Alarming facts and stats inside Richard Pitino's 30-58 conference record

Donate To GopherHole
short ornery norwegian said:
I think it's possible that next year will be better - but it is also possible that it won't be better.

For all the talk of injuries, this is still a D1 basketball program in a major conference. The head coach is responsible for the team he puts out on the court. And - even with the limitations of the current group - I see a lot of mistakes and missed execution that has almost nothing to do with talent. defensive positioning - boxing out on rebounds - making good passes - good shot selection - running an offense that doesn't wind up with guys jacking up bad shots with :02 left on the shot clock. That is not because of injuries - it's because of execution. Which is on the players - but it's also on the coaching staff.

At the risk of sounding cynical - if Pitino is a good coach when he has a healthy, talented team, then anyone is a good coach in that situation. You learn more about a team by watching how they handle adversity. In the Pitino era, the Gophers have not done a good job of handling adversity. I don't think that's a coincidence.
Click to expand...

The probability is (barring critical losses) that next year almost has to be better. Nevertheless, even if it is, that doesn't invalidate your other points.

Putting aside the issue of whether Pitino will or will not be here next year, the real question for discussion is how do each of us see the future of this program in Pitino's hands? A very optimistic view might be that he has a Scott Drew of Baylor type of career here (struggles in the early years followed by mostly good-to-very good seasons afterwards). Or, will he be like another son (Keno Davis) of an accomplished coach (Tom Davis) who has had a few good years in a generally unimpressive 10 year career?
 

scools12 said:
I guess a potential NIT run could be considered great.
Click to expand...

What do you do for fun? Obviously being a fan of Gopher basketball is not one of them.

I think Pitino is in trouble unless he has an NCAA team next year. I am a Pitino supporter, but I think that needs to be the standard for next year. My guess is that we see a significant spring recruit or two.

The systems Pitino employs come from coaching under Donovan and Pitino Sr.- both coaches who attracted lots of big time talent and their systems are geared to that. Especially on the defensive side -athletes and size are required. We had it. And then we didn't.
 

bga1 said:
The systems Pitino employs come from coaching under Donovan and Pitino Sr.- both coaches who attracted lots of big time talent and their systems are geared to that. Especially on the defensive side -athletes and size are required. We had it. And then we didn't.
Click to expand...

Isn't everyone's system dependent on that? As the late, great Dean Smith once said when reflecting back on his career:

"I call a timeout and diagram a play. Now, whether the ball goes in the hoop or not, well, that's where recruiting comes in."

I don't think that you quite understand that a defense of Pitino like this is not a ringing endorsement of his abilities as a coach. Yes, Dean Smith had elite talent but his teams performed among the highest levels of the teams with elite talent.

Let's imagine this defense applied to other vocations or activities:

Doctor: I would have had a much better record of curing patients if my patients weren't so damn sick.

Professor: Our school would have much better scores on the LSAT/GMAT/GRE/MCAT if our students were all of Harvard caliber.

Actor: If all my scripts were great parts, I would have won more awards.

Guy reflecting back on his love life: If all my past women were really hot, I would have tried harder.
 

cjbfbp said:
Isn't everyone's system dependent on that? As the late, great Dean Smith once said when reflecting back on his career:

"I call a timeout and diagram a play. Now, whether the ball goes in the hoop or not, well, that's where recruiting comes in."
Click to expand...

Every system is dependent on talent. Some more than others. Obviously the pros run different systems than at the college level because of the talent issue. But you raise an excellent point! Perhaps Smith would agree that losing 4 of 6 starters would cause a problem as to whether the ball goes in the hoop or not....
 

bga1 said:
What do you do for fun? Obviously being a fan of Gopher basketball is not one of them.
Click to expand...

OK, now we've moved onto, it's your duty to be optimistic when you post on this site. For the love of pete.
 


Bad Gopher said:
OK, now we've moved onto, it's your duty to be optimistic when you post on this site. For the love of pete.
Click to expand...

It could be that there is a difference between being bothered by what has happened this year and projecting it forward that next year will be NIT and people will be thrilled. To me that's not fun. But everyone has their own way to look at life. I am a glass half full guy. I confess.
 

The issue I have with Pitino is simply the inability to recruit depth. I know it's hard with so many D1 teams and constant ability to transfer, but his recruiting needs to improve. Maybe this year's incoming class will be the change going forward.

You just can't miss on kids at this level. With Mason leaving other players have to improve exponentially for this team to be better next year.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
The issue I have with Pitino is simply the inability to recruit depth. I know it's hard with so many D1 teams and constant ability to transfer, but his recruiting needs to improve. Maybe this year's incoming class will be the change going forward.

You just can't miss on kids at this level. With Mason leaving other players have to improve exponentially for this team to be better next year.
Click to expand...

Agreed. He took too many risks early in his tenure on talent (Gas and Konate both super raw) and on character and he paid a price for it in these past few years. The last three classes have been solid with the exception of Dorsey who had a ton of talent but no character.
 

Those last 2 posts made me LOL.
every coach takes risks, some work out some don't.
We had plenty of depth the day before Curry tore up his knee.

Please look at the Notre Dame team right now if you don't think injury has a negative effect on a team(depth).
 



MaxyJR1 said:
The issue I have with Pitino is simply the inability to recruit depth. I know it's hard with so many D1 teams and constant ability to transfer, but his recruiting needs to improve. Maybe this year's incoming class will be the change going forward.

You just can't miss on kids at this level. With Mason leaving other players have to improve exponentially for this team to be better next year.
Click to expand...

So one year pitino takes a chance on bakary and gaston and it clearly didnt work out but, just because one year recruiting didnt work out im not sure we should label pitino for life on he cant recruit depth!
 

Bad Gopher said:
Sorry, but that's unlikely. By next season, people will finally be giving Nate Mason the appreciation he deserves as being one of the great scoring point guards in program history. Without him and with a freshman starting at center, the team will almost certainly not make the NCAAs. Even the NIT won't be a certainty. Best case scenario is that we're sitting the following year, in year 7, scratching for the second NCAA appearance in Richard's tenure. As has been discussed, if that's what people had in mind when the U hired him, they had lower expectations than I had.
Click to expand...

I strongly disagree. I think people are really underestimating what we're missing this year and what we will be getting back next year. A rotation of Oturu, Curry, and Stockman is going to be significantly better than a rotation of Konate, Deidhue, and Fitzgerald. Those guys have really held us back this year. I don't care that we haven't seen Oturu or Stockman in the Big Ten yet. Curry alone is better than any of those 3 and Oturu is a big time talent. Getting Amir, Curry, and McBrayer back (he is not even close to being himself right now) will be absolutely huge and more than make up for the loss of Mason, despite how good of a player he is. On top of that, you have to consider the freshman-to-sophomore jump that IW will make. This team is going to be so much deeper and more talented next season and it isn't close.
 

Here's a crazy stat

Despite Gophers' 2nd dreadful season in 3 years, they'll likely have 2 (@ Providence, vs. Alabama) or maybe even 3 (@ Penn State) road-neutral wins over teams that ended up in the NCAA Tournament. To put that in perspective, Dan Monson was 0-44 in such games during his tenure as Gophers coach. Tubby Smith was 13-33 (28.3%), while Pitino currently is 8-25 (24.2%) with this season's NCAA qualifiers pending.
 

gophereric30 said:
So one year pitino takes a chance on bakary and gaston and it clearly didnt work out but, just because one year recruiting didnt work out im not sure we should label pitino for life on he cant recruit depth!
Click to expand...

What have we gotten from the bench for last two years? Enormous drop off.

I'm not calling for him to be fired, but I think he will be gone if no promise shows on the floor next year.
 



MaxyJR1 said:
What have we gotten from the bench for last two years? Enormous drop off.

I'm not calling for him to be fired, but I think he will be gone if no promise shows on the floor next year.
Click to expand...

That's fair. If next year is a struggle and we miss the tournament with a healthy roster, then he should be fired. I'm confident that won't happen though.
 

bga1 said:
Every system is dependent on talent. Some more than others. Obviously the pros run different systems than at the college level because of the talent issue. But you raise an excellent point! Perhaps Smith would agree that losing 4 of 6 starters would cause a problem as to whether the ball goes in the hoop or not....
Click to expand...
Talent is required, but talent must be coached into solid fundamental skill.
If I am to compare the elder Tino with the younger Tino then I have to look at what the elder did at Providence rather than UK or Louisville. How did the elder turn Providence into a legitimate NCAA tournament contender? The same can be done with Donovan.
Great talent doesn't just show up at UMN. Good talent must be coached up to greatness. Can the younger Tino coach kids up? What does the data reveal?
My thought on next season is that Tino needs to bring in better assistant coaching. The offensive movement and defensive help rotation needs to improve. If Tino cannot bring in the coaches capable of coaching up good talent then Tino needs to be fired. I can wait one more year to see if he keeps status quo and goes down with the sinking ship or if he pulls in some assistants who can make the good talent into great talent.
Next year is make or break for Tino.
 

MennoSota said:
Talent is required, but talent must be coached into solid fundamental skill.
If I am to compare the elder Tino with the younger Tino then I have to look at what the elder did at Providence rather than UK or Louisville. How did the elder turn Providence into a legitimate NCAA tournament contender? The same can be done with Donovan.
Great talent doesn't just show up at UMN. Good talent must be coached up to greatness. Can the younger Tino coach kids up? What does the data reveal?
My thought on next season is that Tino needs to bring in better assistant coaching. The offensive movement and defensive help rotation needs to improve. If Tino cannot bring in the coaches capable of coaching up good talent then Tino needs to be fired. I can wait one more year to see if he keeps status quo and goes down with the sinking ship or if he pulls in some assistants who can make the good talent into great talent.
Next year is make or break for Tino.
Click to expand...

Who is this Tino guy?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

MaxyJR1 said:
What have we gotten from the bench for last two years? Enormous drop off.

I'm not calling for him to be fired, but I think he will be gone if no promise shows on the floor next year.
Click to expand...

Maybe you werent real excited about last years bench, but Springs, Curry, mcBrayer, and moments of konate are worlds apart comparing to this year! At least we got something out of them last year. Next year will be fine!
 

bga1 said:
Every system is dependent on talent. Some more than others. Obviously the pros run different systems than at the college level because of the talent issue. But you raise an excellent point! Perhaps Smith would agree that losing 4 of 6 starters would cause a problem as to whether the ball goes in the hoop or not....
Click to expand...

People are not basing their criticism of people off of just this year. The criticism is based off of 5 years of data. Everyone understands the situation of this season and what part that plays in how Pitino is viewed.
 

gophereric30 said:
Maybe you werent real excited about last years bench, but Springs, Curry, mcBrayer, and moments of konate are worlds apart comparing to this year! At least we got something out of them last year. Next year will be fine!
Click to expand...

Springs and McBrayer split starting last year, so we had 2 reliable bench players last year. This year I'm not sure we even had a reliable bench player. That's recruiting and development. I agree on paper next year looks better, but Lynch was a game changer at the rim. I think skill sets will be much better next year across the board. I'm excited for that.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Springs and McBrayer split starting last year, so we had 2 reliable bench players last year. This year I'm not sure we even had a reliable bench player. That's recruiting and development. I agree on paper next year looks better, but Lynch was a game changer at the rim. I think skill sets will be much better next year across the board. I'm excited for that.
Click to expand...

Exactly. This year we get nothing. At this point, sometimes we get nothing out of our starters too. Last year our bench wasnt unbelievable, but they didnt kill us when they were in. Next year SHOULD BE much better.
 

scools12 said:
People are not basing their criticism of people off of just this year. The criticism is based off of 5 years of data. Everyone understands the situation of this season and what part that plays in how Pitino is viewed.
Click to expand...

There would probably be less scrutiny of stuff that happened 2 or 3 years ago if this team had fewer personnel losses and were performing better because of it. Even if we were full strength and ended up falling out of the top 25, going 10-8 or 11-7 in a fairly weak conference, and getting a 7-10 seed in the tournament, which would probably be a disappointment compared to preseason expectations, I don't think there would as much talk about firing him off of back to back tournament appearances and another solid recruiting class coming in,. Likewise, if last year's team had no Lynch, Curry, Coffey, or McBrayer, there would have likely been more talk of firing him, and he may very well have actually gotten fired.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
The issue I have with Pitino is simply the inability to recruit depth. I know it's hard with so many D1 teams and constant ability to transfer, but his recruiting needs to improve. Maybe this year's incoming class will be the change going forward.

You just can't miss on kids at this level. With Mason leaving other players have to improve exponentially for this team to be better next year.
Click to expand...

I completely disagree with this post. You alluded to next year's class, and how do you not see that the depth issue is being addressed with each class? I think it's safe to say that of the seven most recent recruits to commit here, they are all solid depth players. It's possible that some of them won't be great players, but I'd be very surprised if they're not depth players throughout their careers. A good example here is Michael Hurt. A great depth guy to give you spot minutes behind Amir Coffey, not a great 35 minutes per game player. There are so many posters on here who think that depth players are supposed to turn into starters when starters go down. That's absurd. For every one example of a team overcoming major injuries, there are 25 examples of teams completely falling apart.

I think it's fair to argue whether or not he's recruiting talent that will bring the Gophers to the top of the conference, but at this point I don't think it's fair to argue that he's not recruiting depth players. He can't go back in time and undo the bad recruiting mistakes he has made, he can only bring in new recruits.
 

scools12 said:
People are not basing their criticism of people off of just this year. The criticism is based off of 5 years of data. Everyone understands the situation of this season and what part that plays in how Pitino is viewed.
Click to expand...

Yes but the 5 years of data would be a whole lot different without the injuries and the Lynch deal and none of that is within Pitino's control. I think it is close to 100% that we would be talking about 2 straight NCAA teams and looking forward to another next year- but for the misfortunes.
 

GopherHoopsFan said:
I completely disagree with this post. You alluded to next year's class, and how do you not see that the depth issue is being addressed with each class? I think it's safe to say that of the seven most recent recruits to commit here, they are all solid depth players. It's possible that some of them won't be great players, but I'd be very surprised if they're not depth players throughout their careers. A good example here is Michael Hurt. A great depth guy to give you spot minutes behind Amir Coffey, not a great 35 minutes per game player. There are so many posters on here who think that depth players are supposed to turn into starters when starters go down. That's absurd. For every one example of a team overcoming major injuries, there are 25 examples of teams completely falling apart.

I think it's fair to argue whether or not he's recruiting talent that will bring the Gophers to the top of the conference, but at this point I don't think it's fair to argue that he's not recruiting depth players. He can't go back in time and undo the bad recruiting mistakes he has made, he can only bring in new recruits.
Click to expand...

No one disputes that there is going to be some type of drop-off from starters to reserves. The question is the level or extent of the drop-off. If your level of play goes down 10% when the subs are on the floor, you can live with that. If the level of play goes down 50%, that's another kettle of fish. (lutefisk)

You don't need everyone on the bench to be a superstar - you just need guys on the bench who can provide some quality minutes without hurting the team.
I would respectfully claim that one of Pitino's issues is roster management, resulting in overly-large drop-offs when the bench is on the court. Now, the next question becomes - how much of that drop-off is due to talent, and how much is due to coaching?
 

Cayman said:
There would probably be less scrutiny of stuff that happened 2 or 3 years ago if this team had fewer personnel losses and were performing better because of it. Even if we were full strength and ended up falling out of the top 25, going 10-8 or 11-7 in a fairly weak conference, and getting a 7-10 seed in the tournament, which would probably be a disappointment compared to preseason expectations, I don't think there would as much talk about firing him off of back to back tournament appearances and another solid recruiting class coming in,. Likewise, if last year's team had no Lynch, Curry, Coffey, or McBrayer, there would have likely been more talk of firing him, and he may very well have actually gotten fired.
Click to expand...

It this year had produced another NCAA tourney bid there would be no talk of Pitino being fired. The expectations coming off of last year in were probably too high. IMO no way this team was top 15 in the country. More like a borderline top 25.

Either way the injuries and suspension showed how far this program really has to go in year 5 of this regime. Needed everything to go nearly perfect to have a legit chance to meet those high expectations. Some on here think next year will be "great" based on added depth. Simply adding bodies to the roster doesn't guarantee anything. Expecting the 3 freshmen to be big contributors next year is asking a lot. Combine that with the 2 sophomores you have 5 underclassmen in the rotation, Curry coming back from injury and questions regarding what does Stockman offer doesn't seem like much more than a NIT bid at best next year.
 

Keyser Söze said:
I strongly disagree. I think people are really underestimating what we're missing this year and what we will be getting back next year. A rotation of Oturu, Curry, and Stockman is going to be significantly better than a rotation of Konate, Deidhue, and Fitzgerald. Those guys have really held us back this year. I don't care that we haven't seen Oturu or Stockman in the Big Ten yet. Curry alone is better than any of those 3 and Oturu is a big time talent. Getting Amir, Curry, and McBrayer back (he is not even close to being himself right now) will be absolutely huge and more than make up for the loss of Mason, despite how good of a player he is. On top of that, you have to consider the freshman-to-sophomore jump that IW will make. This team is going to be so much deeper and more talented next season and it isn't close.
Click to expand...

You may be right. We just won't know that for sure until we see next year's team on the court. As I have said before, I see a lot of question marks. Multiple players coming back from injuries and/or surgeries. Stockman is an unknown. And counting on true Freshmen to make an impact is a gamble. Oturu could jump right into the lineup and be an impact player from day 1. Or, he might take time to make the transition to a D1 major conference. The other two Freshmen, to be honest, I'll be happy if they contribute anything next year. I see both of them as projects.

bottom line - if you assume the best-case scenario, then sure, things look good. But, to be fair, you have to acknowledge that the best-case scenario may not materialize.

It's like if I went in to meet with my financial planner and said, "the stock market is going to go up 15% a year, so I will be able to retire early." That's great if it works out - but if the stock market only goes up 5% a year, or we have another recessions, then all my plans go out the window.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
No one disputes that there is going to be some type of drop-off from starters to reserves. The question is the level or extent of the drop-off. If your level of play goes down 10% when the subs are on the floor, you can live with that. If the level of play goes down 50%, that's another kettle of fish. (lutefisk)

You don't need everyone on the bench to be a superstar - you just need guys on the bench who can provide some quality minutes without hurting the team.
I would respectfully claim that one of Pitino's issues is roster management, resulting in overly-large drop-offs when the bench is on the court. Now, the next question becomes - how much of that drop-off is due to talent, and how much is due to coaching?
Click to expand...

I agree that this issue is Pitino's alone. That being said, this season is a very unique case which has been magnified by the misses on BK and GD. When you compound that with the fact that we're now relying heavily on two true freshmen and a sophomore who barely played last year, and Fitzgerald who basically has old man knees, well... you get this season.

I'm trying to point out that too many posters are looking at this season through a microscope. I'd argue that Hurt, Harris, and Washington will all have good careers when it's all said and done. We've witnessed them get thrown into the fire under extenuating circumstances, and it's been rough at times. Enough has been said about BK and GD. I guarantee that Pitino will never again recruit a player as bad as either of those two.
 

Keyser Söze said:
I strongly disagree. I think people are really underestimating what we're missing this year and what we will be getting back next year. A rotation of Oturu, Curry, and Stockman is going to be significantly better than a rotation of Konate, Deidhue, and Fitzgerald. Those guys have really held us back this year. I don't care that we haven't seen Oturu or Stockman in the Big Ten yet. Curry alone is better than any of those 3 and Oturu is a big time talent. Getting Amir, Curry, and McBrayer back (he is not even close to being himself right now) will be absolutely huge and more than make up for the loss of Mason, despite how good of a player he is. On top of that, you have to consider the freshman-to-sophomore jump that IW will make. This team is going to be so much deeper and more talented next season and it isn't close.
Click to expand...

This this this this this this this this this this THIS THIS THIS THIS
 

Harris is a wild-card for me going forward. we've seen some flashes of talent, but he just hasn't had the playing time for a fair evaluation.

IF Harris blooms into a solid contributor, that honestly makes my outlook a little rosier for next year. It's just hard to extrapolate what his future contribution might be, without more data to base it on.

But, from that point of view, he could be one of the most important players on the team going forward. IF he can take a big step forward, he can add something this team really needs - a scorer and 3-point shooter.
 

bga1 said:
Yes but the 5 years of data would be a whole lot different without the injuries and the Lynch deal and none of that is within Pitino's control. I think it is close to 100% that we would be talking about 2 straight NCAA teams and looking forward to another next year- but for the misfortunes.
Click to expand...

This where myself and some others differ from you. You think the team if not for the misfortunes would virtual a lock for the a NCAA bid. Based on what we saw early in the season I think even without the suspension and injuries this team would be squarely on the bubble.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom