JAKE’S TAKE: Patience is needed with PJ Fleck and Gophers football

BleedGopher

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per Jake:

In full disclosure, I understand the frustration, especially for those who lived during the golden age of Gopher football with the program accomplishing feats that today seem like a pipe-dream. By the same token, why should a coach be criticized for setting goals of that caliber, and how can one expect the team to reach that level of excellence in such a short amount of time with a historically young team?

In short, it’s time to loosen up the leash put on coach Fleck and give him some time to put it all together before calls for termination are made, and here’s why.

Best recruiting classes in years

When trying to evaluate the success of a coach at the collegiate level, near the very top should be their ability to recruit high-end players to their program in order to build for the future. In his two years here at the U of M, you would be hard-pressed to find a more successful coach not only in the Big Ten, but in the country at winning recruiting battles, as Fleck has elevated the quality of the recruiting classes with athletes that likely wouldn’t have even considered dawning the Maroon and Gold had it not been for Fleck.

To put it into perspective, the incoming Gopher recruiting class is currently ranked No. 31 (according to 24/7 sports) in the country – just one spot behind the Wisconsin Badgers – who have been a model of consistency among Big Ten teams. Prior to Fleck’s arrival, the Gophers have ranked as low as 63 in 2015, behind the likes of teams such as San Jose State University and Oregon State University.

Highest cumulative GPA in the history of the program

In a day and age where academic scandals are common place and the emphasis of the athlete portion of “student-athlete’ is the norm, Fleck has shattered the mold in preaching the importance of academic success and the results of such efforts speak for themselves. Case in point, the Gopher football team registered its highest cumulative G.P.A. in program history this past semester.

Proven track record of success

When comparing the resumes of past head football coaches at the University of Minnesota, the achievements made by Fleck during his time at Western Michigan University in guiding a relatively unknown program to an undefeated season and a trip to a Cotton Bowl put him head and shoulders above his predecessors.

However, these accomplishments didn’t happen overnight and took some time to develop, similar to what we’re seeing with the ongoing growing pains the Gophers have gone through during his two years at the helm.

In other words, let’s be patient. After all, what is one or two more years of mediocrity to a fanbase that has grown accustomed to it over the course of the last half-century, especially if it could lead to a much brighter future on the horizon.

http://www.marshallindependent.com/...is-needed-with-pj-fleck-and-gophers-football/

Go Gophers!!
 

2013%2F06%2F18%2F7c%2FBeaker.39ba8.gif
 

per Jake:

In full disclosure, I understand the frustration, especially for those who lived during the golden age of Gopher football with the program accomplishing feats that today seem like a pipe-dream. By the same token, why should a coach be criticized for setting goals of that caliber, and how can one expect the team to reach that level of excellence in such a short amount of time with a historically young team?

In short, it’s time to loosen up the leash put on coach Fleck and give him some time to put it all together before calls for termination are made, and here’s why.

Best recruiting classes in years

When trying to evaluate the success of a coach at the collegiate level, near the very top should be their ability to recruit high-end players to their program in order to build for the future. In his two years here at the U of M, you would be hard-pressed to find a more successful coach not only in the Big Ten, but in the country at winning recruiting battles, as Fleck has elevated the quality of the recruiting classes with athletes that likely wouldn’t have even considered dawning the Maroon and Gold had it not been for Fleck.

To put it into perspective, the incoming Gopher recruiting class is currently ranked No. 31 (according to 24/7 sports) in the country – just one spot behind the Wisconsin Badgers – who have been a model of consistency among Big Ten teams. Prior to Fleck’s arrival, the Gophers have ranked as low as 63 in 2015, behind the likes of teams such as San Jose State University and Oregon State University.

Highest cumulative GPA in the history of the program

In a day and age where academic scandals are common place and the emphasis of the athlete portion of “student-athlete’ is the norm, Fleck has shattered the mold in preaching the importance of academic success and the results of such efforts speak for themselves. Case in point, the Gopher football team registered its highest cumulative G.P.A. in program history this past semester.

Proven track record of success

When comparing the resumes of past head football coaches at the University of Minnesota, the achievements made by Fleck during his time at Western Michigan University in guiding a relatively unknown program to an undefeated season and a trip to a Cotton Bowl put him head and shoulders above his predecessors.

However, these accomplishments didn’t happen overnight and took some time to develop, similar to what we’re seeing with the ongoing growing pains the Gophers have gone through during his two years at the helm.

In other words, let’s be patient. After all, what is one or two more years of mediocrity to a fanbase that has grown accustomed to it over the course of the last half-century, especially if it could lead to a much brighter future on the horizon.

http://www.marshallindependent.com/...is-needed-with-pj-fleck-and-gophers-football/

Go Gophers!!


Finally someone who gets it.
 

per Jake:

In full disclosure, I understand the frustration, especially for those who lived during the golden age of Gopher football with the program accomplishing feats that today seem like a pipe-dream. By the same token, why should a coach be criticized for setting goals of that caliber, and how can one expect the team to reach that level of excellence in such a short amount of time with a historically young team?

In short, it’s time to loosen up the leash put on coach Fleck and give him some time to put it all together before calls for termination are made, and here’s why.

Best recruiting classes in years

When trying to evaluate the success of a coach at the collegiate level, near the very top should be their ability to recruit high-end players to their program in order to build for the future. In his two years here at the U of M, you would be hard-pressed to find a more successful coach not only in the Big Ten, but in the country at winning recruiting battles, as Fleck has elevated the quality of the recruiting classes with athletes that likely wouldn’t have even considered dawning the Maroon and Gold had it not been for Fleck.

To put it into perspective, the incoming Gopher recruiting class is currently ranked No. 31 (according to 24/7 sports) in the country – just one spot behind the Wisconsin Badgers – who have been a model of consistency among Big Ten teams. Prior to Fleck’s arrival, the Gophers have ranked as low as 63 in 2015, behind the likes of teams such as San Jose State University and Oregon State University.

Highest cumulative GPA in the history of the program

In a day and age where academic scandals are common place and the emphasis of the athlete portion of “student-athlete’ is the norm, Fleck has shattered the mold in preaching the importance of academic success and the results of such efforts speak for themselves. Case in point, the Gopher football team registered its highest cumulative G.P.A. in program history this past semester.

Proven track record of success

When comparing the resumes of past head football coaches at the University of Minnesota, the achievements made by Fleck during his time at Western Michigan University in guiding a relatively unknown program to an undefeated season and a trip to a Cotton Bowl put him head and shoulders above his predecessors.

However, these accomplishments didn’t happen overnight and took some time to develop, similar to what we’re seeing with the ongoing growing pains the Gophers have gone through during his two years at the helm.

In other words, let’s be patient. After all, what is one or two more years of mediocrity to a fanbase that has grown accustomed to it over the course of the last half-century, especially if it could lead to a much brighter future on the horizon.

http://www.marshallindependent.com/...is-needed-with-pj-fleck-and-gophers-football/

Go Gophers!!

I agree. Need to be patient. Changing coaches all the time doesn't work. We've found that out in both our football and basketball programs here. The program needs consistency. We all knew they were going to be bad last year and this year. Any time there is a coaching change this happens, at almost all universities.

He is recruiting better and that is great. The offense has actually looked more than competent to win some Big Ten games. Defense has been terrible. There might need to be some fixes, firing/hiring etc done there.

What I don't agree with you though is that his past success at Western Michigan means it will surely translate to being a good Big Ten coach. His recruiting likely won him games there. The Mac is the Mac. The Gopher team he has now would probably be close to undefeated in that league. Would that mean anything? I mean look what this team does to similar competition. Almost every year they are undefeated in non-conference play.
 

I don't see people screaming for his head. I see people saying we need to perform better on the field.
 



per Jake:

In full disclosure, I understand the frustration, especially for those who lived during the golden age of Gopher football with the program accomplishing feats that today seem like a pipe-dream. By the same token, why should a coach be criticized for setting goals of that caliber, and how can one expect the team to reach that level of excellence in such a short amount of time with a historically young team?

In short, it’s time to loosen up the leash put on coach Fleck and give him some time to put it all together before calls for termination are made, and here’s why.

Best recruiting classes in years

This is seeming more hollow as I wait to see real stars emerge from the recruiting classes. So far we have one or two bright spots (Faalele, Terrell Smith) some serviceable guys (Morgan, ZA, Ibrahim, Bateman, CAB, B. Williams) that doesn't seem like the we are on pace to fill out a football team with players and depth. Especially when we have a large block of talent and experience that will leave after next year.

Starting to think it's likely we will be hearing about how we are going to get even younger after the 2019 season. I'm praying PJ turns this around because the only thing worse than him faltering and failing is the thought of another 2-3 year turn around to get back to average before we can even expect to be good.
 

Last year's recruiting class was only good because he sold them on the future of the program. Eventually, if he doesn't produce result, that will stop working. He has some more time but if in 3 years the team still hasn't been to a bowl game, recruiting classes will take a big step back.

This year's recruiting class is skewed by how many recruits we have. Only 2 teams above us in the rankings have more commits than us. Wisconsin has 10 fewer commits than us and will jump up as their class fills up. If you go by average recruit ranking, we'd be around 50th. That's still better than recruiting under Kill and Claeys but is nothing to celebrate. It's still below average in the Big 10 and the Power 5. If we recruit below average and make in-game adjustments below average, we're going to be below average.

Fleck also only has a track record of success in the MAC. Just because you can do well in the MAC doesn't mean you can do well in the Big 10. Frank Lauterbur was wildly successful in the MAC and then only won 4 games in 3 years at Iowa. Things aren't that bad here but it's unreasonable to say that success in the MAC means he will have success here.

I don't think fans should be calling for him to be fired yet but I think it's fair to say that last season was disappointing, this season is headed in a disappointing direction, and that changes need to be made before next season. Particularly finding a better DC and getting more creative on offense. Last season and this season so far aren't particularly concerning but if there aren't significant changes before next season, that will be. Western Michigan was good enough and playing bad enough teams that they could win even without solid defensive schemes and offensive playcalling. We aren't good enough and will never play bad enough teams for that to be true.
 




Last year's recruiting class was only good because he sold them on the future of the program. Eventually, if he doesn't produce result, that will stop working. He has some more time but if in 3 years the team still hasn't been to a bowl game, recruiting classes will take a big step back.

This year's recruiting class is skewed by how many recruits we have. Only 2 teams above us in the rankings have more commits than us. Wisconsin has 10 fewer commits than us and will jump up as their class fills up. If you go by average recruit ranking, we'd be around 50th. That's still better than recruiting under Kill and Claeys but is nothing to celebrate. It's still below average in the Big 10 and the Power 5. If we recruit below average and make in-game adjustments below average, we're going to be below average.

Fleck also only has a track record of success in the MAC. Just because you can do well in the MAC doesn't mean you can do well in the Big 10. Frank Lauterbur was wildly successful in the MAC and then only won 4 games in 3 years at Iowa. Things aren't that bad here but it's unreasonable to say that success in the MAC means he will have success here.

I don't think fans should be calling for him to be fired yet but I think it's fair to say that last season was disappointing, this season is headed in a disappointing direction, and that changes need to be made before next season. Particularly finding a better DC and getting more creative on offense. Last season and this season so far aren't particularly concerning but if there aren't significant changes before next season, that will be. Western Michigan was good enough and playing bad enough teams that they could win even without solid defensive schemes and offensive playcalling. We aren't good enough and will never play bad enough teams for that to be true.

You nailed it, especially about the narrowing recruitment window if we don't start winning.

I'm not fully on board (yet) with the "changes need to be made before next season" regarding the DC, but that could change.

JTG
 

per Jake:

In full disclosure, I understand the frustration, especially for those who lived during the golden age of Gopher football with the program accomplishing feats that today seem like a pipe-dream. By the same token, why should a coach be criticized for setting goals of that caliber, and how can one expect the team to reach that level of excellence in such a short amount of time with a historically young team?

In short, it’s time to loosen up the leash put on coach Fleck and give him some time to put it all together before calls for termination are made, and here’s why.

Best recruiting classes in years

When trying to evaluate the success of a coach at the collegiate level, near the very top should be their ability to recruit high-end players to their program in order to build for the future. In his two years here at the U of M, you would be hard-pressed to find a more successful coach not only in the Big Ten, but in the country at winning recruiting battles, as Fleck has elevated the quality of the recruiting classes with athletes that likely wouldn’t have even considered dawning the Maroon and Gold had it not been for Fleck.

To put it into perspective, the incoming Gopher recruiting class is currently ranked No. 31 (according to 24/7 sports) in the country – just one spot behind the Wisconsin Badgers – who have been a model of consistency among Big Ten teams. Prior to Fleck’s arrival, the Gophers have ranked as low as 63 in 2015, behind the likes of teams such as San Jose State University and Oregon State University.

Highest cumulative GPA in the history of the program

In a day and age where academic scandals are common place and the emphasis of the athlete portion of “student-athlete’ is the norm, Fleck has shattered the mold in preaching the importance of academic success and the results of such efforts speak for themselves. Case in point, the Gopher football team registered its highest cumulative G.P.A. in program history this past semester.

Proven track record of success

When comparing the resumes of past head football coaches at the University of Minnesota, the achievements made by Fleck during his time at Western Michigan University in guiding a relatively unknown program to an undefeated season and a trip to a Cotton Bowl put him head and shoulders above his predecessors.

However, these accomplishments didn’t happen overnight and took some time to develop, similar to what we’re seeing with the ongoing growing pains the Gophers have gone through during his two years at the helm.

In other words, let’s be patient. After all, what is one or two more years of mediocrity to a fanbase that has grown accustomed to it over the course of the last half-century, especially if it could lead to a much brighter future on the horizon.

http://www.marshallindependent.com/...is-needed-with-pj-fleck-and-gophers-football/

Go Gophers!!
Leash? LEASH?? What leash? Come on, Jake, lay off the BC bud, this ain't Canada.
Fleck got a year zero pass. He got to put beaver tails on our helmets and call them oars. He has been unleashed for two years. Give me a break.
 

the question is really one of expectations.

What constitutes fair expectations for a Gopher FB coach?

As I see it, the Gophers under Kill and Claeys basically got the program back to Mason-era levels - winning 7 or 8 games most years and going to a low/mid-level bowl game. Many people, including several on this board, say that wasn't good enough - that the Gophers should not be satisfied until they are contending for Division titles, Conference titles and/or even national playoffs.

if that is truly the expectation for Fleck - that he should be able to take the program to a higher level than Mason, Kill or Claeys (yeah, I skipped Brewster....), then the next question becomes - how long do we give Fleck to meet those expectations?

5 years - 10 years - 15 years? I don't know the answer.

I don't expect miracles. I just want to see some progress. Kill and Claeys weren't perfect, but their teams were generally competitive. You could go into most games thinking the Gophers at least had a chance to win.

Fleck won 5 games last year. It's looking like 5 or maybe 6 wins this year. still a ways to go to match the best of Mason, Kill and Claeys - and a longer ways to go to improve on Mason, Kill and Claeys.
 

As I see it, the Gophers under Kill and Claeys basically got the program back to Mason-era levels - winning 7 or 8 games most years and going to a low/mid-level bowl game. Many people, including several on this board, say that wasn't good enough - that the Gophers should not be satisfied until they are contending for Division titles, Conference titles and/or even national playoffs.

if that is truly the expectation for Fleck - that he should be able to take the program to a higher level than Mason, Kill or Claeys (yeah, I skipped Brewster....), then the next question becomes - how long do we give Fleck to meet those expectations?

I think that's the heart of the matter. Yes, Fleck was hired to take the program places it hasn't been in 50 years. Obviously, the AD believed Fleck's style was just what needed. Unfortunately, that style will get old (and lose its effectiveness with recruits) awful quick without wins. Things need to be on the upswing next year, with more progress to follow.

JTG
 



the question is really one of expectations.

What constitutes fair expectations for a Gopher FB coach?

As I see it, the Gophers under Kill and Claeys basically got the program back to Mason-era levels - winning 7 or 8 games most years and going to a low/mid-level bowl game. Many people, including several on this board, say that wasn't good enough - that the Gophers should not be satisfied until they are contending for Division titles, Conference titles and/or even national playoffs.

if that is truly the expectation for Fleck - that he should be able to take the program to a higher level than Mason, Kill or Claeys (yeah, I skipped Brewster....), then the next question becomes - how long do we give Fleck to meet those expectations?

5 years - 10 years - 15 years? I don't know the answer.

I don't expect miracles. I just want to see some progress. Kill and Claeys weren't perfect, but their teams were generally competitive. You could go into most games thinking the Gophers at least had a chance to win.

Fleck won 5 games last year. It's looking like 5 or maybe 6 wins this year. still a ways to go to match the best of Mason, Kill and Claeys - and a longer ways to go to improve on Mason, Kill and Claeys.


Making assumptions by coupling Kill and Claeys together.

Let's be clear.

Kill as head coach is different than Claeys as head coach.
I think very few felt Kill (other than Jim Souhan) should have been fired, questions his ability to coach, questioned his ability as head coach. I'm sure there might have been a random idiot or two, but I think 90% of Gopher fans were disappointed when Kill had to retire.
 

per Jake:

In short, it’s time to loosen up the leash put on coach Fleck and give him some time to put it all together before calls for termination are made, and here’s why.

Best recruiting classes in years - Factual, but I would hardly say 43rd (Rivals) and 38th (247) are really statistically significant from the 2016 class that was 50th and 46th respectively


Highest cumulative GPA in the history of the program - With players from three recruting classes he was not involved in. This will be fully relevant in three years.


Proven track record of success - IN THE MAC! What success has he shown in the Big Ten? What signature win in the first two (or is it one?) years?

Why does Phillip John need to continually be defended? It does not seem that it is impossible to show improvement (with lesser recruiting classes) by Jeff Brohm at Purdue. Show me something on the field!
 


I don't want to pile on Fleck. I want him to succeed. I still feel it is possible for him to succeed. The best thing he has going for him is basically every thing he said on day one through year "0" has been true. In that regard, possibly we should be believing him about being really good in 2020 and showing improvement next season. I'm still holding out hope for that and I still back him.

However, my confidence is a bit shaken. It is shaken because for everything to work he will have to be a revolutionary coach at a very young age (not impossible, but perhaps unlikely). Conventional wisdom says that good coaches field teams that might be bad at first but show improvement and eventually get to be pretty good after building on that improvement. This team has the look of a team that, like last season, will be worse on December 1 than it was on September 1. THAT, has a hard time passing the smell test when compared to other coaches that the test of time has revealed to be really good.

I'd be a lot more confident if the team had shown immediate improvement last year, and shocked the world by blowing out Ohio State last week. That narrative just fits better within the existing mold of good coaches.
 

I don't want to pile on Fleck. I want him to succeed. I still feel it is possible for him to succeed. The best thing he has going for him is basically every thing he said on day one through year "0" has been true. In that regard, possibly we should be believing him about being really good in 2020 and showing improvement next season. I'm still holding out hope for that and I still back him.

However, my confidence is a bit shaken. It is shaken because for everything to work he will have to be a revolutionary coach at a very young age (not impossible, but perhaps unlikely). Conventional wisdom says that good coaches field teams that might be bad at first but show improvement and eventually get to be pretty good after building on that improvement. This team has the look of a team that, like last season, will be worse on December 1 than it was on September 1. THAT, has a hard time passing the smell test when compared to other coaches that the test of time has revealed to be really good.

I'd be a lot more confident if the team had shown immediate improvement last year, and shocked the world by blowing out Ohio State last week. That narrative just fits better within the existing mold of good coaches.


Could it happen that by the end of the season, the team might play worse, but the individuals playing might be better?

I'll be more confident if Coney Durr makes tackles in the coming weeks.
 

Last year's recruiting class was only good because he sold them on the future of the program. Eventually, if he doesn't produce result, that will stop working. He has some more time but if in 3 years the team still hasn't been to a bowl game, recruiting classes will take a big step back.

That is pretty much it in a nutshell. All for the hire and I am fine with all the mottos and gimmicks even though some of it is pretty eye-rolling. He's got to motivate 20 year olds and not some old guy remembering the days of Bobby Bell. However, at some point those 20 year olds are going to think, "Why in the hell am I sprinting to the other end of the field when we're getting our asses kicked again?" Pretty sure it hasn't happened yet, but it won't be only recruiting that will suffer. If Indiana reels off numerous long touchdowns like Maryland and Nebraska tomorrow, then we're entering the danger zone.
 

per Jake:

In short, it’s time to loosen up the leash put on coach Fleck and give him some time to put it all together before calls for termination are made, and here’s why.

Best recruiting classes in years - Factual, but I would hardly say 43rd (Rivals) and 38th (247) are really statistically significant from the 2016 class that was 50th and 46th respectively


Highest cumulative GPA in the history of the program - With players from three recruting classes he was not involved in. This will be fully relevant in three years.


Proven track record of success - IN THE MAC! What success has he shown in the Big Ten? What signature win in the first two (or is it one?) years?

Why does Phillip John need to continually be defended? It does not seem that it is impossible to show improvement (with lesser recruiting classes) by Jeff Brohm at Purdue. Show me something on the field!

While I agree with much of what you said you have to support PJ and his process. It's 2 years in! He has a number of young guys playing now who very likely be pretty darn good players. You saw it with Winfield, you saw it with Coughlin. There are a number of young guys like Falale, Smith, And Bateman who are going to be really good. I personally thought Brohm was a better hire because I like his cerebral approach but he was already gone. Gophers got probably the best possible young gun they could. I think we have to give him time. I'm not okay with the excuses and I'm not a fan of Robb Smith but he was a good calculated gamble for a young up and comer. He may bomb as many have came from the Mac and done so but I'm fine with seeing where this goes over the next 2-3 years.
 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Despite what many say about "nobody calling for his head," there's a percentage of fans who think Fleck is full of crap, Brewster 2.0, is failing miserably, and will never succeed. While they may not be posting, "Fire Fleck" that's simply because they're hedging their bets.

OTOH, there are some who believe 100% that MN got the best young coach in America, that he's got a plan, he's taken recruiting to another level (even if stars don't reflect it all the time), and that we'll be in a NYD bowl in 2020.

Most people are firmly in the middle. They think Fleck has made some mistakes, but they see flashes of a special leader. They don't believe in certain schemes or coordinators, but they see better talent at certain positions. They tire of Fleck's slogans, but they admire his passion and hard work. They wonder if things would've been better right now under Claeys, but they acknowledge there's no way of knowing that and Fleck might have been the better long-term choice (or not).

The problem is the loudest voices are on one extreme end or the other -- just like in politics and the office.
 

Fleck has been here 2 years. Great recruiting classes?


The following players are the core of the defense and none are Fleck recruits:

Jacob Huff
Winfield
Devers
Durr
Julian Huff
Martin
Sherrault
Cashman
Coughlin
Moore
Olson
Renner
DeLattboudere
Barber


Fleck says his defense is young. These are all upper class men.
Looks like he is mainly playing Claeys recruits.
 

About the proven success............The MAC has more parity than the P5 schools.

Since 2008, 10 football seasons, the MAC has had 7 different champions. Northern Ill. has 3, Bowling Green has 2 and and 5 other schools have 1 each.
Furthermore, Eastern Michigan is the ONLY team that hasn't played for the title during that time.

Thus, MAC success is fine, but it's hardly an indicator of knowing how to turn a program and succeed at a P5 , based on it appears every school but 1 has figured out how to do it.
 
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About the proven success............The MAC has more parity than the P5 schools.

Since 2008, 10 football seasons, the MAC has had 7 different champions. Northern Ill. has 3, Bowling Green has 2 and and 5 other schools have 1 each.
Furthermore, Eastern Michigan is the ONLY team that hasn't played for the title during that time.

Thus, MAC success is fine, but it's hardly an indicator of knowing how to turn a program and succeed at a P5 since it appears every school but 1 has figured out how to do it.

Well done, thanks. I'm sure Coyle knew all this when he made the offer...:rolleyes:
 




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