Obviously people are pissed off, always good to listen to guy in charge


The defense of PJ by some on this board is bizarre.

Universally, even Brew defenders weren't this delusional. We rarely had turds like this with Claeys and Kill, so it's hard to compare that with this group.

We got demolished by a bad team. We've been getting demolished by every Big 10 opponent for the last 6 games. He took over a 9 win team and we are really struggling.

That said, I'm still behind PJ and I really hate changing coaches, but things aren't good right now.
 

That early loss to N'western is going to haunt them, but even with it they may win the West. Meanwhile, we're in the cellar and the bottom 3 of the Big Ten. It's a good comparison to see their progress vs ours.

Oh, so did Purdue get its two best offensive players and its NFL caliber top defensive player hurt right away this year...and still be Ohio State? Are they starting a true Frosh QB who has limited mobility due to injury and yet beat Ohio State? No? I didn't think so. As much as we inflate the importance of Xs and Os coaching, players win games...and our best players are on the sidelines. The comparisons to Purdue right now at this point of the season are just stupid. Purdue lost to freakin Eastern Michigan this year.....which should be a fireable offense in itself.
 

I've always been suspicious of coaches who come in with the idea of getting rid of everything the previous coaching staff did, burn down the house, take the losses, and give yourself 3-4 years to implement "his program". Its not his program. Its the taxpayer's program. Its the school's program.

When Callahan took over at Nebraska, he erased references to Solich and Osborn. He bombed. When Brewster got here he burned down
the Mason program and went 1-11 his first year. He bombed.

When Wacker was here, he was a very likable coach but even into his fifth season he was telling everyone how young the team was, loaded with freshmen and maybe sophomores. You know what that says? That the program isn't developing the talent into juniors and seniors. At Michigan, Bo used to say that your team is only as good as your seniors. When you have few seniors, what do you have?

My apprehension is that in 2020 and 2021, Fleck will still be telling us how young his team is. Frankly, I see some good freshmen out there who I think will have a hard time even making it to their junior and senior seasons. They're getting hurt from being over-exposed. They transfer out.

Its very likely that the ONLY reason the Gophers won 5 games last season was because of the holdovers from Kill/Claeys, and that they were enough to prevent disaster.

Here's an opposite example....Texas A&M. Jimbo Fischer didn't come in there and tear down everything Sumlin did. Rather, he took what Sumlin had left him and made it BETTER. Good coaches KNOW they don't have all the answers. He has improved that team and has made no built-in time frames for winning. When a coach tells you it takes 2-3 years to win, what they are doing is making excuses for losing.

When you make such excuses, the team DOES pick up on that. When you don't have success by a certain time, they lose faith in the coach. That time may very well be nearing. Nobody is saying they need to be 6-2, but at least concrete progress. The team is regressing.

A good, experienced, no-nonsense coach would have inherited the 9-4 team, perhaps cleaned out those that needed to go, but would have built upon that right away. But, you get those coaches who just "know it all" and believe that the coaching profession began with them.

At least when Mason and Kill took over, they took over losing teams and showed immediate improvement on the field that showed everyone they were going somewhere. Mason almost beat Penn State his first season in Happy Valley. Kill's teams played with intensity. Remember, Jerry Kill also came in with established principles for his program, and his team lived them. What happened to Claeys was really not indicative of what the program had largely been.

We've seen this show before. Not just at the U, but at countless other schools who had been taken in by that "one in a gazillion coach" who just "knew it all". Creative slogans are no substitute for true fundamentals and growth. If things don't change soon, we'll be rowing the boat alright, right over Niagara Falls.

Traditionally, the best coaching tenures at the U have featured, solid, tough-minded no-nonsense football coaches who had teams that reflected that. Whenever this school tried to get cute, it met with failure...sometimes humiliating failure. This even applies to modern times. I'm still hoping that maybe this team will scrape bottom and start on its way back up. That's my hope. But I've been a student of this program, and of CFB, long enough to know what I'm seeing compared to what I've seen before.

Enough of my pedestal. I've been chased off this board enough to know my welcome is often very short-lived.

Well, you're comparing the U and Fleck to Texas A&M and Jimbo Fisher.
This is the only time in 50 years those two programs were mentioned together.

Kill lost to NMSU in his first year. The year before that team beat Iowa.
 

The defense of PJ by some on this board is bizarre.

Universally, even Brew defenders weren't this delusional. We rarely had turds like this with Claeys and Kill, so it's hard to compare that with this group.

We got demolished by a bad team. We've been getting demolished by every Big 10 opponent for the last 6 games. He took over a 9 win team and we are really struggling.

That said, I'm still behind PJ and I really hate changing coaches, but things aren't good right now.

I'm a defender of him but what' bizarre about saying this was a bad loss, the defense stinks and needs to get better, but we're still 17 games away from knowing if Fleck will work here or not?
 


I listened to Fleck's portion of the press conference.
Bullet points:
It's all on me. I make all the decisions.
team is young. youngest team in America. can't get FR to play like SR's.
lack of depth in secondary, so can't play certain defenses. Nebraska set up their offense to isolate vulnerable players on Gopher defense.
Defensive problems not with scheme, but with execution. players didn't hold the edge, and when they were in position, they missed tackles.
I'm rebuilding the team the way I know how. Said we were going to get younger.
team has lost best 2 players on offense and best 2 players on defense to injuries. every time a player gets injured, have to play another FR.
youngest team in America. (again) playing 5 FR on defense, 7 on offense.
have 100% faith in coaches.
those are some of the main points.
 

I'm a defender of him but what' bizarre about saying this was a bad loss, the defense stinks and needs to get better, but we're still 17 games away from knowing if Fleck will work here or not?

17 more games runs through next season. Absent real wrong doing, probably no coach deserves being fired before three seasons. But I think suggesting that one needs to wait four or five seasons to evaluate a coach is nonsensical. Good coaches don't take that long to be competitive.
 

Just an update to my numbers from a previous post.

Fleck now 2-11 in Big Ten games. 6 consecutive conference losses by a combined 243-86.

I’m still not sure what they saw in him at WMU. 13-1 is nice but you are playing MAC schools. Other than maybe Northwestern he did not beat anyone of significance at WMU and NW always loses an early game to a inferior team.

By this logic virtually no lower level coach should be hired by a P5 program. He also had a MAC level budget, MAC level facilities, etc. I have no idea if he’ll win at MN but it’s crazy to me how much some people down play his success at WMU. Going undefeated in the regular season is very hard no matter what level it is at.
 

Not so much a comparison but simply citing two examples. I can find more.....
 



By this logic virtually no lower level coach should be hired by a P5 program. He also had a MAC level budget, MAC level facilities, etc. I have no idea if he’ll win at MN but it’s crazy to me how much some people down play his success at WMU. Going undefeated in the regular season is very hard no matter what level it is at.

Virtually every coach who moves up from a lower level program has had success at that lower level - or they wouldn't be moving up. The point is that for some coaches, their approach translates to a higher level. But for other coaches, for one reason or another, the approach that worked at the lower level does not translate to the upper level. Yes, any coach needs time to see if his approach will work. 3 or 4 years to recruit his players for his system.

But - it would be nice to see some signs or indications that the approach will work. I don't expect the program to go from 0 to 60 in one year. But I would like to see them show progress - maybe go from 0 to 20 or 30. Then the next year, go from 20 or 30 to 40 or 50. then get to 60 the next year. Right now, the Gophers appear to be spinning their wheels in neutral, and I just hope they don't drop their tranny.
 

Virtually every coach who moves up from a lower level program has had success at that lower level - or they wouldn't be moving up. The point is that for some coaches, their approach translates to a higher level. But for other coaches, for one reason or another, the approach that worked at the lower level does not translate to the upper level. Yes, any coach needs time to see if his approach will work. 3 or 4 years to recruit his players for his system.

But - it would be nice to see some signs or indications that the approach will work. I don't expect the program to go from 0 to 60 in one year. But I would like to see them show progress - maybe go from 0 to 20 or 30. Then the next year, go from 20 or 30 to 40 or 50. then get to 60 the next year. Right now, the Gophers appear to be spinning their wheels in neutral, and I just hope they don't drop their tranny.

I agree with all of this. His point seemed to be that having success in the MAC is not worthy of getting a chance at the P5 level.
 

I've always been suspicious of coaches who come in with the idea of getting rid of everything the previous coaching staff did, burn down the house, take the losses, and give yourself 3-4 years to implement "his program". Its not his program. Its the taxpayer's program. Its the school's program.

When Callahan took over at Nebraska, he erased references to Solich and Osborn. He bombed. When Brewster got here he burned down
the Mason program and went 1-11 his first year. He bombed.

When Wacker was here, he was a very likable coach but even into his fifth season he was telling everyone how young the team was, loaded with freshmen and maybe sophomores. You know what that says? That the program isn't developing the talent into juniors and seniors. At Michigan, Bo used to say that your team is only as good as your seniors. When you have few seniors, what do you have?

My apprehension is that in 2020 and 2021, Fleck will still be telling us how young his team is. Frankly, I see some good freshmen out there who I think will have a hard time even making it to their junior and senior seasons. They're getting hurt from being over-exposed. They transfer out.

Its very likely that the ONLY reason the Gophers won 5 games last season was because of the holdovers from Kill/Claeys, and that they were enough to prevent disaster.

Here's an opposite example....Texas A&M. Jimbo Fischer didn't come in there and tear down everything Sumlin did. Rather, he took what Sumlin had left him and made it BETTER. Good coaches KNOW they don't have all the answers. He has improved that team and has made no built-in time frames for winning. When a coach tells you it takes 2-3 years to win, what they are doing is making excuses for losing.

When you make such excuses, the team DOES pick up on that. When you don't have success by a certain time, they lose faith in the coach. That time may very well be nearing. Nobody is saying they need to be 6-2, but at least concrete progress. The team is regressing.

A good, experienced, no-nonsense coach would have inherited the 9-4 team, perhaps cleaned out those that needed to go, but would have built upon that right away. But, you get those coaches who just "know it all" and believe that the coaching profession began with them.

At least when Mason and Kill took over, they took over losing teams and showed immediate improvement on the field that showed everyone they were going somewhere. Mason almost beat Penn State his first season in Happy Valley. Kill's teams played with intensity. Remember, Jerry Kill also came in with established principles for his program, and his team lived them. What happened to Claeys was really not indicative of what the program had largely been.

We've seen this show before. Not just at the U, but at countless other schools who had been taken in by that "one in a gazillion coach" who just "knew it all". Creative slogans are no substitute for true fundamentals and growth. If things don't change soon, we'll be rowing the boat alright, right over Niagara Falls.

Traditionally, the best coaching tenures at the U have featured, solid, tough-minded no-nonsense football coaches who had teams that reflected that. Whenever this school tried to get cute, it met with failure...sometimes humiliating failure. This even applies to modern times. I'm still hoping that maybe this team will scrape bottom and start on its way back up. That's my hope. But I've been a student of this program, and of CFB, long enough to know what I'm seeing compared to what I've seen before.

Enough of my pedestal. I've been chased off this board enough to know my welcome is often very short-lived.
Here here, Metrolax, he Coach Fleck needs to cut the crap, be heard less, talk less jabber. Quit all the B'S talk and start coaching the team to win Big 10 football games. If players are making mistakes then play players that will make less mistakes. This team needs to start forcing some punts and creating defensive stops. The regression needs to stop. Far too many points being given up on explosive plays.
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I listened to Fleck's portion of the press conference.
Bullet points:
It's all on me. I make all the decisions.
team is young. youngest team in America. can't get FR to play like SR's.
lack of depth in secondary, so can't play certain defenses. Nebraska set up their offense to isolate vulnerable players on Gopher defense.
Defensive problems not with scheme, but with execution. players didn't hold the edge, and when they were in position, they missed tackles.
I'm rebuilding the team the way I know how. Said we were going to get younger.
team has lost best 2 players on offense and best 2 players on defense to injuries. every time a player gets injured, have to play another FR.
youngest team in America. (again) playing 5 FR on defense, 7 on offense.
have 100% faith in coaches.
those are some of the main points.[/QUOT

he specifically said on multiple occasions that he got "out coached today".... really? so we have a young team and he cant coach - Every other team has young players that are red shirted and these players are developing as well. So the "we're young" shtick just doesn't cut it for me - if he's getting out coached that is a deal breaker for me and I don't see that changing

Lastly, I just watched Purdue roll Ohio State and that coach is also in his second year - also if you watched todays Gopher game at the end you could see the Nebraska players essentially mocking PJ by pretending to row the boat - so he's just not respected in the conference at all - if Nebraska players were doing that it tells you what Frost thinks of him - he's a laughing stock and that ain't gunna change - maybe we beat Illinois (but that is a road game) - I see no other BIG team we beat this year. We are looking at 1-8 in the conference -
 



I listened to Fleck's portion of the press conference.
Bullet points:
It's all on me. I make all the decisions.
team is young. youngest team in America. can't get FR to play like SR's.
lack of depth in secondary, so can't play certain defenses. Nebraska set up their offense to isolate vulnerable players on Gopher defense.
Defensive problems not with scheme, but with execution. players didn't hold the edge, and when they were in position, they missed tackles.
I'm rebuilding the team the way I know how. Said we were going to get younger.
team has lost best 2 players on offense and best 2 players on defense to injuries. every time a player gets injured, have to play another FR.
youngest team in America. (again) playing 5 FR on defense, 7 on offense.
have 100% faith in coaches.
those are some of the main points.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
 


I'm a defender of him but what' bizarre about saying this was a bad loss, the defense stinks and needs to get better, but we're still 17 games away from knowing if Fleck will work here or not?

So the middle of year 3 is still too early to tell?
 

Fire Fleck if they go 0-9 in conference.
 

https://www.facebook.com/GopherFootball/videos/1131820913642725/

Coach Fleck Press Conference.
I always found Kill’s pressers insightful and I find Fleck’s that way too. Always good to get the take of the guy in charge. It’s 1 game. Tuned in late, didn’t know Shenault was out. I’ll seriously judge Fleck during 2020 and 2021. Best thing people who want this program to succeed can do now is fully support it. Support this program and team. Today was 1 game. Back home this week! Friday night. A night game! Show up and support! Don’t bitch, cry, and whine.

Go Gophers! Ski U Mah! Row the Boat!

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I’ll be honest, I usually don’t listen to his press conferences because of his use of cliche, and mantra is so over the top I end up tuning him out.

But I watched this one all the way through.

What he said wasn’t important to my take away. I expect him to say he has 100% confidence in his coaching staff and stuff like that.

His body language tells a different story. He was thoroughly dejected as he searched for answers he doesn’t have in his intro.

His growing frustration with the Minnesota press was evident as he became more defiant as the questions went on, but he still looked lost and unsure of himself except for key moments where he was positive he still has all the answers and his patter is rote:

We’re young.
Takes time.
Poor execution due to freshman mistakes.

He leaves a lot out, but none of the answers matter. I want to see the results i want to see the results of what he changes. This year is lost, although I don’t think he threw this one away like he did last year.

We’ll see if this gets any better, but if he’s going to blindly hang on to what worked at western Michigan, he’s not giving himself a chance and without some gunner of hope. Some idea of where we’re headed. The MN sports press is going to make his life miserable, exhibit “A” Chip’s article today which reflects a reaction to Fleck’s response to him last night.

We’re in trouble. We may come out of it but to do that you need calm and clear leadership from someone willing to examine everything unless and until this improves. I don’t expect us to run the table, but I do expect signs of a direction to be evident half way through your second conference season. Every new coach has shown that. I’m concerned more than ever that we’re seeing the direction. I hope I’m wrong.


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+1

Folks act like Fleck inherited Macalaster's roster from T. Claeys. They were coming off a 9 win season and bowl victory over the Fighting Mike Leach's.

Jeff Brohm was hired at Purdue at the same time Fleck came to the U. Look at what Brohm inherited compared to Fleck. I don't see excuses and propaganda coming from West Lafayette.

Purdue has its problems, but you definitely see where they are heading and it looks a lot brighter than our future.


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So here's the main issue.

Are we supposed to be angry at PJ for telling the truth that this team was going to get younger (and probably worse) before it got better.
Or are we supposed to be angry at Coyle for allowing PJ to take the job when PJ outlined that if he was going to hire him, PJ was going to do things his way which is essentially a total rebuild of the program.

In PJ's press conference he said it "wasn't" a total rebuild, but that seems to be the area where he was closest to lying because this feels like a pretty big rebuild at this point, but other than that moment, he's essentially been consistent in that "Year zero, year 1, we're young, Freshman, freshman, freshman, we'll get younger before we get older," narrative.

PJ's an easy guy to hate, but we're essentially doing the same thing we've done for every other coach we wanted fired. Setup our arguments to display their incapability of turning around the program and pounce at our opportunities to exclaim them as soon as they arrive.

It is a total rebuild. Because that is what Fleck chose to do.

This is on him. He’s now created his mess (wouldn’t Handy-Holly and/ or Adam Beck look good in maroon and gold this season?) and he’ll have the chance to clean it up.

We’ll see if he can.


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Probably.
I don't see Coyle making a quick decision on his own hire.

Whether or not we can tell if Fleck is going to work out by the middle of year 3 and whether or not Coyle would be willing to fire him at that point are two different questions.
 


Whether or not we can tell if Fleck is going to work out by the middle of year 3 and whether or not Coyle would be willing to fire him at that point are two different questions.

And if Fleck fails, you have to fire Coyle too.
 

Whether or not we can tell if Fleck is going to work out by the middle of year 3 and whether or not Coyle would be willing to fire him at that point are two different questions.


Whether we can tell? Highly unlikely given our collective expertise.
Whether Coyle will fire him? Absolutely not.
 

Whether Coyle will fire him? Absolutely not.

Agreed. Fleck and Coyle are tied at the hip. As Fleck goes, so goes Coyle. If it ever got to the point where PJ needed to be fired, Coyle would be gone too.
 

It is a total rebuild. Because that is what Fleck chose to do.

This is on him. He’s now created his mess (wouldn’t Handy-Holly and/ or Adam Beck look good in maroon and gold this season?) and he’ll have the chance to clean it up.

We’ll see if he can.


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Good post.

Plenty of fans don’t like the decision Fleck made to go into a total rebuild mode. Some have decided 19 games into it that it’s over.

Fleck made the decision to go this route and as has been pointed out he’ll have his chance to see it through.

Whether it will work or not IMO can’t be determined after 19 games.
 

As others has said, Fleck has to show he can adapt and adjust to the B1G and a power-5 conference.

saying "it worked at WMU" is great - but MN is not WMU. the B1G is not the MAC. some things that worked at WMU may work at MN - but some things that worked at WMU may not work at MN.

Fleck (IMHO) has to show that he is capable of self-analysis, and is willing to look at new ideas.

I understand a lot of this is open to interpretation, but when Fleck was hired, I think a lot of people thought the U was getting a really bright, young coach who would move the program in a positive direction - take what Kill and Claeys did, and build on it. A remodeling - not a total rebuild.

Instead, Fleck came in and basically tore down the house and started building from the cellar up. Not saying it's a bad plan, but it's not what most people expected. I thought - and I think a lot of people thought - that the program would be further along by this point. Not expecting Gophers to win a conference title in year 2 - but I was expecting to see growth - to see what a Fleck-coached team would look like. Establishing an identity.

Fleck will get at least 4 years to prove if his system can work. Coyle would not fire him unless there was a Brewster-level collapse. But, if the program doesn't show some clear and definite growth over the next year or 2 years, Fleck and Coyle are going to be under a real microscope - especially with the U of M getting ready to hire a new president who will have no loyalty to Coyle or Fleck.
 

Good post.

Plenty of fans don’t like the decision Fleck made to go into a total rebuild mode. Some have decided 19 games into it that it’s over.

Fleck made the decision to go this route and as has been pointed out he’ll have his chance to see it through.

Whether it will work or not IMO can’t be determined after 19 games.

How again did Fleck choose to rebuild? What upperclassmen did he run off that are having success elsewhere?

This is a rebuild because only 41% of the 2014 and 2015 recruiting classes are left. Many of those recruits were gone before Fleck was even hired.
 

How again did Fleck choose to rebuild? What upperclassmen did he run off that are having success elsewhere?

This is a rebuild because only 41% of the 2014 and 2015 recruiting classes are left. Many of those recruits were gone before Fleck was even hired.

Fleck has said himself it was a rebuild because that is how he knows to do it. He has made the decision to go young especially on offense.

He has said they will get worse before they get better. Even pulled out some goofy chart as a prop to explain what he has envisioned.
 




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