Is this taunting or simply moving your feet to get away from a tackle?



It seemed like a bit much for a flag, but maybe they were warned or some other things were going on.... i mean 2nd one, dude don't do that...
 

It's a horrendously bad call by the official.
Not like we haven't seen it before.
 

It seemed like a bit much for a flag, but maybe they were warned or some other things were going on.... i mean 2nd one, dude don't do that...

I needed to change my wording after I saw your post. I should have said 2nd poor sportsmanship. I do not know what he did on the first one. Sorry Bacon.
 









Unbelievable how bad that call is

Agreed. Taunting seems like a call the ref should only call if he is absolutely sure, because unlike most other penalties, there is virtually no harm in not calling it when you should.
 


Agreed. Taunting seems like a call the ref should only call if he is absolutely sure, because unlike most other penalties, there is virtually no harm in not calling it when you should.

BUT BUT BUT *Insert comment about sportsmanship, integrity, classiness, blah, blah, blah* here
 



So blame the officials for this? Sounds like structural problem with the sport.

At the high school level in my experience:

Officiating is generally terrible. You’ll get guys who literally don’t know some of the rules. In an 8 game season in Minnesota you’ll have 2-4 games where the officiating is good.

Then, the coaches get frustrated at bad officials. Say mean things.

Then, guys who are bad officials get out rather than and no new ones want to get in so next year there is bad officiating the next year.

Rinse, repeat.
 

What MSHSL needs to do IMO is admit officiating is bad. Tell the coaches we know and we want to get better. Tell the coaches we want these refs to get better so when they mess up be rational and kind. Be understanding. The refs will be better the next year.


What they imply instead: we have great officials who don’t make mistakes


If the MShSl would acknowledge the issues coaches would be better at dealing with them
 

What MSHSL needs to do IMO is admit officiating is bad. Tell the coaches we know and we want to get better. Tell the coaches we want these refs to get better so when they mess up be rational and kind. Be understanding. The refs will be better the next year.


What they imply instead: we have great officials who don’t make mistakes


If the MShSl would acknowledge the issues coaches would be better at dealing with them

I don't think I've ever gotten better at something just because someone else knows I sucked and just was happy to say so.
 
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I've never reffed (other than junior high games). But I coached for eight years in four different programs, and I don't know if the reffing was necessarily worse than a lot of the coaching I saw.

For the most part, I'm not talking about guys I worked with (although there was one clown who liked to strut around in his tank top and refer to young boys as "men," and that was about all he could do).

Point is, there's a shortage of quality people in youth sports. It's not just the refs.

And for anybody who is bent out of shape about your area refs/umpires, I have a suggestion: Try doing it yourself. If you don't want to put the time and effort into it, you might want to show a little respect for those who do. It ain't easy.

JTG
 

What MSHSL needs to do IMO is admit officiating is bad. Tell the coaches we know and we want to get better. Tell the coaches we want these refs to get better so when they mess up be rational and kind. Be understanding. The refs will be better the next year.


What they imply instead: we have great officials who don’t make mistakes


If the MShSl would acknowledge the issues coaches would be better at dealing with them

...also when coaches/fans start to understand that rules for High School are not the same as NCAA and NFL, things will get better. Issues arise when coaches can't move on from bad calls and stop focusing on coaching. Bad calls will always happen. 50% of officials are above average and 50% are below. Seems logical.
 

I don't think I've ever gotten better at something just because someone else knows I sucked and just was happy to say so.

Yup. Part of mshsl admitting they are terrible would also including further training in year two. Right now the officiating pool is thin and getting thinner
 

...also when coaches/fans start to understand that rules for High School are not the same as NCAA and NFL, things will get better. Issues arise when coaches can't move on from bad calls and stop focusing on coaching. Bad calls will always happen. 50% of officials are above average and 50% are below. Seems logical.

Yeah. Difference is when coaches are bad at their jobs, they get fired.
When an officiating crew doesn’t know the rules you get the same officiating crew week 4 and week 7. And then 3 times again the next year. And two the year after that. And they get worse in those three years not better. The Refs at the high school level who are bottom 50% should be embarrassed and want to get better because they don’t know the rules of the game in many cases.


In my experience too, the refs outside the metro are better than the refs in the metro. Too many games and crews in the metro and placement is based on seniority and politics more than quality.
 

Yup. Part of mshsl admitting they are terrible would also including further training in year two. Right now the officiating pool is thin and getting thinner

Yeah that's the key. Same thing with the other leagues that sometimes bitch about ref quality.... but seem to have zero interest in actually spending the money / doing something about it.
 

...also when coaches/fans start to understand that rules for High School are not the same as NCAA and NFL, things will get better. Issues arise when coaches can't move on from bad calls and stop focusing on coaching. Bad calls will always happen. 50% of officials are above average and 50% are below. Seems logical.

My only real frustration with officials is when they don't actually know the rules. I think there are a lot of judgement calls, quick-play type things like a foul in basketball or pass interference that I can say it would be easy to make a mistake. From sports I've played or coached though, there are just too many refs that are just plain calling the rules incorrectly. Do your homework and learn the rules. I coach youth soccer and I constantly have to correct (or teach) officials the correct rules. A volunteer coach shouldn't know the rules better than the paid referees.
 

Yeah. Difference is when coaches are bad at their jobs, they get fired.
When an officiating crew doesn’t know the rules you get the same officiating crew week 4 and week 7. And then 3 times again the next year. And two the year after that. And they get worse in those three years not better. The Refs at the high school level who are bottom 50% should be embarrassed and want to get better because they don’t know the rules of the game in many cases.


In my experience too, the refs outside the metro are better than the refs in the metro. Too many games and crews in the metro and placement is based on seniority and politics more than quality.

Referee retention is really difficult in my experience in various sports spending some time officiating. It's a difficult and thankless job that most are doing to maintain a connection to the sport and because they believe in amateur athletics. Coaches and parents treat refs like absolute trash, especially at the high school level. I refereed soccer from age 15 through about 22 and quit because the relatively small amount of cash was just not worth the abuse. I would bet that the #1 cause of referees quitting is treatment by coaches and parents. Oddly enough the players are usually the calmest of the bunch.
 

Yeah. Difference is when coaches are bad at their jobs, they get fired.
When an officiating crew doesn’t know the rules you get the same officiating crew week 4 and week 7. And then 3 times again the next year. And two the year after that. And they get worse in those three years not better. The Refs at the high school level who are bottom 50% should be embarrassed and want to get better because they don’t know the rules of the game in many cases.


In my experience too, the refs outside the metro are better than the refs in the metro. Too many games and crews in the metro and placement is based on seniority and politics more than quality.

How many HS coaches in MN lose their job each year due to losing? Honest question.
Some officials are poor in knowing the rules, but many coaches and players don't know the rules as well. Over 200 differences in rules from HS to Pros or College.
Surprising that you would see the same crew more than twice in a season.
Realize that metro officials cover majority of games within 100 miles of the Twin Cities.

70% of HS games in MN are blowouts. (Over the last 5 years the average margin of victory in my games has been 24 points per game) That doesn't happen because of officiating.
 

I sucked at the sport, so you kids can't have any fun playing it, either!
 

I sucked at the sport, so you kids can't have any fun playing it, either!

Mocking refs and other folks helping with youth spoors is why ... people leave it and you get fewer good people helping...
 

rockford;1602787[B said:
And for anybody who is bent out of shape about your area refs/umpires[/B], I have a suggestion: Try doing it yourself. If you don't want to put the time and effort into it, you might want to show a little respect for those who do. It ain't easy.B]JTG[/B]

I'm still bitter about being called out on strikes in H.S. when there was only one strike before the pitch. The ump got confused and asked the score keeper. The score keeper admitted to not knowing for sure. The catcher laughed and said to me, "sucks to be you."
 

Without knowing any background, this seems pretty weak. The worst part isn't even the 15 yards, it's the fact he has to sit out a game.

This seems like one of those times that there should be a review/appeal where somebody says, "it's fine they called a penalty, but this probably isn't worthy of making him sit out a game".

But who knows. Maybe the kid has a reputation, or had been warned multiple times. This play itself doesn't seem like it should be taunting, but it could have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

I have heard from a couple guys big into HS sports that, at least to some extent, the referees are told to err on the side of throwing the flag rather than allow something that might be taunting. I don't personally agree with that philosophy (especially if it results in sitting a player), but it's their way of trying to eliminate taunting from the game.
 
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How many HS coaches in MN lose their job each year due to losing? Honest question.
Some officials are poor in knowing the rules, but many coaches and players don't know the rules as well. Over 200 differences in rules from HS to Pros or College.
Surprising that you would see the same crew more than twice in a season.
Realize that metro officials cover majority of games within 100 miles of the Twin Cities.

70% of HS games in MN are blowouts. (Over the last 5 years the average margin of victory in my games has been 24 points per game) That doesn't happen because of officiating.

No idea what the direct firing rate is, but there is a high turnover rate of coaches who get fired or “resign”


Not that uncommon to see the same crew 2-3 times in a season.

The nice thing was the program I have ties to actually had decent officiating tonight though the team lost. A few weeks back on a kick out of bounds the refs literally out the ball on the wrong yard line and never corrected it. It benefitted my team.


High school football margin of victory is misleading. In Minnesota there are a lot of really bad programs/teams. They tend to get beat by astronomical margins (50+) which skews the mean. I would be interested in the median game.
 

Referee retention is really difficult in my experience in various sports spending some time officiating. It's a difficult and thankless job that most are doing to maintain a connection to the sport and because they believe in amateur athletics. Coaches and parents treat refs like absolute trash, especially at the high school level. I refereed soccer from age 15 through about 22 and quit because the relatively small amount of cash was just not worth the abuse. I would bet that the #1 cause of referees quitting is treatment by coaches and parents. Oddly enough the players are usually the calmest of the bunch.

It is not reasonable to expect perfection from volunteers. Unfortunately, football is a game where refs have to make lots of judgement calls. In general, the refs deserve the benefit of the doubt.
 




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