Reusse: Expectations are all over the map for Gophers athletics

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BleedGopher

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per Pat:

Brad Frost, the coach of the women’s hockey team, was among the Gophers coaches spotted among attendees for Friday night’s regional baseball game at Siebert Field. As he stood nearby, I said to the young sports pundit next to me:

“It has been a couple of years since Frost won the national championship, right? He better watch himself.”

Later, I was contemplating how a Gophers fan base — whether minimal, middling or large in size — perceives success for an athletic team.

There are 34 schools in Division I women’s hockey, the Gophers have a dedicated arena, first call on numerous Grade A recruits, and if they don’t win it all, it can’t be a satisfying season.

There are 60 schools in Division I men’s hockey, and while it is now a much more even playing surface since the days the Gophers were referred to as the “Yankees of college hockey,” being in the 16-team NCAA field is an expectation, not an achievement.

New coach Bob Motzko will have to reach a regional final, at a minimum, for a good first impression.

The softball team won a third consecutive Big Ten tournament, thrilling its band of loyalists, and not getting out of a regional has been blamed on unfavorable seeding rather than as a failure.

The baseball team hit the exacta this season, with Big Ten regular-season and tournament titles, but if John Anderson’s Gophers don’t get out of this home field regional, it will be seen as a disappointment and not misfortune.

Then there’s basketball:

Marlene Stollings was 11-5 in the Big Ten last season, 38-30 overall and 1-2 in the NCAA tournament in four seasons. The fans were happy to see her leave and open the Barn’s doors for Lindsay Whalen.

Richard Pitino was 4-14 in the Big Ten last season, and he’s 31-59 overall and 0-1 in the NCAA in five seasons, and the hoop(le) heads say, “Give him time.”

http://www.startribune.com/expectations-are-all-over-the-map-for-gophers-athletics/484393341/

Go Gophers!!
 

My takeaway... I had no idea there were so few women's hockey teams...we should win! Two, with only 60 men's hockey programs, we should certainly be in the the mix every year.
Apart from that most of what he says is yeah, so what's your point?
Winning in any sport is not easy...but it's harder in NCAA football and basketball at the top level. That is reality.
 

the point is how different fan bases respond to a team's performance.

Gopher Men's hockey doesn't make the NCAA tournament - and fans scream for the coach's head.

On the other hand, Gopher Men's BB doesn't make the NCAA tournament, and (at least some) fans say "give the coach more time." Same with Football.

I'm not saying that one approach is right and the other is wrong - just pointing out the difference in how fans of certain sports deal with expectations.
 


It depends on the sport, sure, but it also has a lot to do with likability/image. Take the numerous Claeys/Fleck double standards for example.

People won't admit it, but much of it has to do with how appealing the person is to the eye, and how much you're dazzled by their press conferences/public appearances. That is much of why so many turned on Claeys after 1 year, but are willing to give Fleck until 2022 before a bowl game. About 5% is related to actual Xs and Os football (again, JohnnyBoy would never admit that it's Flecks physical appearance and oratory style that's hooked him, instead of a solid faith in his football prowess, and he may not even know it).

There is a reason Fleck trots his wife around the facility, to practices, on the field after games, and makes sure she's front and center in every picture....and it's not because she's an integral part of decision making in regards to football operations. He knows how to leverage image (to keep it G rated).
 


short ornery norwegian said:
the point is how different fan bases respond to a team's performance.

Gopher Men's hockey doesn't make the NCAA tournament - and fans scream for the coach's head.

On the other hand, Gopher Men's BB doesn't make the NCAA tournament, and (at least some) fans say "give the coach more time." Same with Football.

I'm not saying that one approach is right and the other is wrong - just pointing out the difference in how fans of certain sports deal with expectations.
Click to expand...

Honest question for you:

If Richard Pitino was named Clark Dingleberry, wore sweats everyday and weighed 350 pounds, didn't have a natural talent for public speaking, and didn't have all sorts of "my kids are so cute" family man anecdotes, do you think the majority of fans would react the same? Exact same basketball coaching/recruiting acumen.
 

Heracles said:
Honest question for you:

If Richard Pitino was named Clark Dingleberry, wore sweats everyday and weighed 350 pounds, didn't have a natural talent for public speaking, and didn't have all sorts of "my kids are so cute" family man anecdotes, do you think the majority of fans would react the same? Exact same basketball coaching/recruiting acumen.
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You may have a point. Pitino is way better at PR and image than someone like Claeys but I don't think his name is an advantage anymore.

I'm also not sure that the majority of fans embrace the "give him more time" attitude. The majority on here may feel that way but I'm not sure they're representative of the population of fans on the whole. You can sure read a lot of bitching on the Star Trib pages after games.
 

60's Guy said:
Winning in any sport is not easy...but it's harder in NCAA football and basketball at the top level. That is reality.
Click to expand...

Why should it be harder in basketball than it is in baseball? Virtually all D1 universities have a baseball team, you need more players on a team, and southern and western teams dominate in that sport.
 

Heracles said:
It depends on the sport, sure, but it also has a lot to do with likability/image. Take the numerous Claeys/Fleck double standards for example.

People won't admit it, but much of it has to do with how appealing the person is to the eye, and how much you're dazzled by their press conferences/public appearances. That is much of why so many turned on Claeys after 1 year, but are willing to give Fleck until 2022 before a bowl game. About 5% is related to actual Xs and Os football (again, JohnnyBoy would never admit that it's Flecks physical appearance and oratory style that's hooked him, instead of a solid faith in his football prowess, and he may not even know it).

There is a reason Fleck trots his wife around the facility, to practices, on the field after games, and makes sure she's front and center in every picture....and it's not because she's an integral part of decision making in regards to football operations. He knows how to leverage image (to keep it G rated).
Click to expand...

This is a weird comment man. A big part of Fleck’s brand is the family atmosphere he tries to create at his program and the more visible they are the more of a feel there is for that being the case. While your focus is oddly his wife, his kids are also known to spend a fair amount of time around the facility. This is the case at a lot of programs especially some of the bigger ones. Jameis Winston famously had a pregame handshake he did with Jimbo Fisher’s son before games, Saban at SEC media day always gives updates on what’s going on with his family, Eric Musselman’s got videos out there with his family, Jerry Kill’s wife was pretty visible too. That’s just how it is in big time college athletics or with younger families in general. Everybody knows the family.

Every fan base dreams on the player/coach with the higher ceiling so this just seems like a lazy attempt to get fans going. I know that’s Pat’s thing but it’s poorly executed here. The Michigan Football/Basketbakl situation is a good example of that. Kill/Claeys, Tubby and Stollings had all largely peaked here and in the first two examples in particular it was reflected in recruiting. At some point “Coachin’ em up” can only take you so far and you have to get to a point where you land the high level recruits to compete for conference titles which is what we all want. Fleck and Pitino have pulled those guys in and Whalen seems to have the potential to do the same. So let’s see how it plays out.
 



Myke said:
At some point “Coachin’ em up” can only take you so far and you have to get to a point where you land the high level recruits to compete for conference titles which is what we all want. Fleck and Pitino have pulled those guys in and Whalen seems to have the potential to do the same. So let’s see how it plays out.
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I agree that Fleck so far appears to be a better recruiter than Claeys (and maybe Kill too), but, despite an awful recruiting finish by Tubby, I wouldn't say that Pitino clearly has out-recruited Tubby. I'd say it's pretty close.

Also, with regard to Fleck, his recruits so far just have potential. Being a 4 star recruit is even less of a sure thing in football than it is in basketball (Remember Kill's highest rated recruit - Jeff Jones?). On the other hand, Kill/Claeys managed to recruit more than a few lightly rated kids on the defensive end who were real players.
 

cjbfbp said:
Why should it be harder in basketball than it is in baseball? Virtually all D1 universities have a baseball team, you need more players on a team, and southern and western teams dominate in that sport.
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There are about 100 less teams in baseball than basketball but Minnesota is definitely at a disadvantage to winning versus warm weather schools. I was talking about the revenue sports of football, basketball and hockey.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
the point is how different fan bases respond to a team's performance.

Gopher Men's hockey doesn't make the NCAA tournament - and fans scream for the coach's head.

On the other hand, Gopher Men's BB doesn't make the NCAA tournament, and (at least some) fans say "give the coach more time." Same with Football.

I'm not saying that one approach is right and the other is wrong - just pointing out the difference in how fans of certain sports deal with expectations.
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Thanks SON! I guess I missed it because I was mostly in agreement to his take on the responses. Hockey should win....tradition, recruiting advantages, facilities etc Football, although I'm impatient is a much bigger boat to navigate, so I''ll restlessly wait.
 

Heracles said:
Honest question for you:

If Richard Pitino was named Clark Dingleberry, wore sweats everyday and weighed 350 pounds, didn't have a natural talent for public speaking, and didn't have all sorts of "my kids are so cute" family man anecdotes, do you think the majority of fans would react the same? Exact same basketball coaching/recruiting acumen.
Click to expand...

Of course it would matter. The coach has to represent the U and be able to talk to supporters, etc... but you are a fool if you think that is the only reason that there are supporters that think he should be given more time. I don’t want to beat the same horse over and over and over again so you can look back yourself to see the justifications. He can recruit, he can coach and he can develop players.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 



cjbfbp said:
I agree that Fleck so far appears to be a better recruiter than Claeys (and maybe Kill too), but, despite an awful recruiting finish by Tubby, I wouldn't say that Pitino clearly has out-recruited Tubby. I'd say it's pretty close.

Also, with regard to Fleck, his recruits so far just have potential. Being a 4 star recruit is even less of a sure thing in football than it is in basketball (Remember Kill's highest rated recruit - Jeff Jones?). On the other hand, Kill/Claeys managed to recruit more than a few lightly rated kids on the defensive end who were real players.
Click to expand...

Things really fell off for Tubby in the later years on the trail. Pitino definitely had some luck with the state turning into a basketball hotbed overnight but still pulling in Coffey, Murphy and Washington has been impressive for an unproven coach. He’s also had a pair of arguably all timers in Mason and Murphy.

In fairness Jeff was never going to make it with his grades but Kill definitely deserves credit for landing Coughlin. It has only been one year so we have to wait and see on Fleck but I think some of the offers the kids he’s landed have got speak for itself. He’s done a solid job recruiting the trenches which is where it really matters and where we’ve fell flat in recent years. We didn’t have the big bodies when it mattered against the big names in the conference.
 

Myke said:
Things really fell off for Tubby in the later years on the trail. Pitino definitely had some luck with the state turning into a basketball hotbed overnight but still pulling in Coffey, Murphy and Washington has been impressive for an unproven coach. He’s also had a pair of arguably all timers in Mason and Murphy.
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Let's be clear about something. Pitino coaches in one of the premier college basketball leagues in the country. This is a league that has its own national cable network generating substantial funds for member schools and appears regularly on the ESPN channels. Perhaps this league is second only to the ACC in the amount of exposure given to players. The league schools have first rate facilities. Pitino makes about 1.7 million per year. A coach in this league should be recruiting elite players just given institutional factors. Pitino isn't recruiting any better than he should be.

Perhaps Washington will have a better career than Andre Hollins. I don't know, but I do know that Andre Hollins was better as a freshman. Pitino has yet to recruit a two guard as good as Austin Hollins. Tubby also recruited two other guards who had quite good college careers (Devoe Joseph and Justin Cobbs) even though they transferred. Tubby never recruited any big man as bad as Bakary or Gaston.

Finally, racking up big minutes and counting stats on bad teams doesn't make a player one of the all-time greats. I do believe Murphy is a special player but his impact on the game isn't any bigger than Mbakwe's (although he's a whole lot more durable). Mason was a mixed bag. He was a good scorer (although not a particularly efficient one) but he didn't run the point in a way that made his teammates better. Two of the three teams during his tenure as a starter were bad.
 

60's Guy said:
There are about 100 less teams in baseball than basketball but Minnesota is definitely at a disadvantage to winning versus warm weather schools. I was talking about the revenue sports of football, basketball and hockey.
Click to expand...

What you said was that it was harder to win in football and basketball than other sports. I asked you why it should be harder to win in basketball than it is in baseball and you had no convincing answer to that question. Perhaps you ultimately realized that your prior statement was just a baseless opinion instead of "reality" as you initially characterized it.
 

cjbfbp said:
Let's be clear about something. Pitino coaches in one of the premier college basketball leagues in the country. This is a league that has its own national cable network generating substantial funds for member schools and appears regularly on the ESPN channels. Perhaps this league is second only to the ACC in the amount of exposure given to players. The league schools have first rate facilities. Pitino makes about 1.7 million per year. A coach in this league should be recruiting elite players just given institutional factors. Pitino isn't recruiting any better than he should be.

Perhaps Washington will have a better career than Andre Hollins. I don't know, but I do know that Andre Hollins was better as a freshman. Pitino has yet to recruit a two guard as good as Austin Hollins. Tubby also recruited two other guards who had quite good college careers (Devoe Joseph and Justin Cobbs) even though they transferred. Tubby never recruited any big man as bad as Bakary or Gaston.

Finally, racking up big minutes and counting stats on bad teams doesn't make a player one of the all-time greats. I do believe Murphy is a special player but his impact on the game isn't any bigger than Mbakwe's (although he's a whole lot more durable). Mason was a mixed bag. He was a good scorer (although not a particularly efficient one) but he didn't run the point in a way that made his teammates better. Two of the three teams during his tenure as a starter were bad.
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Talk about cherry picking your comparison. Both Joseph and Cobbs leave and do better than while they were under the tutelage of Tubby, and that is your comparison of how Tubby is better than Pitino? Of course you only want to look at the aspect that he got them to the U, but let’s not talk about the fact they left and then did substantially better once they got away from Tubby. Let’s talk about Colton as well, he leaves then gets much better. I feel like the program is in a much better place than under Tubby and it’s not even close. Pitino is young and has made some mistakes, but I see him growing and getting rid of those mistakes. With Tubby I saw things just getting worse and no real upside.
 

cjbfbp said:
Let's be clear about something. Pitino coaches in one of the premier college basketball leagues in the country. This is a league that has its own national cable network generating substantial funds for member schools and appears regularly on the ESPN channels. Perhaps this league is second only to the ACC in the amount of exposure given to players. The league schools have first rate facilities. Pitino makes about 1.7 million per year. A coach in this league should be recruiting elite players just given institutional factors. Pitino isn't recruiting any better than he should be.

Perhaps Washington will have a better career than Andre Hollins. I don't know, but I do know that Andre Hollins was better as a freshman. Pitino has yet to recruit a two guard as good as Austin Hollins. Tubby also recruited two other guards who had quite good college careers (Devoe Joseph and Justin Cobbs) even though they transferred. Tubby never recruited any big man as bad as Bakary or Gaston.

Finally, racking up big minutes and counting stats on bad teams doesn't make a player one of the all-time greats. I do believe Murphy is a special player but his impact on the game isn't any bigger than Mbakwe's (although he's a whole lot more durable). Mason was a mixed bag. He was a good scorer (although not a particularly efficient one) but he didn't run the point in a way that made his teammates better. Two of the three teams during his tenure as a starter were bad.
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I’d argue the SEC (especially with their relationship with ESPN and their BTNesque channel) as well as to a lesser extent the Big 12 get more national exposure. You could argue the PAC-12 is more visible with ESPN dedicating their late night slots to them. I doubt many people outside of Big Ten country are watching BTN. It’s games on the big networks that matter as they pull in the casual viewers and the Gophers had a top 25 game broadcasted on a Facebook stream last year. The lack of exposure for the conference is reflected in league wide recuriting. This was a great year for the conference but in the last decade the conference has landed very few high level recruits and sent far fewer guys to the NBA than the other P6 conferences. I’d say he’s recuriting at a level you’d expect though I think it can get better.

It’s a wait and see game with Washington but landing him was widely viewed as a huge get for the program. I find it interesting you compare him to Hollins instead of Mason btw. Let’s not forget that Maverick and Oto were Konate and Gaston before Pitino showed up.

We all love Trevor but Murphy was literally in the NPOY conversation halfway through the season last year and he likely will be again this year. That, being a key part of a team that finished top 4 in the conference and his all-conference accolades have to stand for something. Mason did what was needed as a scorer while still finishing 2nd all time in assists. For a guy that doesn’t make his teammates better he sure got them a lot of good looks.
 

Gopher Teeth said:
Talk about cherry picking your comparison. Both Joseph and Cobbs leave and do better than while they were under the tutelage of Tubby, and that is your comparison of how Tubby is better than Pitino?
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The question had to do with recruiting. My point was that Pitino hasn't shown yet that he is clearly a better recruiter than Tubby. Try to read a little more closely next time.
 

Myke said:
I
It’s a wait and see game with Washington but landing him was widely viewed as a huge get for the program. I find it interesting you compare him to Hollins instead of Mason btw. Let’s not forget that Maverick and Oto were Konate and Gaston before Pitino showed up.
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Of course I compared him to Hollins. Why would I compare him to Mason? He wasn't recruited by Tubby.

Maverick and Oto were not big men. Nevertheless, they were clearly better basketball players than Bakary or Gaston. If Bakary would have been the same size as Oto he would have been virtually useless.

I watched Big Ten basketball games on BTN while staying in a hotel in eastern PA a couple of years ago so I think you underestimate the reach of the network. Like the SEC and PAC 12 networks, the BTN is available on national cable systems. It's also available on Playstation VUE and YouTube streaming packages. It is not available on Sling but neither are the SEC and PAC 12 networks without an add-on.
 

cjbfbp said:
Of course I compared him to Hollins. Why would I compare him to Mason? He wasn't recruited by Tubby.

Maverick and Oto were not big men. Nevertheless, they were clearly better basketball players than Bakary or Gaston. If Bakary would have been the same size as Oto he would have been virtually useless.

I watched Big Ten basketball games on BTN while staying in a hotel in eastern PA a couple of years ago so I think you underestimate the reach of the network. Like the SEC and PAC 12 networks, the BTN is available on national cable systems. It's also available on Playstation VUE and YouTube streaming packages. It is not available on Sling but neither are the SEC and PAC 12 networks without an add-on.
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I am clearly a better basketball player than Shaq, because if Shaq were my size he'd have been virtually useless.
 

cjbfbp said:
The question had to do with recruiting. My point was that Pitino hasn't shown yet that he is clearly a better recruiter than Tubby. Try to read a little more closely next time.
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Maybe not in terms of total tenure. But Pitino's recruiting in year 5 in certainly better than Tubby's was. You can't deny the massive fall-off that occurred from Sampson/Devoe Joseph and the Hollins brothers to Oto, Buggs and Wally.
 

howeda7 said:
Maybe not in terms of total tenure. But Pitino's recruiting in year 5 in certainly better than Tubby's was. You can't deny the massive fall-off that occurred from Sampson/Devoe Joseph and the Hollins brothers to Oto, Buggs and Wally.
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His recruiting may be better and i am one who thinks it is but what might that say about his coaching ?
 

cjbfbp said:
Of course I compared him to Hollins. Why would I compare him to Mason? He wasn't recruited by Tubby.

Maverick and Oto were not big men. Nevertheless, they were clearly better basketball players than Bakary or Gaston. If Bakary would have been the same size as Oto he would have been virtually useless.

I watched Big Ten basketball games on BTN while staying in a hotel in eastern PA a couple of years ago so I think you underestimate the reach of the network. Like the SEC and PAC 12 networks, the BTN is available on national cable systems. It's also available on Playstation VUE and YouTube streaming packages. It is not available on Sling but neither are the SEC and PAC 12 networks without an add-on.
Click to expand...

What I don’t understand is why you are comparing a 4 year Tubby recurit to a 1 year Pitino recurit when Mason just graduated. Maybe I’m not understanding your Washington/Hollins comment.

BTN definitely has reach if you are interested but someone without a vested interest in the game is not going to seek out BTN and watch more often than not. That’s why the ESPN/FS1 games are so important as you get the casual sports fan that’s just flipping through the channels. Part of the reason I think the reason Duke has become so attractive to the best recruits is in part down to ESPN pretty much turning itself into their home channel. Every game is on ESPN so all these kids grew up watching them and learned about their program.
 

cjbfbp said:
The question had to do with recruiting. My point was that Pitino hasn't shown yet that he is clearly a better recruiter than Tubby. Try to read a little more closely next time.
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+10, this season is really his last shot at clearing his name in regards to recruiting.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

cjbfbp said:
Of course I compared him to Hollins. Why would I compare him to Mason? He wasn't recruited by Tubby.

Maverick and Oto were not big men. Nevertheless, they were clearly better basketball players than Bakary or Gaston. If Bakary would have been the same size as Oto he would have been virtually useless.

I watched Big Ten basketball games on BTN while staying in a hotel in eastern PA a couple of years ago so I think you underestimate the reach of the network. Like the SEC and PAC 12 networks, the BTN is available on national cable systems. It's also available on Playstation VUE and YouTube streaming packages. It is not available on Sling but neither are the SEC and PAC 12 networks without an add-on.
Click to expand...

Good point. If Usain Bolt wasn't fast, he would be virtually useless too.
 

fryguy22 said:
I am clearly a better basketball player than Shaq, because if Shaq were my size he'd have been virtually useless.
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I'm sure you thought that was clever but you were wrong.
 

Myke said:
What I don’t understand is why you are comparing a 4 year Tubby recurit to a 1 year Pitino recurit when Mason just graduated. Maybe I’m not understanding your Washington/Hollins comment.

BTN definitely has reach if you are interested but someone without a vested interest in the game is not going to seek out BTN and watch more often than not. That’s why the ESPN/FS1 games are so important as you get the casual sports fan that’s just flipping through the channels. Part of the reason I think the reason Duke has become so attractive to the best recruits is in part down to ESPN pretty much turning itself into their home channel. Every game is on ESPN so all these kids grew up watching them and learned about their program.
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What I said was that Hollins had a better freshman year than Washington even though Washington was a higher rated player. I have no opinion who will have the better career but ultimately the only thing that matters is how a player plays during his college career, not ratings coming out of high school.

What you said about the BTN would also apply to FS1, CBS Sports network, the SEC network, and the PAC 12 network. But my cable doesn't have an HD PAC 12 channel I don't think.
 

Keyser Söze said:
Good point. If Usain Bolt wasn't fast, he would be virtually useless too.
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I'm just curious - why do you choose to embed the picture of a disgraced pervert, sexual harasser, and all around SOB in your posts? Is he your idol?
 

builtbadgers said:
His recruiting may be better and i am one who thinks it is but what might that say about his coaching ?
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His game day coaching seems to be a mixed bag. Outside of year 1, you can't really say he's squeezed extra wins out of his talent, where Tubby did so a couple times. On the other hand, every in-bounds play isn't an adventure like it was with Tubby.
 

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