Perspective

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homermn said:
Not really rant just a meta analysis of the data on Massey rankings.

Thank you for proving my point.

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If I've proved your point, then that must be because of one of the following:

1) Your writing is so bad that I didn't understand your original point;

2) You're like Donald Trump. Even when you lose you think you've won.
 

My perspective at this point is that Fleck is like the coaches before him. Good on one side of the ball. Fleck will have to decide if he can get it done on the defensive side of the ball. Year three will be huge.
 

Fleck did say they would get worse before they got better. Not an the initial press conference but he has said it.

Some obviously didn’t want to hear it.



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cjbfbp said:
I think you should do a little research before doing your rants. 2015 was the worst year (record wise) after the first year of Kill/Claeys regime as the team only went 5-7. However, the Gophers had to play #4 Ohio State, #7 TCU, #9 Iowa, #12 Michigan, #21 Wisconsin, and #23 Northwestern that year. So we lost to 6 ranked teams and Nebraska that year. Since your punctuation and clarity aren't very good, I'm not sure of the real meaning of that last clause but the team won 6 games in 2012 (granted 4 of those were nonconference) and lost the bowl game by a field goal and the 2013 team went 8-4 and had a lead before losing a close one in the final minutes of the bowl game.
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Speaking of that 2015 Nebraska loss, that was a 23 point blowout, AT HOME, to a Nebraska team that only won 5 regular season games in Mike Riley's first season. Final score was 48-25, and that was year 5 of the Kill/Claeys/Sawvel defensive regime.

But for some to keep saying days similar to yesterday weren't happening under the previous defensive staff, is completely false.

Yesterday's defensive effort was unacceptable, and fans should be upset. There is enough talent on this defense to prevent record breaking days like yesterday.

However, Fleck inherited very thin DL and DB groups, and he continues to build those positions up. It takes time. I'll remain patient because I see the promise in the recruits he's already brought it, especially on offense. I have questions about Robb Smith, but this rebuild has been ongoing for 50 years. I'll continue to remain patient because I think Fleck is still the guy who can turn this program around.
 

scools12 said:
Fleck did say they would get worse before they got better. Not an the initial press conference but he has said it.

Some obviously didn’t want to hear it.



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This is true. He said 2020 is his year to be elite. That's why I'm not buying a ticket until 2020.
 


scools12 said:
I would guess those that have already decided Fleck can’t get it done here had decided after Brewster’s 7-1 start in his 2nd season he should be given a lifetime contract.


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That would be a terrible guess.

Unless your point is nobody thinks that Fleck "can't get it done" 'cuz nobody was saying that after Brewster's 7-1 start. The vast majority of Gopher fans, probably even many of the "we support the Gopher's Had Coach whoever he is" fans, had written Brewster off after his first year. Which ended with that disaster of a loss against Iowa.

Best anybody was saying after that 7-1 start was "hey, maybe Brewster's not going to be so awful after all!"

Even those optimists were wrong.

What's really sad is the people who keep bringing up Brewster's name. Either to make a comparison to Fleck, or to somehow defend him.

He's gone. Period.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Speaking of that 2015 Nebraska loss, that was a 23 point blowout, AT HOME, to a Nebraska team that only won 5 regular season games in Mike Riley's first season. Final score was 48-25, and that was year 5 of the Kill/Claeys/Sawvel defensive regime.
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Well, we gave up about 200 fewer yards in that game but we also had 3 turnovers. And this Nebraska team isn't likely to win even 5 games. Yes, we suffered a 23 point loss in the 5th year of a coaching regime but our best effort in the conference this year so far is a 16 point loss. Blowout losses this year are the norm, not the exception. In that 2015 year, we had only two blowout losses despite playing a very tough schedule.
 

Iceland12 said:
What's really sad is the people who keep bringing up Brewster's name. Either to make a comparison to Fleck, or to somehow defend him.
He's gone. Period.
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Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it. In the case of Fleck and Brewster, it is the most apt comparison to make. Frankly, I think Brewster was a failure because he was complete in over his head and simply didn't know what he didn't know, or lacked the connections to make things happen. I think Brewster could have been a decent coach if he had a decent set of assistant coaches ready and willing to go day one - I think Brewster getting the job was a surprise to him too.

Brewster inherited decent talent but his player development was not up to par because his time was stretched too thin trying to do things that his assistants should have been doing - like recruiting heavy out of state. Then, he seemed to take the position of trading low character/low academics (low chance of matriculation and staying eligible) for higher recruiting star ratings. That didn't work out in terms of talent on the field - maybe he was bad at evaluating talent (seems doubtful given his track record) or because the admin of the U was not willing to look the other way academically, etc s his players could remain in school unlike the other schools where he coached - this seems more likely to me.

Why this matters with Fleck is that he is, admittedly, not and X's and O's guy. So, he also needs to heavily rely on his assistants. Much like Kill in this respect. Fleck was the recruiter and motivator (Brewster 2.0). Where I think this went off the rails for us is Fleck not bring his staff with him intact. I think we would be having more success now if he did. I think Fleck's ego is too big to the point where he gives himself all the credit for his MAC success and none to his assistants. If not, why did they not him here? The money was there. They know each other, etc. So, either Fleck's ego was too big thinking that he didn't need them or the assistants didn't like/respect Fleck so they were not willing to come. Neither of these is a good sign.

So, that brings us full circle to Fleck being Brewster 2.0. Yes, Fleck has experience actually running all facets of a college football team, which Brewster lacked. However, his shtick is exactly the same - recruit and motivate. My guess is that on-field results like last year and this year are going to put a huge dent in recruiting, so then we are left with motivating and hopefully picking competent assistants that can actually gameplan - so, exactly like Brewster 2.0. For a program like the U in the modern era (1990-present), I think this is a blueprint for failure. We need a coach that can scheme (which is why people wanted Leach or even TC) or one that can recruit marginal talent and coach them up in his system - like Mason.

The last 2 seasons were entirely of our own making. Too many ego all the way around in the U admin. Heck, I would even state that had Trump become president 4 years soon and issued the current Title IX advisory on sexual assault investigation process, TC would still be here - literally all he did was support his players (wanted actual due process). TC has forgotten more about X's and O's than Fleck has learned thus far in his coaching career - and the on field results speak for themselves.
 

homermn said:
Don't overlook the comment below...

In 1.5 years PJ has maintained the ceiling that Kill/Claeys left him.

For all the vile being thrown around around the failure that is PJ. I have yet to see anyone reference the complete collapse of 2015 that Kill/Claeys oversaw.

2014 and 2016 were our best years in that regime, but even those years we sat around 49th and 50th among FBS teams. 2011, 2013, and 2015 were either horrendous or bad. I have nothing but thanks and respect for both men, they took us to from a bottom feeder in all of football and left us as a great Group of 5 team. But, that's just it - it was a power group of 5 team.

PJ hasn't shown us any improvement other than he can play the non-conference schedule at an Elite level and out recruit when compared to 2011-2016. But he hasn't shown any ability to find a way to win the toss-up games, and yesterday [/B]was a toss-up game[/B], in a way Kill and Claeys could. They had the ability to contain Big Ten teams and squeeze out wins. I do miss that because we would have won yesterday had we held Neb to less than 400 yards.

In 1.5 years PJ has maintained the ceiling that Kill/Claeys left him, Is it trending in any ugly direction... oh yeah, but even throwing out 2011 the 2012, 2013, and 2015 were comparatively worse than last season, and up to this point, this season.
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losing a toss-up game by 25 points should be the first hint that there is a problem. Losing by 25 is not a toss up game. It's a blow out.
 



caliGopher said:
losing a toss-up game by 25 points should be the first hint that there is a problem. Losing by 25 is not a toss up game. It's a blow out.
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I honestly don't know how anyone can argue that not going to even a meaningless bowl 2 years in a row is maintaining the ceiling. Now, we could still get bowl eligible but I think most rational people know the odds of that are probably 5-10% at best. It has been years since we were only mid-season and we were confident that a bowl was out of the question. That is a huge step back. I think someone said it well a few days back - outside of the TC metro area, there is totally and complete apathy towards the football program. My friends from Madison don't even feel sorry for Gopher fans anymore - we are just irrelevant.
 

Not sure where it started, but Fleck brought a lot of people with him from WMU.

This is from a KARE 11 article talking about Fleck's first staff at Minnesota.

Here are the guys that had worked with Fleck before he came here.

- Ciarrocca came to Minnesota after serving as the offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach at Western Michigan since 2013.

- Burns came to Minnesota after spending one season coaching the running backs at Western Michigan.

- Callahan was a veteran coach. He came to coach the tight ends at Minnesota as well as coach the offensive tackles. He had coached the offensive line at Western Michigan since 2013

- Simon (wide receivers) coached receivers at Western Michigan since 2014.

- Smith (defensive coordinator) was not at WMU, but he worked previously with Fleck at Rutgers.

- Wenger (special teams coordinator) was hired at Western Michigan in 2013 as a graduate assistant, but was quickly promoted to special teams coordinator.

- Chernoff (General Manager) came to oversee all off-field aspects of the program at Minnesota. He joined the Western Michigan staff in March 2016 as director of player personnel after spending five years in the same role at Iowa State.

- Nichol (head strength and conditioning coach) previously held the same position at Western Michigan since 2013.

- Hendrickson (director of player personnel) joined the Gophers from Western Michigan. He also served as a college scout for the Miami Dolphins and Cleveland Browns

- Childers (director of video) was named video coordinator at Western Michigan at the conclusion of the 2013 season. He worked at his alma mater, Idaho, as the video services coordinator from 2011-13.

The ones who were new to Flack?

Warinner (offensive line) joined Fleck’s staff after serving as the offensive coordinator and tight ends coach at Ohio State in 2016. Linguist (defensive backs) coached the safeties at Mississippi State in 2016. Paup (defensive line) who was a former NFL Defensive Player of the Year with the Buffalo Bills and spent the last four seasons at his alma mater Northern Iowa coaching the defensive line

https://www.kare11.com/article/sports/college/ncaa/fleck-fills-out-u-of-m-coaching-staff/387024799
 

Fair Weather Fan

csom_1991 said:
I honestly don't know how anyone can argue that not going to even a meaningless bowl 2 years in a row is maintaining the ceiling. Now, we could still get bowl eligible but I think most rational people know the odds of that are probably 5-10% at best. It has been years since we were only mid-season and we were confident that a bowl was out of the question. That is a huge step back. I think someone said it well a few days back - outside of the TC metro area, there is totally and complete apathy towards the football program. My friends from Madison don't even feel sorry for Gopher fans anymore - we are just irrelevant.
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Mr. Fair weather fan, I dare you to state that to the Gopher players to their face! You have courage on the internet. Big man!
 

So one quick question. Many have said that Fleck is not an X and O coach...did he himself say that? I only ask because he played a few years in the NFL and also position coached for a number of years. Surely he has to have a good amount of X and O knowledge to be able to do that or is that not the case? I have no idea as I haven't gotten past coaching anything past the 7th grade football and basketball LOL.
 



Uffda said:
Mr. Fair weather fan, I dare you to state that to the Gopher players to their face! You have courage on the internet. Big man!
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How do you call anyone who follows this team still, fair weather at this point?
 

I think everyone agrees on three years, but if your first two years suck, you definitely are coaching for your job in year three.

Remember:

Brewster took us to bowl games in years 2 AND 3, then got the can halfway through a bad year four.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/coaches/tim-brewster-1.html

If Fleck doesn't get 6 wins next year, he MUST be out. I don't want to see him get a longer leash just because he's a handsome and hip guy or because we have so much ego investment in him as a program/fan base.
 
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Uffda said:
Mr. Fair weather fan, I dare you to state that to the Gopher players to their face! You have courage on the internet. Big man!
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Dare to tell them what, exactly?

1.) not going to even a meaningless bowl 2 years in a row is maintaining the ceiling? - I think they will agree not making a bowl when bowl season has been so watered down for 2 years in a row is a giant step back.

2.) rational people know the odds of that are probably 5-10% at best (of making a bowl) - sorry, this is an accurate statement

3.) It has been years since we were only mid-season and we were confident that a bowl was out of the question - we are 7 games in and I can confidently state the was ain't going bowling this year...been a long time since I could say that

4.) Outside of the TC metro area, there is totally and complete apathy towards the football program. - again, an accurate statement

5.) My friends from Madison don't even feel sorry for Gopher fans anymore - we are just irrelevant. - the Badgers have moved on to bigger and better things. They look at the game vs. us as an automatic win - and it has been for around a decade. They look to OSU and Michigan as rivals now, not us.

As to fair weather, I was not born in Minnesota. I became a Gopher fan when I went to the U and have been since. I have suffered through a lot of terrible teams across all the major sports since I left the school. But, I don't wear cheering for a program like ours as some kind of merit badge for losers to gain sympathy from others as some long suffering goof. I want the team to win.
 

NotAFanOfBecky said:
So one quick question. Many have said that Fleck is not an X and O coach...did he himself say that? I only ask because he played a few years in the NFL and also position coached for a number of years. Surely he has to have a good amount of X and O knowledge to be able to do that or is that not the case? I have no idea as I haven't gotten past coaching anything past the 7th grade football and basketball LOL.
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I am curious about this as well.... What the context was around this when he said it. Maybe that he needs to be more of a progra leader instead of being mired in details that his coaches should handle.

There is nothing about him so far that makes me think his playing and coaching experience didnt teach him some level of x's and o's.
 

cjbfbp said:
I think you should do a little research before doing your rants. 2015 was the worst year (record wise) after the first year of Kill/Claeys regime as the team only went 5-7. However, the Gophers had to play #4 Ohio State, #7 TCU, #9 Iowa, #12 Michigan, #21 Wisconsin, and #23 Northwestern that year. So we lost to 6 ranked teams and Nebraska that year. Since your punctuation and clarity aren't very good, I'm not sure of the real meaning of that last clause but the team won 6 games in 2012 (granted 4 of those were nonconference) and lost the bowl game by a field goal and the 2013 team went 8-4 and had a lead before losing a close one in the final minutes of the bowl game.
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Good analysis, that 2015 team played some football, when the Gophers get back to that level of play I will watch again.
 

bfast said:
I think everyone agrees on three years, but if your first two years suck, you definitely are coaching for your job in year three.

Remember:

Brewster took us to bowl games in years 2 AND 3, then got the can halfway through a bad year four.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/coaches/tim-brewster-1.html

If Fleck doesn't get 6 wins next year, he MUST be out. I don't want to see him get a longer leash just because he's a handsome and hip guy or because we have so much ego investment in him as a program/fan base.
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Is Fleck’s second year that different from Kill’s second year so far. Kill won 4 non conference games and two big ten games. I still think this team has a chance at a couple of big ten wins if the defense can figure out some things.
Hopefully this Nebraska disaster will be the low point defensively for the season.
I would argue that Fleck and Ciarocca have the offense on a better trajectory than Kill ever did. Just need to get that defense straightened out.
 

EG#9 said:
After a thoroughly disappointing day capped by Purdue rendering last weeks "feel good" moment meaningless by taking Ohio State out in a huge upset, I was curious to see when Gopher fans last had an opportunity to storm the field. Literally every program seems to at least luck in to a huge upset every once in awhile...right? Well, I went back through the records as I knew the Gophers had no such opportunity in their decade at TCF and would you believe there was never an opportunity at the Metrodome either? The Gophers are on their second STADIUM of time without a home win over a big time opponent. How about this? Since the year 2000, the Gophers have just TWO wins against teams ranked in the TOP 20: once at Ohio State in 2000 and again in 2005 over a Purdue team that turned out to be terrible (5-6 overall). Do you realize the Gophers have not won in Iowa City (not Columbus....Iowa City!) since 1999? I am sure everyone is aware by now that the Gophers have not finished in the top 3 of the conference nor defeated a team that would go on to finish in the top 3 of conference in more than 20 years.

Some posters wish Jerry Kill was the coach. Jerry Kill started out 2-6 and 2-6 in conference play in his first two years. Of those 12 conference losses, 10 were by more than 2 touchdowns. He also lost to New Mexico State, North Dakota State, and needed triple overtime to defeat a UNLV team that would finish the year 2-11 in those first two years. The high point of his tenure was a fantastic win at Nebraska and that came in his 4th season. He's credited with a 14-21 conference record at Minnesota. West divison (not conference, just division) finishes were 6th, tied 5th, 4th, tied 2nd, tied 4th. Never beat Wisconsin, losing record against Iowa.

Some people still bring up Glen Mason for some reason. Depressingly, Glen Mason had the exact same conference winning percentage as Jerry Kill (40). He had a decade to show that he could at least occasionally contend for a conference title. During his tenure only the Gophers and Indiana failed to finish 3rd or better in the conference standings at least once. Losing records against Iowa and Wisconsin and the gap was widening as his tenure lengthened.

I can hear people now saying "forty percent sure sounds a lot better than the fifteen percent Mr Row The Boat is at". It certainly is, and if all you aspire to is winning forty percent of the games then I guess this post isn't for you. But also keep in mind that Mason's first two seasons were 1-7 and 2-6 in conference play and as previously mentioned Kill went 2-6 and 2-6. So even if forty percent is acceptable to you, recent Gopher history suggest Fleck isn't far off from the trajectory of those who "achieved" that.

Nebraska was a complete disaster and I've seen more than enough of Robb Smith's defense, but Fleck is less than two years removed from being considered one of the top up and coming coaches in the nation. Given Gopher history does it make sense to mock him when he's lost arguably his best player on both sides of the ball to injury? Is it really any surprise that Gopher football is bad in a year where they are starting a true Freshman QB and between 4-6 other Freshman on offense? I can't remember another year where the Gophers, or any team, has lost their two best players (I am sure it's happened somewhere), but I can remember a lot of years where the Gophers were just as bad as they have been this year.

I don't know if Fleck is the guy, I hope he is but after years and years of disappointment as a Gopher fan (I really feel for those of you 40 plus fans that have experienced even more and especially those of you who travel to watch this team year after year) it's tough to believe. But that's not Fleck's fault, it's the fault of those that came before him. He deserves more than 1.5 years to turn around 50 years of failure. Nebraska sucked today and relevance feels a long way away right now, but does it feel further away than when we were losing 45-17 to Purdue in 2011? It probably doesn't, we've just all tried to erase that memory.
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After a depressing weekend, finally some perspective that helps cheer me up (quicker than vodka). Thank you.
 

WorkingMyTailOff said:
Is Fleck’s second year that different from Kill’s second year so far. Kill won 4 non conference games and two big ten games. I still think this team has a chance at a couple of big ten wins if the defense can figure out some things.
Hopefully this Nebraska disaster will be the low point defensively for the season.
I would argue that Fleck and Ciarocca have the offense on a better trajectory than Kill ever did. Just need to get that defense straightened out.
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They have the offense on a different trajectory, mixing in the run and the pass while Kill/Claeys were a more ball control run game offense.
The defense, on the other hand, of Fleck and Smith is far inferior and on a worse trajectory than what Kill/Claeys ever showed. That is the troubling thing as we don't play in the Big 12.
 

GFBfan said:
They have the offense on a different trajectory, mixing in the run and the pass while Kill/Claeys were a more ball control run game offense.
The defense, on the other hand, of Fleck and Smith is far inferior and on a worse trajectory than what Kill/Claeys ever showed. That is the troubling thing as we don't play in the Big 12.
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Completely agree. Smith has five weeks to show something and it better be a drastic improvement or I would think he is out.
 

Awul depressing. Still not ready to give up on Fleck though. I say ride him for another handful of years. What we have found out here is that changing coaches all the time doesn't get you anywhere. The program needs consistency if they are ever going to be expected to improve.

That said, this defense is terrible. Which stinks because after the non-conference, some of us were thinking it might be a strength this year. A little bit concerning as last years defense was also terrible. To win in the Big Ten, I think PJ has to focus more on defense. Kill was able to win because his teams played great defense. When you just don't get the athletes that alot of other programs do, I think it is important to beef up that defense as much as possible.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I think it all goes back to when Fleck was hired.

Fleck - hot coach coming off 13-1 season and big bowl game. Taking over a team that won 9 games and won a bowl game, but had some off-field issues, questions about discipline, and concerns about ticket sales and recruiting.

I thought - and I think other people thought - that Fleck would take the plusses from Kill and Claeys and build on that - a remodel - not a rebuild. The AD said he was going to bring energy and excitement to the program, and sell tickets.

But, it now appears that Fleck came in planning a total rebuild. Fine - he's the coach, and he gets to set the course for the program. I just wish it would have been made clear at the time what Fleck was planning. I wish he would have come in for his 1st press conference and laid it out - made it black and white that it was going to be a total rebuild, and nobody should expect immediate success. should have said it will get worse before it gets better.

He might not have "won the press conference," but everyone would have known the score.

I maintain that Fleck underestimated the difference between the MAC and the B1G. This is a bigger challenge than he expected. Let's see how he handles it.
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He has been incredibly clear that this is going to be a complete rebuild from day 1
 

cjbfbp said:
If I've proved your point, then that must be because of one of the following:

1) Your writing is so bad that I didn't understand your original point;

2) You're like Donald Trump. Even when you lose you think you've won.
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God -

Here's the jist of it..hope you can understand it.

GREAT teams & GREAT coaches win BIG GAMES. Your recap of the moral victories of 2015 is wonderful. You did a great job.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Speaking of that 2015 Nebraska loss, that was a 23 point blowout, AT HOME, to a Nebraska team that only won 5 regular season games in Mike Riley's first season. Final score was 48-25, and that was year 5 of the Kill/Claeys/Sawvel defensive regime.

But for some to keep saying days similar to yesterday weren't happening under the previous defensive staff, is completely false.

Yesterday's defensive effort was unacceptable, and fans should be upset. There is enough talent on this defense to prevent record breaking days like yesterday.

However, Fleck inherited very thin DL and DB groups, and he continues to build those positions up. It takes time. I'll remain patient because I see the promise in the recruits he's already brought it, especially on offense. I have questions about Robb Smith, but this rebuild has been ongoing for 50 years. I'll continue to remain patient because I think Fleck is still the guy who can turn this program around.
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Amen
 

A narrative I can't stand is that Fleck took over a 9-4 team like it's the NFL

Here are the starts of the last 3 coaches that people like to compare in Big Ten Play

Fleck- 2-11
Kill 3-12
Mason 3-13

Starters in the Bowl Game vs Washington State that are still on the team.

Offense = 2 Players (Beebe and Greene)
Defense = 2 Players (Cashman and Durr)

Durr tore his ACL in that game and has been working back.

Others that played on defense in that game two Huff Brothers, Barber, Martin, Coughlin, and DeLattiboudere.
Offense Tyler Johnson.

Take a look at those players: It's basically a bunch of Linebackers (Huff's, Martin, Coughlin, Barber and Cashman are all the same type of player)

The roster was shot at the end of the Kill/Claeys era and Fleck can hopefully build it up.

Mason inherited his own 10-3 team in 2004 and proceeded to go .500 over the next three years and get fired.
Kill/Claeys inherited their own 8-5 team in 2015 and proceeded to go 6-7 with much of the same players.
Fleck inherited a 9-4 which didn't have a competent QB and was rocked by a scandal that affected the roster.

Fleck is red-shirting 15 scholarship players this year. 7 of them are on defense and 13 of the incoming freshmen are on defense. Defense loses 5 contributors after this season and will add about 20 new players to the competition for playing time next year.

Last year the offense suffered through red-shirting players and injuries. This year it's the defense.
 

Even if we go 0-9 in the Big Ten this season (not impossible), Fleck has 2019 to show progress and probably is just about guaranteed 2020.

I think it would take epic, total failure for him to be fired either after 2019 or only partially through 2020.

Even if we go 0-9 this year, say 2-7 next year, and 3-6 in 2020 ... I bet that's still enough to earn one more year in 2021 to make something happen.

Also, looking at future non-conf:
2019 - South Dakota State, at Fresno, Georgia Southern
2020 - Florida Atlantic, Tenn Tech, BYU
2021 - Miami (OH), at Colorado, Bowling Green

Definitely some lose-able games there. Don't sleep on South Dakota State just because they're in FCS (I-AA). They're just about equivalent to NDSU in strength of program, and will have plenty of guys that would love to beat Minnesota to show them that they should've been recruited by a Big Ten team.


There's a guy in Buffalo ... yes Buffalo ... that is having a fantastic year. Turns out he was the head coach at Wisc-Whitewater, which had amazing success in DIII. I have a feeling he'll be long gone by the time Fleck would need to be replaced, if that turns out to the be the case, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Leipold
 
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