STrib: Seth Green shifts positions as Gophers' quarterback battle down to three

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MaxyJR1 said:
No, it's saying that Fleck wanted to red-shirt guys for the future last year. If he recruits someone and they prove to be the starter so be it, but year one for coaches is always a throw away year for needing to win.
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Only for coaches who are insecure and have to inflate their importance to a program.
 


I would never complain about a QB, OL, or DL player red-shirting.... even if they are good enough to play as a true freshman.


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Look, if a coach wants to take a long-term view toward building a program, that is perfectly legitimate. Just be honest about it.

If Morgan was the 'best' QB on the roster last year, but they held him out of competition to save a red-shirt year, be honest about it.

The fans are paying real money for tickets. They don't get a rebate for a "throw-away" year. The businesses that advertise on the TV and radio broadcasts are paying real money for ad rates. They don't get a rebate for a "throw-away" year.

The whole concept of a throw-away year is BS in my book. The coaches - every season - should be doing whatever they can - within reason - to win games. If that means you burn a red-shirt to play a kid, because that kid gives the team a better chance to win, you burn the red-shirt.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
Look, if a coach wants to take a long-term view toward building a program, that is perfectly legitimate. Just be honest about it.

If Morgan was the 'best' QB on the roster last year, but they held him out of competition to save a red-shirt year, be honest about it.

The fans are paying real money for tickets. They don't get a rebate for a "throw-away" year. The businesses that advertise on the TV and radio broadcasts are paying real money for ad rates. They don't get a rebate for a "throw-away" year.

The whole concept of a throw-away year is BS in my book. The coaches - every season - should be doing whatever they can - within reason - to win games. If that means you burn a red-shirt to play a kid, because that kid gives the team a better chance to win, you burn the red-shirt.
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I like your take but it’s missing something...logic. Ever heard of the three pigs? They all build houses, one real quick because he was living for the now, the other was more patient and gathered better materials and made a pretty good house, and the third took the time and spent the money and energy to build a sturdy brick house. There are literally thousands of scenarios where it’s better to sacrifice now to see a bigger payoff later.

I think fleck has been pretty clear that he is playing the long game and he’s been pretty up front about it. I have no problem with redshirting a qb for the sake of the future , especially since he’s been pretty clear that was the plan.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Look, if a coach wants to take a long-term view toward building a program, that is perfectly legitimate. Just be honest about it.

If Morgan was the 'best' QB on the roster last year, but they held him out of competition to save a red-shirt year, be honest about it.

The fans are paying real money for tickets. They don't get a rebate for a "throw-away" year. The businesses that advertise on the TV and radio broadcasts are paying real money for ad rates. They don't get a rebate for a "throw-away" year.

The whole concept of a throw-away year is BS in my book. The coaches - every season - should be doing whatever they can - within reason - to win games. If that means you burn a red-shirt to play a kid, because that kid gives the team a better chance to win, you burn the red-shirt.
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Honesty doesn't pay in a public role like that, it just doesn't.

I think most everyone who listened last year, PJ outright talked about guys who were great, but he wanted to redshirt to help with their maturing and depth. ... I think he was telling anyone who is listening closely.

Maybe i'm not getting your concept but I think your business thing is off. If you buy a car in its first year of productions, you're risking a lot of problems that aren't there later.... just how it works.
 

Why play Douglas, then, (or CAB) if we're going to use a logic argument. We had other WRs available to play, if it was a throwaway year. Why waste a year of their eligibility?

Tanner will be better for redshirting but that's a totally different argument than if he was or will be better than DC or CR (as an upperclassmen). We can believe it but until they play in real games it's all hopeful speculation.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Look, if a coach wants to take a long-term view toward building a program, that is perfectly legitimate. Just be honest about it.

If Morgan was the 'best' QB on the roster last year, but they held him out of competition to save a red-shirt year, be honest about it.

The fans are paying real money for tickets. They don't get a rebate for a "throw-away" year. The businesses that advertise on the TV and radio broadcasts are paying real money for ad rates. They don't get a rebate for a "throw-away" year.

The whole concept of a throw-away year is BS in my book. The coaches - every season - should be doing whatever they can - within reason - to win games. If that means you burn a red-shirt to play a kid, because that kid gives the team a better chance to win, you burn the red-shirt.
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Overall I agree with your post. The one point I'd add is the coaches who take into consideration what is best for the player. Some really need that redshirt year.
 



LaXGoph said:
I like your take but it’s missing something...logic. Ever heard of the three pigs? They all build houses, one real quick because he was living for the now, the other was more patient and gathered better materials and made a pretty good house, and the third took the time and spent the money and energy to build a sturdy brick house. There are literally thousands of scenarios where it’s better to sacrifice now to see a bigger payoff later.

I think fleck has been pretty clear that he is playing the long game and he’s been pretty up front about it. I have no problem with redshirting a qb for the sake of the future , especially since he’s been pretty clear that was the plan.
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Good take. Putting a freshman QB in behind last year's line, would be foolish. Very few freshman have the maturity to handle the mental and physical aspect of the game; on top of that defenses who are teeing off on us would possibly be a career ender. Even if he didn't take a lot of hits, constantly hearing footsteps is a real issue and usually results in bad habits (like the Yips or tucking too early).

Far better to wait as maturity and practice alieviate most of the freshman type issues. He may have been ready, But with that line, it would have been a high risk, low reward proposition.
 

LaXGoph said:
I like your take but it’s missing something...logic. Ever heard of the three pigs? They all build houses, one real quick because he was living for the now, the other was more patient and gathered better materials and made a pretty good house, and the third took the time and spent the money and energy to build a sturdy brick house. There are literally thousands of scenarios where it’s better to sacrifice now to see a bigger payoff later.

I think fleck has been pretty clear that he is playing the long game and he’s been pretty up front about it. I have no problem with redshirting a qb for the sake of the future , especially since he’s been pretty clear that was the plan.
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Interesting take. I like it! I get what Son is saying, but if you build for the future, the program will actually get stronger faster for the long haul and bring in more fans. I totally get it though that when you don't play the best players when they are freshman as fans pay a far amount of money to attend games. We had to suck it up last year and I'm hoping that I'll get dividends from it.
 

As Gopher fans I was able to weather through a crappy year in hopes of what the future may bring. Things gotta change at Minnesota and if Fleck thinks this is the way to do it then I think he deserves a fair shot.
 

LaXGoph said:
I like your take but it’s missing something...logic. Ever heard of the three pigs? They all build houses, one real quick because he was living for the now, the other was more patient and gathered better materials and made a pretty good house, and the third took the time and spent the money and energy to build a sturdy brick house. There are literally thousands of scenarios where it’s better to sacrifice now to see a bigger payoff later.

I think fleck has been pretty clear that he is playing the long game and he’s been pretty up front about it. I have no problem with redshirting a qb for the sake of the future , especially since he’s been pretty clear that was the plan.
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I agree that he's been upfront. He's also not the only coach that built for the future. This concept that ONLY PJ Fleck has the future in mind is just not accurate. We'll see if he's more or less successful doing so, but every coach we've had, save maybe Brewster, has built for the future. Fleck has added additional hurdles which "sets him apart", but this concept is neither new nor unique.
 



A "throw away" year for a coach just gets him a year closer to being extended so he will have enough guaranteed years left on his contract to be able to continue to recruit. If he can insure that he will need that extension by year #3, he has kicked the butt of the people who hired him.
A throw away year for a scholarship player means that player has just thrown away 25% of the eligibility that player has to play on game day Saturdays in a college stadium.

I would say that it is far easier for a coach to throw away a year by red shirting players who could help the team win than it is for a college football player to play on a team throwing away a year for the possible good of the future of the coach. A coach who throws away a year for what ever reason gets paid in full for that season. For a junior or senior player on the team...a season is a "wasting asset..." One entire year of a college football career that is thrown away. By year # 3 IF the team is not winning in conference play: some fans who were very patient and understanding in years #1 & #2 suddenly become far less under standing in years 3, 4 and 5.

It seems to me that the progression of a team playing and a coach building a future for the program is happening as near as William's Arena and starts demonstrating what happens with some fans when the "throw away''...or "thrown away" seasons happen too fast and too frequently. Time waits for neither player...or coach...or fan. Injuries happen. Stuff happens. Pretty soon year # 5 has come and gone. Maybe even year #6 and the promised pay off of building for the future has not been realized. And some fans are calling for a new coach...again. The average length of time a football coach has a job at the U of M ever since Murray Warmath has been under five seasons. Time is, indeed a wasting asset. But it is much more rewarding for a coach than for a player or the fan.

Time will tell, I guess. But, time passes "much too quickly..." without enough meaningful wins...and things don't bode too well for the players...the fans OR the coach. But, at least, the coach HAS become very rich in the process.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
There is no doubt in my mind that Morgan could have been the starter last year, but there was no reason to hinder the future of the program in playing him. This year it will be the best QB on the field no matter what. There is no reason to sit the best option.
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Morgan may be better this year than what we saw last year at QB. But that doesn't prove he would have been better last year.
 

Rescooter said:
Good take. Putting a freshman QB in behind last year's line, would be foolish. Very few freshman have the maturity to handle the mental and physical aspect of the game; on top of that defenses who are teeing off on us would possibly be a career ender. Even if he didn't take a lot of hits, constantly hearing footsteps is a real issue and usually results in bad habits (like the Yips or tucking too early).

Far better to wait as maturity and practice alieviate most of the freshman type issues. He may have been ready, But with that line, it would have been a high risk, low reward proposition.
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For as unimaginative/bland as the offense was last season, I don't see how putting a true FR behind that line would have been a bad thing. No team was able to put that many hits on any of the QB's because we just didn't throw it that much and a majority of the throws that were attempted were basic throws without much of a read taking place by the QB. Now that could be because the QB's who played couldn't handle anymore than that, but Morgan as a FR could have done the same thing.
 

John Galt said:
Morgan may be better this year than what we saw last year at QB. But that doesn't prove he would have been better last year.
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This is a really tough decision.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that Morgan would have been equal to Connor Rhoda last year (or even slightly better). I know that's a big IF, but just for the sake of conversation.

Let's say the staff sees Morgan and thinks that he really isn't ready as a freshman. He could be as good as Rhoda, but he wouldn't be incredibly successful. Our OL struggles, our WRs struggle, it's just not going to be an incredibly difficult spot for a freshman QB. At the same time, the staff thinks Morgan could really develop into a good QB.

There is a legit argument that you compare Morgan's 5th season vs. Morgan's 1st season and NOT to compare Morgan vs. Rhoda/Croft. This analysis goes out the window if Morgan is clearly the best option and ready to play.

At the end of the day, I don't think gaining experience is really that beneficial if the situation is really tough (like ours would have been last year). I don't think Demry's experience in 2015 helped him last year. So, I don't think that he is necessarily any less ready this year than if he had played 30% of the snaps last year. I also don't like the argument that I've seen on here that you don't worry about redshirting Morgan because we will probably get a better recruit in 2019/2020. That's silly. We have no idea what's going to happen. Let's assume Tanner is a really solid college QB, we will all be grateful in 2021 that he was RS.

You can only judge the decision making based on what we know at the time. For example, I don't think it made Kill's decision to burn Connor Mayes' redshirt any wiser because Mayes never ended up playing 4 years of football.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
This is a really tough decision.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that Morgan would have been equal to Connor Rhoda last year (or even slightly better). I know that's a big IF, but just for the sake of conversation.

Let's say the staff sees Morgan and thinks that he really isn't ready as a freshman. He could be as good as Rhoda, but he wouldn't be incredibly successful. Our OL struggles, our WRs struggle, it's just not going to be an incredibly difficult spot for a freshman QB. At the same time, the staff thinks Morgan could really develop into a good QB.

There is a legit argument that you compare Morgan's 5th season vs. Morgan's 1st season and NOT to compare Morgan vs. Rhoda/Croft. This analysis goes out the window if Morgan is clearly the best option and ready to play.

At the end of the day, I don't think gaining experience is really that beneficial if the situation is really tough (like ours would have been last year). I don't think Demry's experience in 2015 helped him last year. So, I don't think that he is necessarily any less ready this year than if he had played 30% of the snaps last year. I also don't like the argument that I've seen on here that you don't worry about redshirting Morgan because we will probably get a better recruit in 2019/2020. That's silly. We have no idea what's going to happen. Let's assume Tanner is a really solid college QB, we will all be grateful in 2021 that he was RS.

You can only judge the decision making based on what we know at the time. For example, I don't think it made Kill's decision to burn Connor Mayes' redshirt any wiser because Mayes never ended up playing 4 years of football.
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I have very limited sample size but Tanner Morgan is clearly improved and taller this spring than last. Totally fine with him being red shirted last year. But my reason is because in my one day last year he was clearly the fourth string QB. I'm not at all sure he is the best QB this spring but he is better than he was last spring. ...thoughts for the equation
 

What could have been had Philip Nelson been red shirted?

Morgan not being red shirted last year would have been a lost cause for reasons Bob_L just stated. But, it is really hard to tell. It depends on attitude and how you handle failure. Philip Nelson didn't handle it well.

IMHO, Vicious Vic, V-Cap'n Morgan, and ZickA are the best three options at QB we've seen in a long time.
 

hungan1 said:
What could have been had Philip Nelson been red shirted?

Morgan not being red shirted last year would have been a lost cause for reasons Bob_L just stated. But, it is really hard to tell. It depends on attitude and how you handle failure. Philip Nelson didn't handle it well.

IMHO, Vicious Vic, V-Cap'n Morgan, and ZickA are the best three options at QB we've seen in a long time.
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I wish I saw what you do in these guys but Conor Rhoda was far superior to my eyes doing the same things last year in the spring. Marqueis Gray spring game 10X, M Gray Iowa, Adam Weber, P. Nelson, Mitch Leidner all way more impressive to me. But it is hard to judge until they actually play tackle football and a very big part of the equation is how they are coached...do you adapt and use what they do best in games? That was a factor last year. If Vic V doesn't get the opportunity to run we aren't using his abilities to compete. And until that happens I don't see the possibility of a more impressive QB than those recent mentioned guys.
 

I think we see all 3 play and all 3 at least marginally competent. A QB step forward. Would not be surprised to see a new H-back take wildcat snaps. Snap to Seth pass to VV. They have some ways to be productively creative this year we have never seen in Gopherland.
 

Who will emerge out of the three?

Cap'n Morgan (lists 6' 2" 205 lbs) need a little bit of rum and meat on him.
Vicious Vic (lists 6' 1" 215 lbs) has a cannon arm, did someone say he drop weight?.
ZickA at 6' 3" 215 lbs (closest in size to Mitch Leidner who was 6' 4" 230 lbs)

Can't wait for the Spring Game. Yeah, serving up some Mojo Plays instead of RUTMs will be great. How much of that will be held back to keep it vanilla? Will we see a glimpse of what our passing game will be like?
 

hungan1 said:
IMHO, Vicious Vic, V-Cap'n Morgan, and ZickA are the best three options at QB we've seen in a long time.
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What is this opinion based on?


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hungan1 said:
A senior moment. [emoji782]
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I'm very excited about VV. I'm much more excited about TM than I was when all reports had him pegged at about 5'2". ZA seems like he has good potential - especially for a walk-on.

So, I get the enthusiasm. However, even us Homers need to slow down a little. None of these kids have played D1 Football, and only 1 has ever played CFB at any level. They might turn out to be "all that", but at this point we just don't know. Saying they are our best three options at QB in a long time is simply wishful thinking. I hope you are right, tho. We need it.


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hungan1 said:
Who will emerge out of the three?

Cap'n Morgan (lists 6' 2" 205 lbs) need a little bit of rum and meat on him.
Vicious Vic (lists 6' 1" 215 lbs) has a cannon arm, did someone say he drop weight?.
ZickA at 6' 3" 215 lbs (closest in size to Mitch Leidner who was 6' 4" 230 lbs)

Can't wait for the Spring Game. Yeah, serving up some Mojo Plays instead of RUTMs will be great. How much of that will be held back to keep it vanilla? Will we see a glimpse of what our passing game will be like?
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Considering the reports out of practice are locked up tighter than a dick’s hatband we will see nothing. And what little we do see is likely to be misleading because the defense is vanilla, the QBs are off limits, and key players are being held out for health reasons.

What were the takeaways from the last few spring games - Johannesson was the next Alstott/Riggins/James/Hillis/Hoge and that nice DC>Still go route completion that made us think we might have a nice passing game...
 

GFBfan said:
Saying that means Morgan will be the best QB we will recruit in the next 3 years. I don't believe that, as I think PJ is going to recruit even better QB prospects in the coming years. Had Morgan been better than Croft or Rhoda, he should have played. If Zack Annexstad turns out to be the best QB, after this spring and the fall, then he should be named the starter. This saving players for the future talk is BS.
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No it doesn't. PJ can recruit a player with higher upside long term for next year. That doesn't mean he's a better QB as a true Freshman than someone who is a RS Sophomore.
 

I've seen a lot of stuff in my time perusing this board....but the BS is really getting deep in this one.

First, Tanner Morgan didn't play last year because he also sucked, and was nowhere near ready physically. Let's just make that clear. If Fleck thought the team would've been significantly better, he would've played him.

Second, nobody failed to grasp the fact that we didn't have any decent QBs last year. Is that really believable, that there were different schools of thought on that? Some thinking the QBs were great? The fact not being grasped by a large number of folks is that a decent QB wasn't required to get last year's team bowl eligible. Put that blame on Rhoda and Croft all you want. But, no matter the scapegoat, the season was a failure by any genuine standard. Not sure why we can't be honest about that.
 

I accept I'm in the minority on this viewpoint - but I just don't believe in wholesale red-shirting.

There are no guarantees in life - or in sports. You say "we need to red-shirt QB "A" so he can have four more years of eligibility. Sounds great - until QB "A" blows out his knee next year, or decides to transfer, or the coach recruits a better QB and QB "A" winds up on the sidelines holding a clipboard.

By all means, if a player is just not ready physically or mentally to play D1 FB, then a red-shirt is warranted. But, if that player is ready to play, then play him.

Maybe Morgan wasn't ready last year. Maybe Rhoda and Croft were better. We'll never know. Maybe Morgan is one of those 'gamer' types who, put in the thick of the action, would have risen to the challenge. Maybe Morgan completes a couple more passes - the team wins one more game, and goes to a bowl game.

Some of you - if given the choice - may say they were not willing to trade a year of Morgan's eligibility for another win. Me, I make that trade. Because there are no guarantees.
 

It's hard to see any scenario this fall where we aren't just repeating the 2017 season with younger, less experienced players at most positions.
Until this team shows us differently, we're looking at games which mimic the Maryland debacle of 2017.
Hurrah for all you optimists. One year you will be rewarded, but I don't see 2018 as that year.
 

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