ELITE Culture Thoughts/Ramblings

I'd give Fleck a 10 year contract right now, with a historically massive buyout to get out of it, if I could. I'm not sold on him, but I think he's our best chance at long-term sustained success and getting coaches to come here can be a crapshoot. Kill was like our 7th choice, so we frankly got lucky that he panned out that we he did.
 

It takes someone who is a salesman who can sale dead people's shoes to win in this tundra. Maybe that person is PJ Fleck. You can say all you want about Fleckism. I don't care as long as he can turn this wretched cursed program around. They have to point to the glory days long gone and convince folks that it can be done again. There must be a few Gophers rolling in their graves.

One thing is certain. More of us are going to join them. Let's hope that when we go, we do so with a smile on our faces. :eek:

I think this is taking it a little too far.

Yes, the Gophers have not won a conference title in a long time.

Wanted to find out, so did a little number-crunching. Here is how the Gophers have placed in the conference (overall standings) starting with last B1G title (shared) in '67. this includes ties for placement:
1st - 1
3rd - 4
4th - 4
5th - 6
6th - 9
7th - 7
8th - 5
9th - 4
10th - 9 (5 times in last place)
11th - 2 (1 time in last place)

So, not great, but I still think 'wretched' is over-doing it. Gopher football has been an average to below-average program. I think that is the frustrating part. If they finished in last place every year, more fans would have just given up. But, they show flashes of competence, with the occasional winning season, often enough to keep fans hopeful.
 

I think this is taking it a little too far.

Yes, the Gophers have not won a conference title in a long time.

Wanted to find out, so did a little number-crunching. Here is how the Gophers have placed in the conference (overall standings) starting with last B1G title (shared) in '67. this includes ties for placement:
1st - 1
3rd - 4
4th - 4
5th - 6
6th - 9
7th - 7
8th - 5
9th - 4
10th - 9 (5 times in last place)
11th - 2 (1 time in last place)

So, not great, but I still think 'wretched' is over-doing it. Gopher football has been an average to below-average program. I think that is the frustrating part. If they finished in last place every year, more fans would have just given up. But, they show flashes of competence, with the occasional winning season, often enough to keep fans hopeful.

SON, I woke up grouchy. Instead of kicking the dogs,... Since 2011, the Gophers have an average 5th place finish in the B1G West with early Legends and Leaders data extrapolated.

B1G WEST AVERAGE OVERALL & CONFERENCE STANDING 2011-2017 C.jpg
 

I think Kill did a fine job of getting the academics in good shape.
There was some smoke around Kill and definitely Claeys with some players having sexual misconduct issues.
We saw last fall that Fleck does not hesitate to hold players accountable for classroom and off the field behavior, whereas my perception is that Claeys did not do the same.

What Heracles wrote in post #23 is a pretty accurate take on the whole thing.
PJ held players accountable that he didn't recruit. One could perceive that as he only did it to run them off so he could bring in more of "his" guys earlier just as easily as saying he is holding them to a higher standard. We shall see how he does in handling things in the future. As an on field example, if Tanner M is the starting QB and he drops a snap and then bends down to pick it up and loses it, will he get benched for the entire rest of the game? An off the field one would be this incident that has been discussed here about the credit card. If it is all true, will that player be held out of x number of games or even kicked off the team?
My perception on Claeys and how he handled the incident is different, because he was a first time ever head coach. I believe had he been given a chance, he would have done more to prevent those types of things from happening in the future. That he learned an awful lot about how to handle things as the head coach that he didn't know of before his one season. He had a good idea about the football part of it and learned quite a bit about the off the field stuff from Kill, but until in the position of HC, he didn't know everything just yet. He would have, given time, been able to create a program that would have continued to build on the success he was part of with Kill both on the field and off.
Every D1 program is looking for an edge to obtain the best talent they can. All do it in a little different way, but in the end are all very similar, in what they are trying to accomplish and that is to win football games. Read the article on Brohm in the other thread. It talks about similar things that PJ is doing, just doing it in a different way. To say PJ has some innovative never before seen program just isn't accurate in my view. He certainly knows how to promote it and sell it to players and their parents. Time will tell if he can make it be successful at this level.
 

Past history of moving up when a coach does well

Oh, you mean the one example of a coach moving to a different college across all revenue sports combined in the last 70 years? Good call!
 


Oh, you mean the one example of a coach moving to a different college across all revenue sports combined in the last 70 years? Good call!
It's not my fault that only one coach in 50 years did well enough to take a better offer.
Needless to say, Fleck already showed he's willing to move up when the grass gets greener on the other side of the fence. I'm not naive enough to imagine Minnesota is the top of the chain.
And if Fleck isn't doing well...he'll be removed in five years.
The way he stays at Minnesota is if he does a Glen Mason and produces 8-10 wins per season and gets second tier bowl games. If he does that he may be here for 10 years.
 

It's not my fault that only one coach in 50 years did well enough to take a better offer.

First of all, it's 70, not 50. And this fact invalidates your entire premise - you're predicting something will happen based on a "past history" that doesn't exist.

Needless to say, Fleck already showed he's willing to move up when the grass gets greener on the other side of the fence.

As does almost every person in every career line. I mean, we almost quadrupled his pay. Who wouldn't take that?

I'm not naive enough to imagine Minnesota is the top of the chain.

Minnesota can be the top of the chain (at the college level) if it wants to be. The difference between Fleck and previous coaches is that we finally decided to pay a competitive salary and get a coach that other schools at or above our level would actually want. If we want to, we can match any salary he would get anywhere else at the college level. There is no inherent reason why he would want to move on - unless the NFL came calling. I don't think his style would work at that level and he would be foolish to pursue it.
 

Some have developed and perpetuate this narrative that Kill/Claeys were running a loose ship academically and socially, and PJ had to come in and repair all of that. That's just false. Kill and Co. always emphasized academics first, and were very concerned with developing these kids into good men, to the point of accepting them all as family and bringing them into his home. Many players stated that Kill and his wife were like father and mother figures that would do anything for them any any time. It's actually very similar to what PJ emphasizes, they just didn't use such strong rhetoric and didn't make them wear collared shirts and dictate which seat they sat in the classroom. Numerous players would gush over what Kill and his wife did for them as people, not football players, and claimed to owe them a debt that could never possibly be repaid.

If I remember right, Kill took the team to a level academically (and in the field as well, by the way) that hasn't been there for decades, if ever. He laid the groundwork for the kids to buy into PJs philosophy (upperclassman were already used to being upheld to stringent academic standards).

I just can't wrap my head around constant comments like these. Why does everything PJ does have to be proof of the ineptitude of the previous staff (which is laughable considering where they brought this program, and are solely responsible for the facilities Fleck is taking full advantage of)? They can both be staffs that helped kids out, even if the processes werent identical. It's not a mutually exclusive situation.

Taking a few kids that made a stupid drunken decision, and trying to skew Kill and Co as enablers of violence, truency, etc is pretty ridiculous. Let's hope some kid(s) don't go rouge on Fleck and do something stupid (he's already suspended multiple players for drug use....why isn't that a reflection of poor culture?). If they do, I sure hope we hold his feet to fire as well, and not be blinded by the smooth talk.

Don't kid yourself, Fleck's approach is a conscious decision to obtain an advantage over other programs, just as much as any other coach. It's PR/marketing. He's not running an after school program for underpriveledged kids. I think of it in the same way as a corporation that says "10% of our profits go to cause X." The end to those means isn't necessarily because they're that passionate about that cause....they know it sells, builds brand recognition/loyalty. He's even stooped to dragging his kids through the media to help his cause, for which we love to berate politicians and other public figureheads. But, when he does, he's an amazing, selfless family man.

He's a great guy and coach. But let's not turn this into a Jim Jones kool-aid scenario and buy everything he says in the media hook-line-and sinker. A little skepticism is always healthy.

There was a large contingent of Kill/Claeys football players essentially having drunken (consensual, usually) g@ngbang parties. Let's not act like the night the allegations occurred was the first time anything like that had happened. It was (and still might be) normal. That's not a situation that makes good men. In America people are allowed to do whatever they want sexually. But let's not act like a culture that normalizes that kind of thing is always on the up and up. I was a student (and was pretty well connected) during the Claeys/Kill years and heard a lot of interesting (not illegal) things about the football team's social habits.

These kind of things still might be happening with Fleck's squad. But things like the etiquette nights, the "it's on us" campaign, and various speakers lead me to believe it has been curbed some. These guys are still partying their asses off, hooking up and acting like college students, but I'd like to think it's in a healthier way than it was in the past.
 

First of all, it's 70, not 50. And this fact invalidates your entire premise - you're predicting something will happen based on a "past history" that doesn't exist.



As does almost every person in every career line. I mean, we almost quadrupled his pay. Who wouldn't take that?



Minnesota can be the top of the chain (at the college level) if it wants to be. The difference between Fleck and previous coaches is that we finally decided to pay a competitive salary and get a coach that other schools at or above our level would actually want. If we want to, we can match any salary he would get anywhere else at the college level. There is no inherent reason why he would want to move on - unless the NFL came calling. I don't think his style would work at that level and he would be foolish to pursue it.

#Paycut per PJ. IALTO
 



Maverick: I see people saying over and over that everything is great and recruiting is great and that the natty championship...even a Western Division championship is a done-deal waiting just around the corner right over the rainbow. Glad you know that saying something over and over does not make it true...on any side of the equation. Works both ways. We need a little balance, don't you think? Time will tell. That's the deal in real life.

We aren’t talking balance but momentum. According to physics it continues in the same direction. You can add the exaggeration if you want, but the momentum is going in the right direction.


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That's not a situation that makes good men.

I love the virtue signaling that whatever happens in your bedroom is a reflection of who you are as a person. The "best" person you know might be into group sex, BDSM, watersports, etc. - and you'd have absolutely no idea.
 

First of all, it's 70, not 50. And this fact invalidates your entire premise - you're predicting something will happen based on a "past history" that doesn't exist.



As does almost every person in every career line. I mean, we almost quadrupled his pay. Who wouldn't take that?



Minnesota can be the top of the chain (at the college level) if it wants to be. The difference between Fleck and previous coaches is that we finally decided to pay a competitive salary and get a coach that other schools at or above our level would actually want. If we want to, we can match any salary he would get anywhere else at the college level. There is no inherent reason why he would want to move on - unless the NFL came calling. I don't think his style would work at that level and he would be foolish to pursue it.
What history has Minnesota shown to indicate they will pay coaches an top tier salary?
You are certainly welcome to your opinion. I happen to think the window on Fleck is about 5 years.
 

Past history of moving up when a coach does well and getting fired when a coach does poorly. In either case, it will surprise me if Fleck is here in another five years.

I think it takes a tremendous amount of energy to change a culture like PJ is in the process of doing. If he can recruit the players that will win championships then I think PJ is here for the long term. It will have taken a tremendous effort to accomplish his goals, so leaving it to start all over some where else doesnt make a lot of sense. I think if he leaves it won't be on his terms.
 



There was a large contingent of Kill/Claeys football players essentially having drunken (consensual, usually) g@ngbang parties.
A large contingent?
How many were kicked out versus how many were stellar students?
You are exaggerating and using hyperbole rather than being honest.
 


There was a large contingent of Kill/Claeys football players essentially having drunken (consensual, usually) g@ngbang parties. Let's not act like the night the allegations occurred was the first time anything like that had happened. It was (and still might be) normal. That's not a situation that makes good men. In America people are allowed to do whatever they want sexually. But let's not act like a culture that normalizes that kind of thing is always on the up and up. I was a student (and was pretty well connected) during the Claeys/Kill years and heard a lot of interesting (not illegal) things about the football team's social habits.

These kind of things still might be happening with Fleck's squad. But things like the etiquette nights, the "it's on us" campaign, and various speakers lead me to believe it has been curbed some. These guys are still partying their asses off, hooking up and acting like college students, but I'd like to think it's in a healthier way than it was in the past.

So weird the kids today want to go back to the Victorian era. Remember to GoPro your consensual drunken escapades, kids.
 

I think it takes a tremendous amount of energy to change a culture like PJ is in the process of doing. If he can recruit the players that will win championships then I think PJ is here for the long term. It will have taken a tremendous effort to accomplish his goals, so leaving it to start all over some where else doesnt make a lot of sense. I think if he leaves it won't be on his terms.
Maybe, but he left Western Michigan to move up. I can see him leaving Minnesota to move up. So far no one has considered Minnesota to be their top destination point. Nearly every coach came here to see their career die. Look at the long list of coaches who ended their head coaching career coaching the Gophers. It's pretty sad.
 

We aren’t talking balance but momentum. According to physics it continues in the same direction. You can add the exaggeration if you want, but the momentum is going in the right direction.


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Momentum is measured. Our momentum is not going in the right direction. Theoretically, we might see something in the horizon, but it's not really accurate to say that you're going momentum when you lost more games than the previous season.
 

I love the virtue signaling that whatever happens in your bedroom is a reflection of who you are as a person. The "best" person you know might be into group sex, BDSM, watersports, etc. - and you'd have absolutely no idea.

I love the idea that I'm not allowed to have opinions on other people's preferences. You can do whatever you want and I can judge you for it. It's a free country. But generally people's likes and dislikes are correlated with their personality. Lets not act like what somebody does in the privacy of their bedroom doesn't affect who they are.
 

I think it takes a tremendous amount of energy to change a culture like PJ is in the process of doing. If he can recruit the players that will win championships then I think PJ is here for the long term. It will have taken a tremendous effort to accomplish his goals, so leaving it to start all over some where else doesnt make a lot of sense. I think if he leaves it won't be on his terms.

A destination job is only a destination job until someone decides it's not.

A not-destination job is only a not-destination job until someone decides that it is.

Iowa has been extremely fortunate to have had two coaches decide for nearly four decades that Iowa City was their final home. Despite what Hawkeye fans say, that doesn't make it a destination job any more than the Minnesota job is. All it takes is the right coach to say he likes it in the Twin Cities - the school, the salary, the administration, the metro area, and the opportunity to be successful. And, of course, the school to like him right back.
 

Don't forget the wives have a say about it.
 

I love the idea that I'm not allowed to have opinions on other people's preferences. You can do whatever you want and I can judge you for it. It's a free country. But generally people's likes and dislikes are correlated with their personality. Lets not act like what somebody does in the privacy of their bedroom doesn't affect who they are.

You are absolutely allowed to have an opinion on other people's preferences. We are also allowed to have an opinion on your opinion or more importantly the fact that you have an opinion. The fact that this simple step in logic is lost on you is baffling.

You can have an opinion on what you want and we can judge you for that opinion. It's a free country.
 

One thing I do want to point out for any that are not aware (my wife teaches at the U) is that our student athletes do the things that PJ preaches in the classroom: They sit in the front row, they pay attention, they don’t mess around on their phones... The kids we are getting seem to be disciplined (much more so than I am), respectful, good human beings that I am proud to have represent our school and state (this includes players from the previous regime that have bought into PJs vision). I liked the lunch pail mentality that Kill brought, I appreciated Sawvel and Claeys’ ability to coach kids up, but I believe there was a ceiling to where they could have built our program to, and with PJ that ceiling is a national championship. I believe PJ is the best recruiter we’ve had in my lifetime, and I’m excited to see just where this boat goes!

?
 

Nice little bump there! AND a good post too!
 




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