I'm glad the defense is better than when Kill was head coach

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37score

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Points per game allowed under Kill: 25.45

Points per game allowed under Fleck: 24.95
 

Kill Avg Points Allowed by year:

2011 - 31.7
2012 - 24.7
2013 - 23.0
2014 -23.4
2015 - 24.4
 

Add it's worse if you just look at years 1 and 2. What was the other thread titled? "Perspective".

People will say Fleck inherited a 9-4 team, but every season is new and apple and oranges. Anytime a new coach comes in expect the unexpected.
 

Are those numbers for all games, or just Big Ten games? Methinks the Big Ten numbers would not look good under the Fleck regime.
 

FredCoxRocks said:
Are those numbers for all games, or just Big Ten games? Methinks the Big Ten numbers would not look good under the Fleck regime.
Click to expand...

First two years of Big Ten

Fleck 13 games (32.53)
Kill 16 games (31.06)
 


Hilarious. Kill’s defense made a big jump vs Big Ten competition in year 2. PJ’s defense has fallen off a very steep cliff to 43.3 pts/game. Maybe the trend line flattens out or reverses but anyone with functional vision can see the differences in the trends. The 2012 defense was noticeably improving (and continued to improve during their tenure).
 

FredCoxRocks said:
Are those numbers for all games, or just Big Ten games? Methinks the Big Ten numbers would not look good under the Fleck regime.
Click to expand...

All games because all games matter.
If Fresno had dropped 70 on the Gophers would it be fair to pull that from that sample?
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Hilarious. Kill’s defense made a big jump vs Big Ten competition in year 2. PJ’s defense has fallen off a very steep cliff to 43.3 pts/game. Maybe the trend line flattens out or reverses but anyone with functional vision can see the differences in the trends. The 2012 defense was noticeably improving (and continued to improve during their tenure).
Click to expand...

If you consider giving up 6.5 more points a game in year two and the same 2-6 record a big jump...
 

Check Robb Smith's record as a DC:
Maine 3 years...ppg got worse every year (11.1 year 1....21.1 year 3)
Arkansas 3 years...ppg got worse every year (19.2 year 1....31.1 year 3)
Minnesota 1.5 years ....so far the trend continues (22.8 year 0... 28.57 year 1)

Thus, if this continues and we level off for this year, and keep his consistent record going, we'll be at 34ish next year. I hope to the Heavens his 10+ppg in 3 years doesn't happen again!

This is where the major concern is for me.

***I excluded year 2, but yes it was in between years 1 and 3 at bothe schools.
 
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If we excluded non-conference and wiped away Kill's embarrassing losses and only used Fleck's embarrassing losses, that wouldn't be fair now would it?
Why would we only choose bad games for one coach and not the other?
 

OddStack said:
Check Robb Smith's record as a DC:
Maine 3 years...ppg got worse every year
Arkansas 3 years...ppg got worse every year
Minnesota 1.5 years ....so far the trend continues (22.8 '17/ 28.57 '18)

This is where the major concern is for me.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is saying there isn't concern about Robb Smith.
But this idea that we are fair away from the standard set by Kill is blatantly false.
 

37score said:
I don't think anyone is saying there isn't concern about Robb Smith.
But this idea that we are fair away from the standard set by Kill is blatantly false.
Click to expand...

Did they get 5 points worse in any year? Looks to me they improved and leveled off to a consistent, fairly respectable level.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
If you consider giving up 6.5 more points a game in year two and the same 2-6 record a big jump...
Click to expand...

You may want to check your stats. If we are discussing scoring defense yes there was significant improvement in 2012 overall and vs Big Ten.
 



Big Ten Scoring is up since 2011. (So is all NCAA by over 2 points per game).


Big Ten Avg Points Scored Per Game:
2011: 26.90
2018: 29.67

So considering that increase, if we adjust, Fleck's defense looks even better by a wider margin.
 

37score said:
I don't think anyone is saying there isn't concern about Robb Smith.
But this idea that we are fair away from the standard set by Kill is blatantly false.
Click to expand...

The standard set by Kill was steady improvement despite meager talent. One can argue the coaches are helpless in the face of injuries, talent level, transfers, and their own decisions to not bring in more JUCOs on defense but one can not argue this 2018 shipwreck is “just like Kill”. It’s a ludicrous argument.
 

37score said:
Big Ten Scoring is up since 2011. (So is all NCAA by over 2 points per game).


Big Ten Avg Points Scored Per Game:
2011: 26.90
2018: 29.67

So considering that increase, if we adjust, Fleck's defense looks even better by a wider margin.
Click to expand...

The stink of Troll is strong in this one
 

Pompous Elitist said:
The standard set by Kill was steady improvement despite meager talent. One can argue the coaches are helpless in the face of injuries, talent level, transfers, and their own decisions to not bring in more JUCOs on defense but one can not argue this 2018 shipwreck is “just like Kill”. It’s a ludicrous argument.
Click to expand...


Steady improvement is also FALSE.

Points allowed per game with Kill as head coach

2011 - 31.6
2012 - 24.7
2013 - 23.0
2014 - 23.4
2015 - 24.4
 


Pompous Elitist said:
The standard set by Kill was steady improvement despite meager talent. One can argue the coaches are helpless in the face of injuries, talent level, transfers, and their own decisions to not bring in more JUCOs on defense but one can not argue this 2018 shipwreck is “just like Kill”. It’s a ludicrous argument.
Click to expand...
I'll agree with.meager talent but not steady improvement. Basically 24ppg over 4years. Steady but not getting better (or worse). At least it was serviceable.

The issue now is that the meager talent baseline has suffered from attrition at DL and DB which leaves the cupboard pretty bare.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 


WHB Brewer said:
I'll agree with.meager talent but not steady improvement. Basically 24ppg over 4years. Steady but not getting better (or worse). At least it was serviceable.

The issue now is that the meager talent baseline has suffered from attrition at DL and DB which leaves the cupboard pretty bare.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Who is in charge of ensuring depth?
 



37score said:
You are choosing to throw out Kill's most embarrassing losses which is skewing your data.
Click to expand...

No, I’m using actual numbers that include all the games. What’s embarrassing is the 2018 defense and this argument you’re making.
 

37score said:
Steady improvement is also FALSE.

Points allowed per game with Kill as head coach

2011 - 31.6
2012 - 24.7
2013 - 23.0
2014 - 23.4
2015 - 24.4
Click to expand...

Are you including non conference games in these numbers?
 

so, if Kill's defense gave up 100 points a game, does that make this year's defense better? No.

In my humble opinion, this is a deflection argument. People are complaining about the Gopher's defense, so the Fleck defenders have become the Fleck deflectors. "Oh, you think this year's defense is bad....well, it was just as bad under your hero Kill, so there!"

It doesn't matter how good or bad the defense was under Kill and Claeys. This year's team is this year's team. at the end of the year, the stats will go into the record book under 2018. And that record book will not have an asterisk that goes:
*youth and injuries
 

short ornery norwegian said:
so, if Kill's defense gave up 100 points a game, does that make this year's defense better? No.

In my humble opinion, this is a deflection argument. People are complaining about the Gopher's defense, so the Fleck defenders have become the Fleck deflectors. "Oh, you think this year's defense is bad....well, it was just as bad under your hero Kill, so there!"

It doesn't matter how good or bad the defense was under Kill and Claeys. This year's team is this year's team. at the end of the year, the stats will go into the record book under 2018. And that record book will not have an asterisk that goes:
*youth and injuries
Click to expand...

The defense isn't good.
Nor has it ever been at the U of M.
Scoring is up across the nation compared to when Kill was coach.

The story that this year is awful and Kill's teams' defense was glorious is weak.
 

OddStack said:
Check Robb Smith's record as a DC:
Maine 3 years...ppg got worse every year (11.1 year 1....21.1 year 3)
Arkansas 3 years...ppg got worse every year (19.2 year 1....31.1 year 3)
Minnesota 1.5 years ....so far the trend continues (22.8 year 0... 28.57 year 1)

Thus, if this continues and we level off for this year, and keep his consistent record going, we'll be at 34ish next year. I hope to the Heavens his 10+ppg in 3 years doesn't happen again!

This is where the major concern is for me.

***I excluded year 2, but yes it was in between years 1 and 3 at bothe schools.
Click to expand...

This.

This is exactly my original point. Robb Smith's record was dismal except for his first year at Arkansas with the previous DC's players.

I don't know if it is unimaginative zone defense or what you call it. His scheme opens the team up for big plays. One mistake and they are burned. Granted Antoine Winfield the team's leader in defense is out. But, for goodness sake he hasn't shown that he is able to adapt and "make lemonade out of lemons" with the team he has at hand.

I really miss the teaching of fundamentals like proper form tackling under Kill/Claeys.
 

Kill's defenses allowed 40+ points to big 10 teams 3 times in years 2-5. This year we have equaled that wonderful mark.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

short ornery norwegian said:
so, if Kill's defense gave up 100 points a game, does that make this year's defense better? No.

In my humble opinion, this is a deflection argument. People are complaining about the Gopher's defense, so the Fleck defenders have become the Fleck deflectors. "Oh, you think this year's defense is bad....well, it was just as bad under your hero Kill, so there!"

It doesn't matter how good or bad the defense was under Kill and Claeys. This year's team is this year's team. at the end of the year, the stats will go into the record book under 2018. And that record book will not have an asterisk that goes:
*youth and injuries
Click to expand...

From what I've seen both here and on social media, it's usually people who don't like Fleck that are saying things like Kill was never down 28-0 or that the defense under Kill was always so much better than what we're seeing now.

But you're right, regardless of what Kill did, this year's defense is bad and it's very disappointing.
 

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