something different then it has been in 50 plus years. The early returns aren't great but he is also still under 2 years into things and it is way to early to throw in the towel and start over yet again.

It takes time, we were respectable under Kill/Claeys similar to the way we were respectable under Mason but those teams had a ceiling and it wasn't a championship level ceiling it was a middle of the pack not terrible but not great either ceiling. Too early to say if Fleck will succeed but just because the immediate results aren't visible doesn't mean things are not happening behind the scenes to get the team where it needs to be in the future. I have lived in this world, the fanbase just sees the smallest fraction of what is truly going on in the program but makes massive assumptions based on the little they can see.
Click to expand...

I’ve never said PJ should be fired so I think you’re projecting a little bit. I do think he is underachieving vs those coaches you mentioned and time will tell if he makes the right decisions to turn things around. He will get at least two years to prove himself worthy of your benefit of doubt but I’ve also seen this movie before as well at other places with other coaches.
 



bleedsmaroonandgold said:
I'll buy the bold with Mason, he had clearly plateaued and the best seasons were behind him. If you are going to group Kill/Claeys together, it seems odd to conclude they had reached a ceiling when the best season was also the most recent one.
Click to expand...

I have said before that I firmly believe the step back last year was going to happen no matter who the coach was. May not have been quite as extreme without the coaching change but that roster was littered with holes at key places.

I don't think you can really unlink Kill/Claeys with the way things played out here. The only reason Claeys became the head coach was because of what happened to Kill. So looking at Kill/Claeys and Mason they were very similar in a lot of ways. On the recruiting front they were good at finding/developing guys that fit their system but not great at finding/developing those next level guys that could propel the team to new heights. I have no way to prove it outside of what I saw but I believe their ceilings were very similar.

Had we stuck with Claeys I think we would have stayed decent but I honestly don't believe he ever would have been able to take the program beyond what Kill had done. He is a defensive coordinator, it is what he is good at and it is where he belongs.
 

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