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KillmeNow said:
When you consider that Clem sold the future to get his 4th year success, and struggled for several years after that to build another roster that could get to the Sweet 16 or beyond, I'd say Pitino had THE BEST Year 4 of anyone, going as far back as Musselman.


Year 4s

Muss = 6 wins followed by 11 then got fired
Dutch = 6 wins followed by 10
Clem = 11 wins followed by 5
DanM = 8 wins followed by 3
Tubby = 6 wins followed by 6
Pitino = 11 wins.

And that 11 win team was supposed to be losing just 1 Sr and bringing in 2 frosh.


Anyone that denies that Pitino was trending UPWARDS, unlike everyone before him, is just either blind or they hate Pitino for some reason or maybe are just stupid?



Has this season pointed out some issues that maybe were not so easy to see last year? Sure. But I seriously can't wait to bring this season's discussions back up in year 10, and again in year 11. Why 11? That is the year Dutch departed, and the year Clem got to the Final 4.


Btw, technically Dutch finished his career UNDER .500 in conf play.

Tubby finished his career 16 games under .500

Clem finished his career 18 games under .500

Monson finished his career 34 games under .500?


Only the guy who got fired after 5 years, Musselman, got us over .500 in conf play.



This season may be like getting tripped in a race, Pitino's having to come from behind, but my money is on him to finish his career here as the winningest coach in Gopher cbb history, or at least modern day history.
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You could be right but that is not saying much. What will you say if after 10 years he is still rocking a mid 30% conference winning percentage, how would you look at him then. Fyi, i do not think that will happen. I think they can be 3rd or 4th next year and win a couple in the tourney. Projecting the all time win record just does not mean anything other than the fact we have a mediocre history.
 

builtbadgers said:
Few quality wins, lost to mid major in first round. Strength of wins was weak. I have no problem if someone describes it as a real good year. For me without a tourney win i would call it decent.
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A VERY good MSU team also lost to that same Mid-Major in the first round. And for pretty much the same reason, they shot the lights out from outside. I predicted here at GH that is what they would need to do to win, and I was right. Something they did not repeat in the 2nd round in either instance.

The 1989 team, lost to Drake and Ball St, one of those was a home game, too. They lost to an unranked Wisconsin team, got crushed by Michigan, they lost to an unranked NW team and an unranked MSU team, then lost at Assembly Hall, and THEN WENT ON A FOUR GAME LOSING STREAK before beating 3 unranked teams at home in a row to EEK back into NCAA tourney invite territory as an #11 seed where they beat the blue blood, big time bb program of Kansas St in the 1st round, and then got lucky to find Sienna waiting for them in the 2nd round, but then got crushed by Duke by 17 points in the Sweet 16.


Btw, that 4 game losing streak included a THIRTY-EIGHT POINT LOSS, followed by a 15 and a 13 point loss.

they went 1-8 on the road in conf play.


There biggest ooc opponent/win was possibly KANSAS STATE?


Yet because the record books show it was a Sweet 16 season, you probably what? Consider that a GREAT YEAR???
 

builtbadgers said:
You could be right but that is not saying much. What will you say if after 10 years he is still rocking a mid 30% conference winning percentage, how would you look at him then. Fyi, i do not think that will happen. I think they can be 3rd or 4th next year and win a couple in the tourney. Projecting the all time win record just does not mean anything other than the fact we have a mediocre history.
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Dude, I'm defending him because I think year 3 looked worse than it was, and that year 4 was a truer sign of what Pitino was turning this program into, and then this year just had everything go against it. If he's still hanging around a mid 30% conf winning percentage after his 10th year, I, ME, MYSELF, Killmenow, will be asking why he hasn't been fired yet!!! If I had to put a number on it, I'd say he almost needs to get to 50 conf wins before he gets past 75 losses, bringing his win percentage up just over .400, by the end of his 7th season and could do that by going 10-8 and 11-7 the next 2 seasons, OR, making 2 NCAA tourney's, or maybe just 1 as long as it's at least a Sweet 16 run.


I mean, I have standards, I do. I want to get to the point where I'm not comparing Pitino to our past coaches, but to guys at better programs with better resumes, but I just think, because of who we are, Scandal U, bb laughingstock U, frozen tundra U, fire too many coaches U, that we just need to be a little more patient than other programs might be. Making it as a coach in the B1G is not easy. BUT, if he does make it, then it will mean something, and he's young enough he might stick around and turn us into a cbb powerhouse. That is my dream, my hope.

Back in the 70s, the U led the nation in cbb attendance. At the end of the 20th Century, the U was a Top 10 producer of NBA talent. Clem had us on the rise!! We could have been what UConn became, but of course we all know that Clem screwed that AND US, up. But I'd like us to get back to what and where we were in the 70s, winning B1G titles, producing future NBA greats, with a little of what Clem brought us, minus the cheating of course, but the mojo to make occasional runs in the NCAA tourney, and hopefully our first NCAA Title someday, too.


I expect next season to be a 9-9 or better season, or it might be me arguing in here to fire him. An injury or 2 next year, as long as they don't play the same position, shouldn't be enough to stop them from being able to win at least 9 games as long as its not both Murphy & Coffey, same position and possibly our 2 best players come next year?
 

It is not personal by the way. Your fully entitled your opinion and i do not think my opinion carries some sort of authority even with more than half a century in the game. I just have not seen any evidence of him being a great coach and have been extremely frustrated by some of the poor characters he brought here.
 

lot of people seem to expect next year to be a big improvement. I'm not so sure.

Looking at the roster:
Losing Mason's scoring. who replaces the points and the 3-pt shooting?
Other seniors leaving - Gas & BK - don't need to repeat what others have said.
Lynch - was good while in the lineup. Not so good off the court.

Murphy back with no injury concerns. (knock on wood).
Curry coming off an ACL. you can hope he's back to what he was - didn't work out that way for Fitzgerald.
McBrayer - can he stay healthy? if he does, needs to fill bigger role and be more consistent scorer.
Coffey - also, can he stay healthy? Likewise, needs to be a more consistent scorer to make up for loss of Mason.
Washington coming off an up-and-down season. Needs to show more consistency.
Harris has spent much of the year in the doghouse. Hopefully he gets out of the doghouse, and can be a reliable 3-pt shooter. not a given.
Hurt - is he capable of showing more, giving more production? remains to be seen
Fitzgerald - does he come back? If he does, can he contribute more?
Stockman - mystery player. What is he capable of providing?

And then, the three incoming Freshmen. Are they ready for the physical nature of B1G play? how much can they contribute right off the bat?

Add it all up, and there are a LOT of questions. To be fair, if most of the questions are answered favorably, this could be a fun team to watch. But, there are no guarantees in sports. I could easily see some up-and-down play next year, especially in the non-conference games, as the Gophers work the injured players back into the rotation, and blend in the new players (FR and transfer).

In summation: next year is going to tell us a lot about Pitino as a coach. He might pass the test with flying colors. But, he might not. stay tuned.
 


Otis said:
Has he done as well coaching after losing a significant portion of his team as Jim Dutcher did after Madison trip birthed the Iron 5? Maybe, Dutcher was only able to get 2 more wins out of the Gophers after the team was gutted. John Shasky (played in NBA), Marc Wilson, Tim Hanson, Kelvin Smith and Ray Gaffney were all good B1G level players who luckily for Dutcher filled all five positions naturally. Although, the Iowa team they beat was pretty loaded with Armstrong, Marble, Sir Jamalot(Gerry Wright), andre Banks, etc...

If Pitino still had a center they would be better off, but you can't expect much considering the circumstances.
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Dutcher did not coach after Madison. He resigned in protest of the Northwestern forfeit. Jimmy Williams finished the season.

The Iron Five won the Big 10 under Bill Musselman after the Ohio State debacle.


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builtbadgers said:
It is not personal by the way. Your fully entitled your opinion and i do not think my opinion carries some sort of authority even with more than half a century in the game. I just have not seen any evidence of him being a great coach and have been extremely frustrated by some of the poor characters he brought here.
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Well, I think if you divide up his time here so far, in half, you can see 2 different things, the 1st half, in a sense the first 3 seasons, not counting the youngest recruits, making it 2.5 we'll say, shows a young guy with very little head coaching experience, and none at the major Conf level, scrambling to find players from basically anywhere, with some of them not turning out to be the greatest gets.

Then the 2nd half shows his youngest players showing promise in year 3. It is what made it tolerable for me to suffer through that season, was seeing the future out on the floor improving as the season went on, coming so close to winning on several occasions, and even winning that big game vs Maryland was it, at the very end of the season? And then in year 4 all of that young talent, none of whom are of the poor character types that you don't like, were now Juniors and Sophomores and coming into their own out on the court, the recruiting was improved to the point that the Frosh were ready to contribute as well and there were no more Bakarys or Gastons coming into the program, and the depth helped to the point that those 2 didn't hurt the team much. Now this year, the only problem guy left on the roster, got put straight 18 months ago and apparently has behaved since then, but the whole Metoo movement inspired 2 women to bring up stuff from that far back, but we do not yet know that any of that was even legit.

I'm not going to personally vouch for any of the guys on the team right now, and there are always guys that will surprise you, but for the most part it seems Pitino's gotten control of the situation now and has gotten to the point of being able to bring in only talented players with good characters, too.


As for coaching skills? He did lead that first team to an NIT Title, and he led last year's team to an 8 game win streak and an NCAA tourney invite and the team was ranked #15 in the country before Lynch and Coffey went out at the same time.

And the upward trend in recruiting is a skill that helps make a coach a good coach, as does player development, as does his general demeanor and his management skills.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
lot of people seem to expect next year to be a big improvement. I'm not so sure.

Looking at the roster:
Losing Mason's scoring. who replaces the points and the 3-pt shooting?
Other seniors leaving - Gas & BK - don't need to repeat what others have said.
Lynch - was good while in the lineup. Not so good off the court.

Murphy back with no injury concerns. (knock on wood).
Curry coming off an ACL. you can hope he's back to what he was - didn't work out that way for Fitzgerald.
McBrayer - can he stay healthy? if he does, needs to fill bigger role and be more consistent scorer.
Coffey - also, can he stay healthy? Likewise, needs to be a more consistent scorer to make up for loss of Mason.
Washington coming off an up-and-down season. Needs to show more consistency.
Harris has spent much of the year in the doghouse. Hopefully he gets out of the doghouse, and can be a reliable 3-pt shooter. not a given.
Hurt - is he capable of showing more, giving more production? remains to be seen
Fitzgerald - does he come back? If he does, can he contribute more?
Stockman - mystery player. What is he capable of providing?

And then, the three incoming Freshmen. Are they ready for the physical nature of B1G play? how much can they contribute right off the bat?

Add it all up, and there are a LOT of questions. To be fair, if most of the questions are answered favorably, this could be a fun team to watch. But, there are no guarantees in sports. I could easily see some up-and-down play next year, especially in the non-conference games, as the Gophers work the injured players back into the rotation, and blend in the new players (FR and transfer).

In summation: next year is going to tell us a lot about Pitino as a coach. He might pass the test with flying colors. But, he might not. stay tuned.
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That is a very fair assessment of the situation. Worst case scenario, if everyone is healthy, is that at least we'll have more depth. You only listed 12 players, so there will hopefully be a really good Grad transfer added to that roster as well, or maybe a JC player? I just pray its a guy who can play right away and not a transfer that has to sit out a year!!

And even if the probable starting 5, Murphy, Curry, McBrayer, Coffey & Washington all play like they were playing this year when they were healthy, that will be a pretty decent starting 5. Stockman doesn't have to be all that good to be an improvement on BK or GD. Hurt, Harris & Fitz simply going back to being back ups will help more than anything. And I haven't even mentioned the 3 frosh or the final piece yet to be named. All I can say is WOW, a full bench, it will be so nice, that alone.

But you are right, lots of questions, about the players, their health and talent level, and the coach, too. Can he get their defensive stats back to near what they were last year? Can he keep the team inspired to stay out of trouble?

But the potential is definitely there. And if Hurt and Harris can improve, imagine, we still have 2-3 more years of Curry-Coffey-Hurt-Harris-Washington. That could end up being as good of a Starting 5 as last year's and this year's were. And hopefully the new recruits make it so we don't NEED Hurt and/or Harris to become great.

And that is one of the main reasons why I defend Pitino, the potential and hope he brings to the program.
 

GopherHoopsFan said:
Obviously it doesn't, but thanks for pointing it out. However, considering that the B1G is incredibly weak after MSU, Purdue, and OSU (and isn't even that strong at the top) I can "guarantee" that the Gophers would have finished 4th or better. And if they hadn't, at that point in time I would have lost some faith in Pitino. But, since we'll never get the chance to know for sure we should just fire him. Yeah, let's fire him!
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The only way this "guarantee" is useful is if I print it out and use it as TP.

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Ewert86PC said:
The only way this "guarantee" is useful is if I print it out and use it as TP.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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It's his OPINION arsehole, and its worth as much as your arsehole opinion's are. More in my opinion, but of course I'm biased, I just don't like you.
 

KillmeNow said:
It's his OPINION arsehole, and its worth as much as your arsehole opinion's are. More in my opinion, but of course I'm biased, I just don't like you.
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CTL+P

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Ewert86PC said:
The only way this "guarantee" is useful is if I print it out and use it as TP.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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Congratulations, you just discovered what every single post on GH is worth!!! You just won a million dollars!!! Now you can go and wipe your arse with it.
 

KillmeNow said:
I wouldn't apologize to those people GopherHoopsFan. I mean, you are nice guy, so. But honestly, they are idiots who don't even know the real name of the "messiah" they supposedly follow, so why would their bs opinion matter? How have you honestly offended them? They offend their own God and then dare to scold you???
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Yahoo!
 



KillmeNow said:
I wouldn't apologize to those people GopherHoopsFan. I mean, you are nice guy, so. But honestly, they are idiots who don't even know the real name of the "messiah" they supposedly follow, so why would their bs opinion matter? How have you honestly offended them? They offend their own God and then dare to scold you???
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Thanks for the good intentions, but I don't need to be told when and when not to apologize, nor does anybody else. If someone asks you to stop something because they're offended, you should listen to them and stop. Reggie Lynch could have learned a thing or two from this lesson.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Yahoo!
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dpodoll68, you just epitomized the word "offensive", completely ignorantly I am 99% sure, You had no clue what you were doing or posting. But "Yahoo" is one of the oldest Anti-Semitic terms in history. I doubt you or anyone else cares, but whatever. I obviously do not post things here as a way of seeking out friends. Truth is all that matters to me.
 

GopherHoopsFan said:
Thanks for the good intentions, but I don't need to be told when and when not to apologize, nor does anybody else. If someone asks you to stop something because they're offended, you should listen to them and stop. Reggie Lynch could have learned a thing or two from this lesson.
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Dude, don't bow to the PC overlords that want to take over this country, people who couldn't care less about the truth, only things that help them manipulate the populace and maintain control. Don't let the PC crowd try to manipulate you. You obviously love Gopher hoops, and are willing to defend Pitino against hordes of Pitino haters, but don't give in to the PC bs. Sure, Reggie MIGHT have avoided some of his troubles, had he been more PC, but from his claims of innocence, it seems to me his only crime MIGHT be that he was black and/or a good bb player, or possibly not a smooth operator??? Women get taken in by smooth talkers so many times, nice guys KNOW what I am talking about, is it possible Reggie simply wasn't a smooth operator and is being punished for it? Or maybe he IS a smooth operator and is being punished for it? Sexual politics, to be honest, women have 99% of the power right now in that regard. Tell me I am wrong. OMG. don't even go there. The world is F'd up. Men have abused women SO much in the past, as a whole, now men are being made to suffer for all of our predecessors faults and sins, whether we individually deserve punishment or not. It's not justice or fairness, it's revenge, and it's gotten out of control. Women claim to be better than men, but they continually, when given the chance, prove that they are just as sinful as men have ever been. There is not stronger sex when it comes to being righteous or sinful, both produce both. This theory that if women ran the world it would be a better place is BULLSH1T, complete and total bs, they are as evil as men have ever been. They simply may disguise their evil better is all.
 

KillmeNow said:
dpodoll68, you just epitomized the word "offensive", completely ignorantly I am 99% sure, You had no clue what you were doing or posting. But "Yahoo" is one of the oldest Anti-Semitic terms in history. I doubt you or anyone else cares, but whatever. I obviously do not post things here as a way of seeking out friends. Truth is all that matters to me.
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Haha...you are too easy. I'm so "ignorant" that you took the bait hook, line, and sinker.

We went around and around on this before, you tool. Yup, the word yahoo is so offensive that a giant corporation has it as its name. Yes, oh so very offensive. I love how you follow up this post with a classic diatribe about "PC culture" when you've invented offense in your own head to a completely innocuous everyday word.

I await your 9,000-word treatise in response. What is actually offensive is that you haven't been banned yet.
 

Kill, do you think everyone that brings up the won-loss record, the bad defense, the character issues are all Pitino haters ? You think i want him to fail. I just want to stop comparing him to other mediocre coaches that had their turn here. That lowers expectations and i have never been about that. Other meaningless programs got turnarounds , winning huge, sustaining it. It makes no one a fool to want to win and to do it with class. That is what we should expect. Not 30-56 or whatever with problems of multiple players.
 

By the way a 5 year won loss record is the truth. Everything is opinion but that won loss record is fact.
 


ltf said:
Injuries aren't opinions.
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Everyone has them over a 5 year period. I have no problem with this year and losing games under these circumstances but how we play is a huge problem. Only programs that build with defense rise from mediocre to sustainable success. Even a layman observer can see bad defense for 4 out of 5 years.
 

builtbadgers said:
Everyone has them over a 5 year period. I have no problem with this year and losing games under these circumstances but how we play is a huge problem. Only programs that build with defense rise from mediocre to sustainable success. Even a layman observer can see bad defense for 4 out of 5 years.
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You may be correct. However, a couple weeks ago Indiana out offensive rebounded MIchigan State 25-3, Coach K more than one season has denied his team Duke gear due to lack of effort, Kerr has gotten so frustrated with the Warriors effort that he had them coach themselves. Defense and effort should be a constant but that's usually not reality. I don't read other team's message boards much but would bet that every team has games where defense/effort is lacking. As well, I know that talented teams I've coached have tended to look better than less talented ones. Anyway, time will tell. If i'm wrong won't be the first time.
 

ltf said:
You may be correct. However, a couple weeks ago Indiana out offensive rebounded MIchigan State 25-3, Coach K more than one season has denied his team Duke gear due to lack of effort, Kerr has gotten so frustrated with the Warriors effort that he had them coach themselves. Defense and effort should be a constant but that's usually not reality. I don't read other team's message boards much but would bet that every team has games where defense/effort is lacking. As well, I know that talented teams I've coached have tended to look better than less talented ones. Anyway, time will tell. If i'm wrong won't be the first time.
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Defensive effort lacking in games is one thing. This is horrible defense 4 out of 5 seasons which is something quite different.


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builtbadgers said:
Kill, do you think everyone that brings up the won-loss record, the bad defense, the character issues are all Pitino haters ? You think i want him to fail. I just want to stop comparing him to other mediocre coaches that had their turn here. That lowers expectations and i have never been about that. Other meaningless programs got turnarounds , winning huge, sustaining it. It makes no one a fool to want to win and to do it with class. That is what we should expect. Not 30-56 or whatever with problems of multiple players.
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+1. I don't want Pitino to fail. But he is failing. And I'm not optimistic that he can turn the ship around nearly enough next season. I'd simply rather not kick the can if the end is inevitable. If he fails to make the NCAAs next year or has even one off-court incident, he's cooked. That's a tough needle to thread. Meanwhile we will likely miss our shot at someone who would be a great fit.
 

scools12 said:
Defensive effort lacking in games is one thing. This is horrible defense 4 out of 5 seasons which is something quite different.


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4 out of 5 horrible defense? I looked back at a 4/9/14 thread that graded Pitino's first year and GH'rs graded him A 55% and B 43%. There were 5 pages of posts and not one post mentioned poor defense of any kind. GH'rs would disagree with you that this team played horrible defense.

I looked at a 3/7/15 thtead evaluating Pitino's second year. Couldnt find a thread that actually graded him. There were 3 pages of posts and 4 posts mentioned poor defense. Bigger issues seemed to be lack of an alpha dog to take shots at end of games, losing McNeil, Mathieu's regression, lack of grit. I guess one could surmise that this team was horrible defensively, but that posters were more concerned with other issues, not sure.

Where we are going to part ways is that I am not going to judge defensive performance based upon injuries/suspensions - don't think it's fair. Therefore will say gophs had good defensive team 2 out of 3 seasons, at worst

.
 

ltf said:
4 out of 5 horrible defense? I looked back at a 4/9/14 thread that graded Pitino's first year and GH'rs graded him A 55% and B 43%. There were 5 pages of posts and not one post mentioned poor defense of any kind. GH'rs would disagree with you that this team played horrible defense.

I looked at a 3/7/15 thtead evaluating Pitino's second year. Couldnt find a thread that actually graded him. There were 3 pages of posts and 4 posts mentioned poor defense. Bigger issues seemed to be lack of an alpha dog to take shots at end of games, losing McNeil, Mathieu's regression, lack of grit. I guess one could surmise that this team was horrible defensively, but that posters were more concerned with other issues, not sure.

Where we are going to part ways is that I am not going to judge defensive performance based upon injuries/suspensions - don't think it's fair. Therefore will say gophs had good defensive team 2 out of 3 seasons, at worst

.
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Look up Kenpom ratings of defense by points per possession. That is the only way to grade and by that it is 4 horrible tears and one very good year.
 

Numbers don’t lie here is where we have rated on defense.
130/100/231/21/192. Those are simply abysmal. 30-57 lines up pretty solid with those horrific defensive efforts. And not only do those numbers tell the story but the eye test as well. He has not shown an ability to coach defense.



ltf said:
4 out of 5 horrible defense? I looked back at a 4/9/14 thread that graded Pitino's first year and GH'rs graded him A 55% and B 43%. There were 5 pages of posts and not one post mentioned poor defense of any kind. GH'rs would disagree with you that this team played horrible defense.

I looked at a 3/7/15 thtead evaluating Pitino's second year. Couldnt find a thread that actually graded him. There were 3 pages of posts and 4 posts mentioned poor defense. Bigger issues seemed to be lack of an alpha dog to take shots at end of games, losing McNeil, Mathieu's regression, lack of grit. I guess one could surmise that this team was horrible defensively, but that posters were more concerned with other issues, not sure.

Where we are going to part ways is that I am not going to judge defensive performance based upon injuries/suspensions - don't think it's fair. Therefore will say gophs had good defensive team 2 out of 3 seasons, at worst

.
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rivergopher said:
Numbers don’t lie here is where we have rated on defense.
130/100/231/21/192. Those are simply abysmal. 30-57 lines up pretty solid with those horrific defensive efforts. And not only do those numbers tell the story but the eye test as well. He has not shown an ability to coach defense.
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Ok. Didn't realize our 2013 -14 kenpom was so low - interesting. Kenpom doesn't adjust for injuries, or am I incorrect on that as well?
 

It does not adjust for injuries, flu. broken heart, suspensions. It counts every possession of every game and we pulled every metric on how best to rise from mediocrity. Blue bloods are also good at it but they recruit better talent and thus points are easier to come by. If outscoring your opponent is the object then everyone knows that scoring is critical, we run those metrics as well. But if outscoring the other team is the goal then stopping them from scoring is equally imperative. It is easier to teach on some level but it is harder to sell. It must be a non negotiable in escaping being mediocre. Many programs have done it. Just look at Kenpom and the rankings reveal excellence . We went back pre Kenpom to build the model.
 


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