Chicago Tribune: 5 College Basketball Coaches on the Hot Seat (Pitino #4)

Donate To GopherHole
Will repeat. i do not think he will fail this year as i expect a top 3 finish. But that is not the measure of real success as he will need to do it year after year with actual conference championships.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
A few have had a chip since he was hired. For most of us, the chip grew along with the length of that leash. At some point he has to be accountable for results:

1 NCAA tourney appearance (0 wins)
1 NIT appearance (won title)
3 years with no tourney or NIT (this was the same as the number of times Monson missed both tournaments in 8 years, including the year where he was fired 7 games in, despite dealing with the Haskins era sanctions)
3-5 BTT record (.375 winning percentage) (includes two losses in the Wednesday 11 through 14 games, one trip to semifinals, one trip to quarterfinals)
31-59 Conference record (.344 winning percentage) (worse than Monson despite sanctions, worse than Tubby)
90-78 overall record (.536 winning percentage)

This is an atrocious five year record. It will still be a bad six year record even with good sixth year (barring something miraculous). Like I said earlier, we should keep him if he makes the tournament, but "longer leash than a typical hire" is quite the understatement.
Click to expand...

This is really all that needs to be posted here. I like Pitino personally, but the record has been atrocious. If he's not in the NCAA's this year, he's certainly gone at the end of the season. One tournament appearance in SIX years is not even close to acceptable not to mention what would be ZERO NCAA tournament wins in SIX years. I hope he makes it, but my confidence in him as a coach is not particularly high right now. The scary thing is even if he does make it, he's going to need to hit the transfer season/Spring recruiting out of the park just to keep from sliding back down the standings and putting his job right back in danger.
 

EG#9 said:
This is really all that needs to be posted here. I like Pitino personally, but the record has been atrocious. If he's not in the NCAA's this year, he's certainly gone at the end of the season. One tournament appearance in SIX years is not even close to acceptable not to mention what would be ZERO NCAA tournament wins in SIX years. I hope he makes it, but my confidence in him as a coach is not particularly high right now. The scary thing is even if he does make it, he's going to need to hit the transfer season/Spring recruiting out of the park just to keep from sliding back down the standings and putting his job right back in danger.
Click to expand...

Barring a losing record this season, I just don’t see Mark Coyle firing Pitino. I get the sense that there isn’t a ton of pressure on the four big head coaches this year (football, MBball, WBball, & hockey-of course Whalen & Motzko are new) How many years are left on Pitino’s contact? I expect at least an NIT bid this year, btw.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

The only thing that gets him fired this season is more off-court crap ... or really terrible on-court performance. I don't expect the latter.

If Lynch hadn't turned out to be, well, Lynch, and the injuries hadn't mounted up last year, Pitino's overall B1G record would look a lot different. You could hold Pitino responsible for bringing in Lynch in the first place, but it's hard to hold him accountable for injuries.

JTG
 

rockford said:
The only thing that gets him fired this season is more off-court crap ... or really terrible on-court performance. I don't expect the latter.

If Lynch hadn't turned out to be, well, Lynch, and the injuries hadn't mounted up last year, Pitino's overall B1G record would look a lot different. You could hold Pitino responsible for bringing in Lynch in the first place, but it's hard to hold him accountable for injuries.

JTG
Click to expand...

Injuries were truly awful last year no doubt. Over a 5 year period nearly every coach has a year where they played a unfair role. So everyone could have a better record. If you gave him 8 more wins last year he would be 29-51, still tremendously bad. Could,would and if are always for teams that did not get it done. This will be a highly successful team but the issue will be can he win in a way that brings conference titles, and contends every year ! No more NIT ever !
 


I’m not willing to blow this up yet. We knew at the time of the hire it would be a bumpy ride
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
A few have had a chip since he was hired. For most of us, the chip grew along with the length of that leash. At some point he has to be accountable for results:

1 NCAA tourney appearance (0 wins)
1 NIT appearance (won title)
3 years with no tourney or NIT (this was the same as the number of times Monson missed both tournaments in 8 years, including the year where he was fired 7 games in, despite dealing with the Haskins era sanctions)
3-5 BTT record (.375 winning percentage) (includes two losses in the Wednesday 11 through 14 games, one trip to semifinals, one trip to quarterfinals)
31-59 Conference record (.344 winning percentage) (worse than Monson despite sanctions, worse than Tubby)
90-78 overall record (.536 winning percentage)

This is an atrocious five year record. It will still be a bad six year record even with good sixth year (barring something miraculous). Like I said earlier, we should keep him if he makes the tournament, but "longer leash than a typical hire" is quite the understatement.
Click to expand...

Guys, I am sounding like a broken record repeating the defense of Pitino is so many threads where the same group of GH's think he should be fired. His record at Minnesota is not good and if you just look at the record I can see why some people want to say he should be fired. Having a good win/loss record and competing for B1G titles are the ultimate goal, but I think you have to take a deeper look at the details to get a better picture of Pitino as a coach. I will try to go into a few of the details where I think is shows that he is a good coach:

- Pitino has proven he can develop players. Mo Walker was transferred into a major presence on the inside (how much weight did he lose?). The radio announcers mentioned how much of a change took place in the practices in how professional and fast pace they were. Practices included individual player development. Look how Mason became one of the best guards in the B1G. Murphy has become an animal, Lynch changed from a foul machine into defensive player of the year, etc, etc, etc...
- Pitino made mistakes in has early recruiting that hindered the team for years (no depth, dead roster spots, lack of talent, etc..). He has learned from that and has gotten top rated classes that last couple of years. The current roster is very deep and full of versatile player that can switch positions on the fly.
- Pitino can handle the spotlight. He has been a good representative for the U and is one of the most straight forward coaches in the game. He seems to be a genuine good guy and I like his sense of humor.
- Pitino is a players coach. His style is evolving into a free flowing, fast paced approach that gives players freedom to play. This is an advantage in recruiting.
- Pitino is a good game planner. He was responsible for game planning while at Louisville and Florida. He had a drop off last year (that may have lead to the coaching changes), but he know what it takes.
- Pitino is a good game coach. He showed it in the U's run for the NIT title, in his first year at FIU and many of his match up with the top coaches in the country (B1G). Also, when he switched to the all freshman lineup in that very bad year.

His early recruiting woes caused him to not have teams where players were actually playing in their correct positions (remember the walk-on as the starting PG and the holes in the middle). The roster problems manifested themselves into a majority of those losses on his record. Pitino has been one of the first to admit that he was given the job very early in his career. He didn't have 4 years at a MAC school to learn that just because 5 star players have you in their top 3/5 doesn't mean they will come to your school, or that even when you open a spot for a local kid that promises to play for you.... We were a mid level P5 BB school, the only way you are going to catch a potential star coach is to grab him early before he is ready. I think Pitino is going to be a very good coach and I don't want to throw him away by counting all of his learning curve against him.

In summary, I think that Pitino has shown that he knows all of the little things that make a program good and that he is just starting to hit his stride. I don't want him fired because he lost too many games when he was learning.
 

alchemy2u said:
Guys, I am sounding like a broken record repeating the defense of Pitino is so many threads where the same group of GH's think he should be fired. His record at Minnesota is not good and if you just look at the record I can see why some people want to say he should be fired. Having a good win/loss record and competing for B1G titles are the ultimate goal, but I think you have to take a deeper look at the details to get a better picture of Pitino as a coach. I will try to go into a few of the details where I think is shows that he is a good coach:

- Pitino has proven he can develop players. Mo Walker was transferred into a major presence on the inside (how much weight did he lose?). The radio announcers mentioned how much of a change took place in the practices in how professional and fast pace they were. Practices included individual player development. Look how Mason became one of the best guards in the B1G. Murphy has become an animal, Lynch changed from a foul machine into defensive player of the year, etc, etc, etc...
- Pitino made mistakes in has early recruiting that hindered the team for years (no depth, dead roster spots, lack of talent, etc..). He has learned from that and has gotten top rated classes that last couple of years. The current roster is very deep and full of versatile player that can switch positions on the fly.
- Pitino can handle the spotlight. He has been a good representative for the U and is one of the most straight forward coaches in the game. He seems to be a genuine good guy and I like his sense of humor.
- Pitino is a players coach. His style is evolving into a free flowing, fast paced approach that gives players freedom to play. This is an advantage in recruiting.
- Pitino is a good game planner. He was responsible for game planning while at Louisville and Florida. He had a drop off last year (that may have lead to the coaching changes), but he know what it takes.
- Pitino is a good game coach. He showed it in the U's run for the NIT title, in his first year at FIU and many of his match up with the top coaches in the country (B1G). Also, when he switched to the all freshman lineup in that very bad year.

His early recruiting woes caused him to not have teams where players were actually playing in their correct positions (remember the walk-on as the starting PG and the holes in the middle). The roster problems manifested themselves into a majority of those losses on his record. Pitino has been one of the first to admit that he was given the job very early in his career. He didn't have 4 years at a MAC school to learn that just because 5 star players have you in their top 3/5 doesn't mean they will come to your school, or that even when you open a spot for a local kid that promises to play for you.... We were a mid level P5 BB school, the only way you are going to catch a potential star coach is to grab him early before he is ready. I think Pitino is going to be a very good coach and I don't want to throw him away by counting all of his learning curve against him.

In summary, I think that Pitino has shown that he knows all of the little things that make a program good and that he is just starting to hit his stride. I don't want him fired because he lost too many games when he was learning.
Click to expand...

Hope you are right. I actually love Pitino personally, his candor and banter with the media and his blog posts is refreshing, especially when compared to some of the nonsense one of his head coaching peers at the U is constantly feeding to the media. I would love nothing more to the end the year saying "only an idiot would think about firing him now," but for that to happen, I need to see actual results, not signs that make me hope those results materialize in year 7 or later.
 

alchemy2u said:
Guys, I am sounding like a broken record repeating the defense of Pitino is so many threads where the same group of GH's think he should be fired. His record at Minnesota is not good and if you just look at the record I can see why some people want to say he should be fired. Having a good win/loss record and competing for B1G titles are the ultimate goal, but I think you have to take a deeper look at the details to get a better picture of Pitino as a coach. I will try to go into a few of the details where I think is shows that he is a good coach:

- Pitino has proven he can develop players. Mo Walker was transferred into a major presence on the inside (how much weight did he lose?). The radio announcers mentioned how much of a change took place in the practices in how professional and fast pace they were. Practices included individual player development. Look how Mason became one of the best guards in the B1G. Murphy has become an animal, Lynch changed from a foul machine into defensive player of the year, etc, etc, etc...
- Pitino made mistakes in has early recruiting that hindered the team for years (no depth, dead roster spots, lack of talent, etc..). He has learned from that and has gotten top rated classes that last couple of years. The current roster is very deep and full of versatile player that can switch positions on the fly.
- Pitino can handle the spotlight. He has been a good representative for the U and is one of the most straight forward coaches in the game. He seems to be a genuine good guy and I like his sense of humor.
- Pitino is a players coach. His style is evolving into a free flowing, fast paced approach that gives players freedom to play. This is an advantage in recruiting.
- Pitino is a good game planner. He was responsible for game planning while at Louisville and Florida. He had a drop off last year (that may have lead to the coaching changes), but he know what it takes.
- Pitino is a good game coach. He showed it in the U's run for the NIT title, in his first year at FIU and many of his match up with the top coaches in the country (B1G). Also, when he switched to the all freshman lineup in that very bad year.

His early recruiting woes caused him to not have teams where players were actually playing in their correct positions (remember the walk-on as the starting PG and the holes in the middle). The roster problems manifested themselves into a majority of those losses on his record. Pitino has been one of the first to admit that he was given the job very early in his career. He didn't have 4 years at a MAC school to learn that just because 5 star players have you in their top 3/5 doesn't mean they will come to your school, or that even when you open a spot for a local kid that promises to play for you.... We were a mid level P5 BB school, the only way you are going to catch a potential star coach is to grab him early before he is ready. I think Pitino is going to be a very good coach and I don't want to throw him away by counting all of his learning curve against him.

In summary, I think that Pitino has shown that he knows all of the little things that make a program good and that he is just starting to hit his stride. I don't want him fired because he lost too many games when he was learning.
Click to expand...

Agree with much of what you say. It has to be pointed however that the lack of establishing a identity for the program from day one falls directly on him. Offense, defense something has to be something everyone knows you for. Usually it is built with strong fundamentals that require taking good shots and causing opponents to take bad shots. To execute with low turnovers. That there still is not a identity is bothersome. Every coach has recruiting misses but not on character. That can not be compromised. I think he has had way below staffs until now. Jeter is a big get. Recruiting has been just ok. I look at who they beat out. They have seldom beaten a top 20 program for a player. They did get Mason over UVA in a coup as they are a top 10 program. But you have to beat Missouri, KSU, Iowa and the like. I studied mediocre programs that broke through to win multiple power conference titles and they did it with defense and character. I am in no way in favor of a start over unless promised a top 40 coach and that is not happening. This roster is built to win now but it has to be now. I put aside what i want him to be to sort through the vast evidence of what he has been and what he is on the summer circuit. He does not carry that national respect because it has to be earned. Lots of coaches in tougher jobs won much sooner. This is a hard job, history shows that but there are a whole bunch of coaches who built a winner faster than 5 years. I get that he was not a top 3 candidate, not even close so there was a growing curve but establish a identity from day one. Guard like your life depends on it. It is pointed out that he has done well against other good coaches but i have not seen that at all. Everyone has a opinion. I do not consider mine to be any better than anyone else. I use my eyes and the available research and clear myself of my preference for what i wish was. I have high expectations, always have and am sick and tired of the fan base thinking that .500 in the conference is good. Enough, string together 5--6 years of being at least 4 games over .500 in the conference. It has been done elsewhere. It is was great coaches do. GOOD is to do it 2-3 times in a row, maybe a conference title. Doing it multiple times spells greatness. 31-59 IS HORRIFIC in any circumstance. This team should be 1st or 2nd in the conference if he is really good. If he can not finish higher than UW this year that would be very disappointing. I continue to make my donations in good faith that he can win now and he better. Pretty sick and tired of nearly 50 years with most very mediocre results.
 



builtbadgers said:
Agree with much of what you say. It has to be pointed however that the lack of establishing a identity for the program from day one falls directly on him. Offense, defense something has to be something everyone knows you for. Usually it is built with strong fundamentals that require taking good shots and causing opponents to take bad shots. To execute with low turnovers. That there still is not a identity is bothersome. Every coach has recruiting misses but not on character. That can not be compromised. I think he has had way below staffs until now. Jeter is a big get. Recruiting has been just ok. I look at who they beat out. They have seldom beaten a top 20 program for a player. They did get Mason over UVA in a coup as they are a top 10 program. But you have to beat Missouri, KSU, Iowa and the like. I studied mediocre programs that broke through to win multiple power conference titles and they did it with defense and character. I am in no way in favor of a start over unless promised a top 40 coach and that is not happening. This roster is built to win now but it has to be now. I put aside what i want him to be to sort through the vast evidence of what he has been and what he is on the summer circuit. He does not carry that national respect because it has to be earned. Lots of coaches in tougher jobs won much sooner. This is a hard job, history shows that but there are a whole bunch of coaches who built a winner faster than 5 years. I get that he was not a top 3 candidate, not even close so there was a growing curve but establish a identity from day one. Guard like your life depends on it. It is pointed out that he has done well against other good coaches but i have not seen that at all. Everyone has a opinion. I do not consider mine to be any better than anyone else. I use my eyes and the available research and clear myself of my preference for what i wish was. I have high expectations, always have and am sick and tired of the fan base thinking that .500 in the conference is good. Enough, string together 5--6 years of being at least 4 games over .500 in the conference. It has been done elsewhere. It is was great coaches do. GOOD is to do it 2-3 times in a row, maybe a conference title. Doing it multiple times spells greatness. 31-59 IS HORRIFIC in any circumstance. This team should be 1st or 2nd in the conference if he is really good. If he can not finish higher than UW this year that would be very disappointing. I continue to make my donations in good faith that he can win now and he better. Pretty sick and tired of nearly 50 years with most very mediocre results.
Click to expand...

I agree with what you are saying and think that he has the team ready to be consistently at the top of the conference. Last year he had the making of a competitive team, but not enough depth to withstand all of the players they lost. This year we are hoping there is enough playing time to go around. I think he had some identity expectations when he started (full press..) but learned that he didn’t have the players and that it wouldn’t work in the B1G. He didn’t even have enough players to play the positions, let alone force a style of play. I agree, it was his team and he is responsible for the players he recruited. This was a part of his “on the job training”. I think that he will now have an identity of scrappy defense with a fast, free flowing offense. His 95%.... he has said that IW needs to improve his defense to get more playing time. I know it has been frustrating to be a Gopher BB fan, but now is time for the payoff!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

You should never fire someone for record.

You could have a coach with a good record that has the program on awful footing that deserves firing and a coach with a below average record that has the program doing the right things who doesn’t deserve to get fired.


Record is a symptom not a condition. Fire based on the condition of the program, not the symptoms.
 

Some guy said:
You should never fire someone for record.

You could have a coach with a good record that has the program on awful footing that deserves firing and a coach with a below average record that has the program doing the right things who doesn’t deserve to get fired.


Record is a symptom not a condition. Fire based on the condition of the program, not the symptoms.
Click to expand...


100%. Withoiut losing a crazy number of players the last two seasons, Pitino most likely has multiple ncaa tourney wins. This season is certainly looking promising. Our young players are doing well setting us up for future success. Matthew Hurt is a possibility. Guys like playing for Coach Pitino and player development is a strength.

Of course, this could change if we underperform and recruiting slips. However, indications are certainly that Coach Pitino has this program headed in an upward trajectory.
 

ltf said:
100%. Withoiut losing a crazy number of players the last two seasons, Pitino most likely has multiple ncaa tourney wins. This season is certainly looking promising. Our young players are doing well setting us up for future success. Matthew Hurt is a possibility. Guys like playing for Coach Pitino and player development is a strength.

Of course, this could change if we underperform and recruiting slips. However, indications are certainly that Coach Pitino has this program headed in an upward trajectory.
Click to expand...

There is no way you can assume multiple NCAA wins. The tourney is a crapshoot. Sure the Gophers had way too many injuries last year but the year before is just the average amount teams have and we did not win one. This year should be a great year but up until now there is nothing about 31-59 with very few marquee wins that is upward trajectory to me. Lets say in 5 years he has the record back to .500, leaves for another job with about a 96-96 record. Would this fan base call .500 after 10 years a good job ? I would call that mediocre. No one pays huge bucks for 10 years for .500 . Just once can we not have a top 25 power conference coach by results !
 



builtbadgers said:
There is no way you can assume multiple NCAA wins. The tourney is a crapshoot. Sure the Gophers had way too many injuries last year but the year before is just the average amount teams have and we did not win one. This year should be a great year but up until now there is nothing about 31-59 with very few marquee wins that is upward trajectory to me. Lets say in 5 years he has the record back to .500, leaves for another job with about a 96-96 record. Would this fan base call .500 after 10 years a good job ? I would call that mediocre. No one pays huge bucks for 10 years for .500 . Just once can we not have a top 25 power conference coach by results !
Click to expand...


Didnt assune ncaa wins, wrote most likely ncaa wins. Believe that is true.
What you write is fact. To me, however, we pmost likely would have had back to back seasons of big ten double byes and most likely multiple ncaa tourney wins without the crazy number of player losses. I think Pitino deserves much credit for this. To me, this, along with the potential of this year's team and the potential of our young players, is a persuasive argument that Pitino has us on an upward trajectory.
I believe this argument is more persuasive than the argument of Pitino's overall record for predicting success going forward. I know some will disagree with me, which is certainly fine. Just my opinion.
 

builtbadgers said:
There is no way you can assume multiple NCAA wins. The tourney is a crapshoot. Sure the Gophers had way too many injuries last year but the year before is just the average amount teams have and we did not win one. This year should be a great year but up until now there is nothing about 31-59 with very few marquee wins that is upward trajectory to me. Lets say in 5 years he has the record back to .500, leaves for another job with about a 96-96 record. Would this fan base call .500 after 10 years a good job ? I would call that mediocre. No one pays huge bucks for 10 years for .500 . Just once can we not have a top 25 power conference coach by results !
Click to expand...

You basically are saying that he has dug himself such a deep whole that he can never satisfy your requirements. He could win the B1G the next two years and would still suck because his overall record is not good enough. Do you see how ridiculous it is to keep holding his learning curve years in your judgment on if he is a good enough coach? If he bombs from now on, then he is in trouble, but give him credit if he takes this team to new heights.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Will give him huge props if he does something like win the conference more than once. If he does that, and contends the full 5 he could get above .500. Just sick of people acting like he has done a good job or that he is some highly regarded coach. Other Gopher coaches did better facing far more of a challenge. First in the congrats line in he can even finish ahead of UW one year. Will organize the line if he can win the conference. We are aiming for excellence here. Other programs hired coaches and built national powers. If he is great he has to build something meaningful, do it with class players, not the putrid record of 31-59 and the off the court trouble.
 

builtbadgers said:
Will give him huge props if he does something like win the conference more than once. If he does that, and contends the full 5 he could get above .500. Just sick of people acting like he has done a good job or that he is some highly regarded coach. Other Gopher coaches did better facing far more of a challenge. First in the congrats line in he can even finish ahead of UW one year. Will organize the line if he can win the conference. We are aiming for excellence here. Other programs hired coaches and built national powers. If he is great he has to build something meaningful, do it with class players, not the putrid record of 31-59 and the off the court trouble.
Click to expand...

So are you saying you'd be unhappy with multiple years like 2016-2017? Do you measure success by comference championships only? Seems like an extremely high bar. Maybe Ive been jaded by too many years of losing.
 

ltf said:
So are you saying you'd be unhappy with multiple years like 2016-2017? Do you measure success by comference championships only? Seems like an extremely high bar. Maybe Ive been jaded by too many years of losing.
Click to expand...

Great exchange, thanks. Usually in opinions someone simply resorts to a personal attack. You did not do that, says a great deal about the person you must be. No, i think you can be very successful by repeatedly being in the top 5 but also winning some championships. 2016-17 was a good year to me but way short of a great one as we never threatened the conference and we lacked big wins.
 

The U charged season ticket holders money for years 3 and 5, so yes, those years should absolutely "count" in any evaluation of Pitino's time here. Also, I have no interest in hearing about a "learning curve." This is a big ten head coaching job, not an unpaid internship. You dont make hires so guys can learn how to coach. At the end of the day, if the best Pitino ever accomplishes is making the tourney in half his years here with an occasional tournament win sprinkled in, he was a failed hire because we sat through the crap just to get back where we were. If he starts winning conference titles or getting us to sweet 16s, he was a successful hire and an upgrade. So long as he is here, I hope for the latter.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
The U charged season ticket holders money for years 3 and 5, so yes, those years should absolutely "count" in any evaluation of Pitino's time here. Also, I have no interest in hearing about a "learning curve." This is a big ten head coaching job, not an unpaid internship. You dont make hires so guys can learn how to coach. At the end of the day, if the best Pitino ever accomplishes is making the tourney in half his years here with an occasional tournament win sprinkled in, he was a failed hire because we sat through the crap just to get back where we were. If he starts winning conference titles or getting us to sweet 16s, he was a successful hire and an upgrade. So long as he is here, I hope for the latter.
Click to expand...

Well said.
 

builtbadgers said:
Great exchange, thanks. Usually in opinions someone simply resorts to a personal attack. You did not do that, says a great deal about the person you must be. No, i think you can be very successful by repeatedly being in the top 5 but also winning some championships. 2016-17 was a good year to me but way short of a great one as we never threatened the conference and we lacked big wins.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I know your posts are among the most anticipated on this board so it's interesting to get your perspectives. Think we can agree that the potential is there for a fun basketball season this year. Hopefully that is the case.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom