If you’re Coyle, why do u keep Pitino

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This team was on its way to disappointing when they had Lynch and Coffey, now it has turned into a collapse. Pitino shouldn't lost his job because we miss the tourney without Lynch and Coffey, but he might if this keeps snowballing.
 

KillmeNow said:
More talented? maybe. But that team had more depth and wasn't dealing with all kinds of random injuries and suspensions, etc.. That team had more continuity of the roster, etc..


Not even close to a fair comparison.


And its "this team even without Coffey..." It's this team without Curry, Lynch, Coffey AND Dupree not practicing and only playing sometimes, and when he is playing, its not at 100%
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So now you're arguing that comparing this team to the worst Gopher team in most of our lifetimes is unfair to the current team? Give me a break. If your bar for Pitino was any lower you'd have to bury it. This was a top 15 team. They still have two of the best players in the conference starting. That they're somehow worse than the 15-16 team is almost unfathomable, but it's true. That team rallied and played better down the stretch. I hope this one does too. But if we keep losing every game by double digits, moving on has to become an option.
 

Regarding the Big Ten record of Pitino... keep in mind in the last 35 years in seasons that count the Gophers have been over 500 in the Big Ten four times and Pitino's team tied for the best conference record at 11 and 7 just last year over those 35 years.
All expectations were we would improve upon that this year but our depth was thin when all hands were healthy. Curry got hurt before the season and we now had no depth. Lynch got suspended for a 2016 incident. Coffey got hurt. Mason got hurt and has played far below his best performances many games this season. McBrayer has been playing hurt all season and couldn't play in the summer and fall. Fitzgerald hadn't played for two years and couldn't practice until the season began. That's 5 of your top 6 players. Murphy has been awesome or we would be uncompetitive.
You can't beat Big Ten teams without your top guys available and playing well, no matter whatever legend you want to be coaching the team.
 

WoodburyTim said:
This team was on its way to disappointing when they had Lynch and Coffey, now it has turned into a collapse. Pitino shouldn't lost his job because we miss the tourney without Lynch and Coffey, but he might if this keeps snowballing.
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I disagree about the team being on the way to disappointing.

The loss to Miami, for one, Dupree was out for the whole game so for the first time IW was called on to shoulder most of DM's missing minutes and he probably wasn't ready for this.

The Nebraska game, for one it was a road game vs a team that only had 4 conf losses right now, 3 of which were road losses to the Top 3 teams in the conf. So in retrospect, this may have been one of the road games we shouldn't think we should have won. And these are not excuses, but Lynch's issues with fouls was improving at the end of last year and was continuing to improve this season, and maybe it was the quality of our opponent? Or maybe the refs had it in for us, because MASON, someone who rarely struggles with fouls, had FOUR for that game, and MURPHY, also a player that doesn't too often struggle with foul trouble, had FOUR that game, oh, and even Fitz had THREE fouls. And I don't think Dupree was back to 100% yet. Also, this could have been Murphy's worst game with Lynch and Coffey in the lineup, going only 10 & 10, just barely getting a double double that game. Not excuses, it wasn't our best game, but it also, now that we know how good Nebraska is, shouldn't be considered as much of a disappointing result as maybe it seemed at the time.


Now the Arkansas game, like Nebraska was a road game, and again Lynch and Murphy found themselves with 4 fouls at the end of the game.


Maybe this is a sign that the team would have had a disappointing season? I don't think so, because it was evident that Pitino was working with Lynch on this, and as for Murphy, well, he's our best player this year and so I wouldn't have been worried about it, especially if we wouldn't have lost both Lynch and Coffey along with Dupree being so hobbled as well.


I know all the talk about possibly making a run to the FF got people's expectations up there REALLY high, but we got a #5 seed last year after losing 5 in a row, so... And the 89 and 90 teams got to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 without cracking the Top 4 of the conference standings, so....
 

KillmeNow said:
OK, I'll be willing to give your whole take on this situation more thought and consideration if you will do me a favor. I want to know what your take on the 1987 & 1988 Gopher Men's Basketball seasons IS, or more preferably, WAS AT THE TIME??

And since one season seems to be counted as a fluke around here, SO, throw in the 1989 season as well.

Clem's first 3 seasons as a Gopher coach. What is your take, what WAS your take or your perspective regarding that team at that time, or up to that time. But just for Ghits and Siggles, lets NOT include the 1989 post season.

So just Clem's first 3 REGULAR seasons, meaning Clem's 15-39 conf record up to that time.


Yeah, 15-39.


What was the team's "identity" up to that point, not AFTER the NCAA Tourney, but going INTO it.

At 15-39 in conf.



I KNOW where I was. I was in Germany getting a hat maker to specially order a Gopher emblem because HE HAD NEVER EVER sold a Gopher hat before, much less had anyone ask for one. He was very surprised to know that they had a good team, or at least according to ME, the only Gopher fan he had ever met. I told him to watch them, to keep an eye out for them, and that they would surprise him.

I left Germany before the 1990 season, so I never saw that man again. But I like to think that he saw how the 89 and 90 teams did in the NCAA tourney and thought of me and that I told him it would happen.


So I know what my mindset about the team at that point was, at 15-39.


15-39.
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Went to 80 % of all Gopher games during that period. Clem inherited a situation miles worse than RP. It was so bad that he cheated and ignored the character piece. On the court his team established a tough and physical defense as their identity. So you want to compare him to a systemic cheater. To win what he did he cheated but from day one on the court was a bruising defense. I was cheated out of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Do you think this coach, the here and now has established a identity ? Do you consider him a top 40 coach ? Do you watch how other programs built their successes ? We obviously share our interest in this program but other programs that were hard as hell jobs had sustainable success after establishing a identity. Have you been inside other programs to see how it has been done ? There are different ways of winning but no one has done it in a power 5 conference without blood letting defense and discipline. I expect these jobs to have alot of losses during the build but in year 5 not 6-27 against ranked teams and very mediocre defense and a poor standard for characters. Those two things are inexcusable and a record that would be termination worthy at schools that expect excellence . I expect it here just like i did at UW, UVA, Butler, Xavier.
 


KillmeNow said:
I disagree about the team being on the way to disappointing.

The loss to Miami, for one, Dupree was out for the whole game so for the first time IW was called on to shoulder most of DM's missing minutes and he probably wasn't ready for this.

The Nebraska game, for one it was a road game vs a team that only had 4 conf losses right now, 3 of which were road losses to the Top 3 teams in the conf. So in retrospect, this may have been one of the road games we shouldn't think we should have won. And these are not excuses, but Lynch's issues with fouls was improving at the end of last year and was continuing to improve this season, and maybe it was the quality of our opponent? Or maybe the refs had it in for us, because MASON, someone who rarely struggles with fouls, had FOUR for that game, and MURPHY, also a player that doesn't too often struggle with foul trouble, had FOUR that game, oh, and even Fitz had THREE fouls. And I don't think Dupree was back to 100% yet. Also, this could have been Murphy's worst game with Lynch and Coffey in the lineup, going only 10 & 10, just barely getting a double double that game. Not excuses, it wasn't our best game, but it also, now that we know how good Nebraska is, shouldn't be considered as much of a disappointing result as maybe it seemed at the time.


Now the Arkansas game, like Nebraska was a road game, and again Lynch and Murphy found themselves with 4 fouls at the end of the game.


Maybe this is a sign that the team would have had a disappointing season? I don't think so, because it was evident that Pitino was working with Lynch on this, and as for Murphy, well, he's our best player this year and so I wouldn't have been worried about it, especially if we wouldn't have lost both Lynch and Coffey along with Dupree being so hobbled as well.


I know all the talk about possibly making a run to the FF got people's expectations up there REALLY high, but we got a #5 seed last year after losing 5 in a row, so... And the 89 and 90 teams got to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 without cracking the Top 4 of the conference standings, so....
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Not excuses ? Your talking about foul trouble. That foul trouble was a result of terrible defensive mechanics, not moving your feet and thus reaching and swatting. Everyone can remember countless times this has been a problem for Gopher players. Nebraska, look at some of their losses ! How many good wins does Nebraska have. Not winning when your less than your best is the trademark of teams that play defense and keep you in or win games when shots do not fall.
 

howeda7 said:
So now you're arguing that comparing this team to the worst Gopher team in most of our lifetimes is unfair to the current team? Give me a break. If your bar for Pitino was any lower you'd have to bury it. This was a top 15 team. They still have two of the best players in the conference starting. That they're somehow worse than the 15-16 team is almost unfathomable, but it's true. That team rallied and played better down the stretch. I hope this one does too. But if we keep losing every game by double digits, moving on has to become an option.
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It's unfair because this year's squad has been playing with only 3/4ths of its players for much of the season

Just 101 games played out of a possible 143 in conference play, and that INCLUDES the 6 games Gaston played in.

Konate not only has been depended on and played in all 11 conference games, he's STARTED SEVEN OF THEM!!!!!

Hurt, who some do not think very highly of, has STARTED FOUR!!!!!!!

Even Fitz has started a game.



We are depending on JUST NINE scholarship players in conference play. NINE. Not 10, 11 or 12, much less 13


NINE.

Oh, and one of those 9, doesn't even practice between games as he has to wear a walking boot.

Oh, and I'm INCLUDING Coffey among those 9, despite his only playing in 5 of those 11 games, and 2 of them he SHOULDN'T have been playing in.

Originally he was slated to return TODAY. Feb 2nd.

He came back at least 2 weeks early, NOT TO PRACTICE, only to play games, but it was too early, aggravated the injury and couldn't play in the Iowa game and now who knows how long before he comes back?


So you could argue that we are playing with JUST EIGHT GUYS!!!!!! One of which can't even practice.


And one of those 8 is also Konate!!!!!!!


So lets look at a list of our 7 healthy players


Konate,
Hurt,
Fitz,
Harris,
Washington,
Mason,
Murphy.


Wow, yeah, they should be winning ALOT more games.




And yeah, because of this lack of healthy players, I DO NOT think its fair to compare them to any team, much less the 15-16 team.
 

builtbadgers said:
Not excuses ? Your talking about foul trouble. That foul trouble was a result of terrible defensive mechanics, not moving your feet and thus reaching and swatting. Everyone can remember countless times this has been a problem for Gopher players. Nebraska, look at some of their losses ! How many good wins does Nebraska have. Not winning when your less than your best is the trademark of teams that play defense and keep you in or win games when shots do not fall.
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You are going to claim Minnesota is the only team that has players that get into foul trouble??? lol


When we were healthy, or a lot healthier, we seemed to ALWAYS have at least one, if not several of our opponents in foul trouble.


And yes, it was a problem for Lynch early last season, and he got better about that as the year went on, and oh, just so happens that our W/L percentage ALSO got better as the season went along, right?


There is a difference between an excuse and an explanation. Not saying the refs screwed us out of those games, just pointed out that the 2 games more than one guy struggled with foul trouble, were 2 of the 3 games we lost, the 3rd was when McBreyer was out the whole game.
 

Urbandale said:
I like Pitino a lot, so as with everybody my opinions are colored by that bias. That being said...

There has to be concern with his ability to evaluate talent, particularly big men.

1. Johnathan Nwankwo appears to have been a bust.
2. Josh Martin appears to have been a bust.
3. Bakary Konate appears better suited to have played at a lower level.
4. Gaston Diedhiou appears better suited to have played at a much lower level.
5. Nobody in Louisville was wringing tears from handkerchiefs when Matz Stockman departed (soaking up two years of Minnesota scholarship for one year of yet-to-be-determined play).

Now, clearly Murphy has been a success. And Curry seemed to be headed in that direction last year. And Pitino did bring Reggie Lynch in for one year of DPOY action, despite how it turned out off the court.

But that's a disturbing number of not-even-close whiffs in evaluating big man talent. Hopefully that will change.
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However, many of those recruits were taken in the first couple years of Pitino being here, when we just needed bodies and were missing out on priority recruits. This was before he had recruiting pipelines established and was unproven as a coach and program.

Every year, the recruiting class has been better than the last. So at this point, I don't necessarily think recruiting is the problem. In my opinion, this year is a result of everything bad that could go wrong, is going wrong. The bench was short as is. Lynch suspended, Curry done before the season started. Mason, McBrayer, Washington, Coffey all missing games with injury/illness. Saw a tweet that McBrayer, Coffey, and Diedhou are all day-to-day going into tomorrow's game. Even Murphy rolled an ankle in a game and had to miss the majority of it. Of the players available, we basically haven't seen a game all season with all players able to play at 100%.
 



And i pointed out how poor the technique is. I claim that teams that do not become razor sharp on defense become very susceptible to foul trouble. You still have not addressed not establishing a identity that becomes what a good program hangs their hat on everyday. Every single basketball person i take to games or watch with has noted this. It is largely a collection of former successful coaches, scouts and players. Are you not concerned with the lack of a identity 5 years in. This will get harder as Ohio State and INDIANA are going to win huge. This has been when it has been a soft conference. Two hall of fame coaches in Ryan and Izzo. So one for 3 years. At least 6 terrible programs most of the time and only three top shelf winners for the last several years.
 

builtbadgers said:
Went to 80 % of all Gopher games during that period. Clem inherited a situation miles worse than RP. It was so bad that he cheated and ignored the character piece. On the court his team established a tough and physical defense as their identity. So you want to compare him to a systemic cheater. To win what he did he cheated but from day one on the court was a bruising defense. I was cheated out of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Do you think this coach, the here and now has established a identity ? Do you consider him a top 40 coach ? Do you watch how other programs built their successes ? We obviously share our interest in this program but other programs that were hard as hell jobs had sustainable success after establishing a identity. Have you been inside other programs to see how it has been done ? There are different ways of winning but no one has done it in a power 5 conference without blood letting defense and discipline. I expect these jobs to have alot of losses during the build but in year 5 not 6-27 against ranked teams and very mediocre defense and a poor standard for characters. Those two things are inexcusable and a record that would be termination worthy at schools that expect excellence . I expect it here just like i did at UW, UVA, Butler, Xavier.
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The NCAA found that Clem didn't start cheating until what? 94?


So you don't like the VALID point I'm making about Clem's Conf record being so horrendous, so you just say, "he cheated" so you don't have to respond???


And you "claim" that his teams played such good defense? Do you have stats to show that the Gopher's defense was highly rated during Clem's first 3 seasons??? Because his horrendous conference record wouldn't exactly be a big selling point for your whole great defense brings wins theory.



And you keep bringing up this very poor characters sh1t???


Like Konate and Gaston?

Like Coffey and McBreyer, both pushing to play when not even allowed to practice?

Like Murphy and Mason?

Like IW and Harris?

Like Fitz, missed 2 seasons because of injuries, yet didn't give up.

Or is it Hurt that is the bad guy?


Are these the guys you are dissing as being of bad character???



Oh, the guy who HAS NOT YET BEEN FOUND GUILTY OF ANYTHING by even the U, much less any law enforcement agency.


And even if he is, what was Pitino supposed to do, kick him off solely because someone accused him of something???

He WAS suspended, investigated, and found NOT GUILTY by even the U, and was then allowed to play. And other than some obvious drinking and drunken behavior 18 months ago, which it appears Pitino has talked to him about and got him to straighten up, what has there been since???


And I'm not prepared to label his behavior from 18 months ago as anymore than careless and reckless drunkenness, UNTIL he's found guilty of having done more than that.

He's denied doing anything to the women in the last 2 complaints. Innocent until proven guilty right?


So what? Are you feeling the need to bring up stuff from the 15-16 season or before?


And if you are wanting to bring up all of that old sh1t. Tell me, were there obvious signs or evidence of those players being high risk or having histories of bad characters? Or did they get to college, like so many young people do, finally free from parental control, and do things that far too many young adults get away with, behavior seemingly glamorized by Hollywood for decades???
 

builtbadgers said:
And i pointed out how poor the technique is. I claim that teams that do not become razor sharp on defense become very susceptible to foul trouble. You still have not addressed not establishing a identity that becomes what a good program hangs their hat on everyday. Every single basketball person i take to games or watch with has noted this. It is largely a collection of former successful coaches, scouts and players. Are you not concerned with the lack of a identity 5 years in. This will get harder as Ohio State and INDIANA are going to win huge. This has been when it has been a soft conference. Two hall of fame coaches in Ryan and Izzo. So one for 3 years. At least 6 terrible programs most of the time and only three top shelf winners for the last several years.
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But we are not overly susceptible to foul trouble. I mentioned 2 games, and you make that out to mean the team is susceptible to foul trouble??? lol


Please tell me that you understand that Refs are not even close to perfect and often times they call one game one way and another game differently, heck, they even change how they call games DURING games. One half they call everything, then stop calling anything, or vice versa.

So that often plays a larger role in whether a certain player or several players get called for fouls in games, than lack of defense.


And I've said also, that far more often than not our opposition had MORE FOULS than us.
 

I said he inherited a job one hell of a lot tougher than the one Pitino got so a 2-16 start was much to do with what he was left. I have the stats and those that go to the games could easily see the way Clem had his kids play defense and what we have seen from year one of this regime minus last year. I have never mentioned those players by name that have not been in trouble so do not lie and associate a list of players i am not naming. Are you denying the trouble some kids had before they ever got here and are now gone ? What about the unsavory behavior by some still here. You still have not addressed the no identity issue and at best you will dismiss the losing, the lack of big wins by comparing him to Clem ! Clem got to the sweet 16, pre cheating in year 3 and that was after taking a program that left him nothing. You clearly have low standards and obviously have never been part of how a program gets built. Your really not going to talk about the zero identity are you ?
 




KillmeNow said:
I disagree about the team being on the way to disappointing.

The loss to Miami, for one, Dupree was out for the whole game so for the first time IW was called on to shoulder most of DM's missing minutes and he probably wasn't ready for this.

The Nebraska game, for one it was a road game vs a team that only had 4 conf losses right now, 3 of which were road losses to the Top 3 teams in the conf. So in retrospect, this may have been one of the road games we shouldn't think we should have won. And these are not excuses, but Lynch's issues with fouls was improving at the end of last year and was continuing to improve this season, and maybe it was the quality of our opponent? Or maybe the refs had it in for us, because MASON, someone who rarely struggles with fouls, had FOUR for that game, and MURPHY, also a player that doesn't too often struggle with foul trouble, had FOUR that game, oh, and even Fitz had THREE fouls. And I don't think Dupree was back to 100% yet. Also, this could have been Murphy's worst game with Lynch and Coffey in the lineup, going only 10 & 10, just barely getting a double double that game. Not excuses, it wasn't our best game, but it also, now that we know how good Nebraska is, shouldn't be considered as much of a disappointing result as maybe it seemed at the time.


Now the Arkansas game, like Nebraska was a road game, and again Lynch and Murphy found themselves with 4 fouls at the end of the game.


Maybe this is a sign that the team would have had a disappointing season? I don't think so, because it was evident that Pitino was working with Lynch on this, and as for Murphy, well, he's our best player this year and so I wouldn't have been worried about it, especially if we wouldn't have lost both Lynch and Coffey along with Dupree being so hobbled as well.


I know all the talk about possibly making a run to the FF got people's expectations up there REALLY high, but we got a #5 seed last year after losing 5 in a row, so... And the 89 and 90 teams got to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 without cracking the Top 4 of the conference standings, so....
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I cannot fathom any scenario in a game where you would not have an excuse that explains it. Of course all the things you put out there are not unique to Minnesota. Other teams have guys get hurt, suspended, foul trouble, bad weather, head colds, bad planetary alignment, road games, girlfriend breakups, new girlfriends...........
 

i would laugh at our program but it is a situation that calls for compassion.
 

WoodburyTim said:
I cannot fathom any scenario in a game where you would not have an excuse that explains it. Of course all the things you put out there are not unique to Minnesota. Other teams have guys get hurt, suspended, foul trouble, bad weather, head colds, bad planetary alignment, road games, girlfriend breakups, new girlfriends...........
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Like I said, those were not excuses, merely explanations.

Struggling with foul trouble is something Pitino was working on, as we saw with the progress Lynch made in that regard in the 2nd half of the season last year and even in most of the games this year.

And the two games we lost, ON THE ROAD, both were vs possible tourney bound teams, where MURPHY even got into foul trouble, and he's not a guy who usually does. So the fact that Lynch also got into foul trouble during those 2 ROAD games could show, what most of us all know and acknowledge, that one of the reasons home teams have an advantage, is that more often than not, they get more calls going their way than not, when playing at home. And vs Nebraska, MASON got 4 fouls as well, and the only stat in Fitz's stat line, meaning 0 pts-0 rebounds-0 assists, was -THREE PFs!!!

So not sure if there was some home cooking going on in that Nebraska game or not. Might be why their 4 conf losses are their only losses?? Everyone says that Nebraska is not that good, but they are undefeated at home in conf play???

Not sure where the game was vs Kansas, but that was only a 1 pt win for KU vs Nebraska.


So again, mentioning a couple players struggled with foul trouble in TWO games, does not mean the team as a whole struggles every game with foul trouble, and neither is it making an excuse, but simply an explanation. The foul trouble could have been because of the quality of the competition or because of the home cooked refereeing or OUR players simply have bad games???


In contrast to those 2 games, only IW had more than 3 fouls in the Miami game, and only he and Mason had more then 2. But McBreyer was not in that game. That was the beginning of the rash of injuries that has plagued this team since then.
 

builtbadgers said:
I said he inherited a job one hell of a lot tougher than the one Pitino got so a 2-16 start was much to do with what he was left. I have the stats and those that go to the games could easily see the way Clem had his kids play defense and what we have seen from year one of this regime minus last year. I have never mentioned those players by name that have not been in trouble so do not lie and associate a list of players i am not naming. Are you denying the trouble some kids had before they ever got here and are now gone ? What about the unsavory behavior by some still here. You still have not addressed the no identity issue and at best you will dismiss the losing, the lack of big wins by comparing him to Clem ! Clem got to the sweet 16, pre cheating in year 3 and that was after taking a program that left him nothing. You clearly have low standards and obviously have never been part of how a program gets built. Your really not going to talk about the zero identity are you ?
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SO... you never mentioned any of the players I listed? So you ARE ragging on mistakes from several years ago???


Why can't you acknowledge that those were early mistakes he made, and just like the recruiting quality has been trending UPWARDS, the # of risky recruits/transfers he's bringing in is trending DOWNWARDS.

Both good things.


AND... if you would STOP excluding last year like it didn't count, the defensive play of his teams was ALSO trending UPWARDS, ie getting better.

This year may have been a little setback losing Springs, but my guess is that Pitino either already has players coming in that will help in this regard, or he will bring them in, while also working on the current players, helping them develop their games, like there is plenty of evidence of him doing with the current players on the roster.
 

You want an identity?


Year 1 - NEVER GAVE UP, despite missing out on the NCAA's, PITINO got this team to the NIT title game and won it

Year 3 - Despite only winning 1 game in conf play deep into conference play, they NEVER GAVE UP and pulled off a big win vs a highly ranked Maryland team

Year 4 - Despite losing 5 games in a row in conf, the team NEVER GAVE UP and won 8 in a row, saving the season

Year 5 - Despite the season looking lost, SEVERAL players are playing hurt and/or in pain. they just NEVER GIVE UP!!!!


And the roster in Year 1 is completely gone, aren't they? The year 3 roster looked a lot different than this years as well.

So what is the unifier? What connects all 3 of those teams? PITINO!!!


Our coach, somehow inspires a NEVER GIVE UP attitude in his players that makes me proud of this team!!!


Combine that with all the evidence showing he makes his players better during individual seasons and from one year to the next, and the recruiting continually trending UPWARDS and the risky players coming into the program trending downward to almost down to NONE



AND




GIVE THIS GUY A RAISE!!!!!!!



:)
 

KillmeNow said:
You want an identity?


Year 1 - NEVER GAVE UP, despite missing out on the NCAA's, PITINO got this team to the NIT title game and won it

Year 3 - Despite only winning 1 game in conf play deep into conference play, they NEVER GAVE UP and pulled off a big win vs a highly ranked Maryland team

Year 4 - Despite losing 5 games in a row in conf, the team NEVER GAVE UP and won 8 in a row, saving the season

Year 5 - Despite the season looking lost, SEVERAL players are playing hurt and/or in pain. they just NEVER GIVE UP!!!!


And the roster in Year 1 is completely gone, aren't they? The year 3 roster looked a lot different than this years as well.

So what is the unifier? What connects all 3 of those teams? PITINO!!!


Our coach, somehow inspires a NEVER GIVE UP attitude in his players that makes me proud of this team!!!


Combine that with all the evidence showing he makes his players better during individual seasons and from one year to the next, and the recruiting continually trending UPWARDS and the risky players coming into the program trending downward to almost down to NONE



AND




GIVE THIS GUY A RAISE!!!!!!!



:)
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Sorry, K. For a team that NEVER GIVES UP, their key guys look pretty disinterested, not team focused and tired at this point.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

KillmeNow said:
It's just a reality that some coaches are or would be or are expected to be home runs hires, immediate impact hires. Examples would be Tubby Smith at Mn bb, Herb Brooks at SCSU, Lou Holtz at Mn fb, Allister at Mn Softball, the Gophers VB coach, and those are just examples from Gopher sports, or of a Gopher elsewhere. Most of those home run hires panned out or had at least a short term immediate impact while they were here/there. SCSU even renamed their Arena after Brooks, despite his being there just one year. Holtz's impact was less noticeable because he took several of the players that would have otherwise kept playing for Minnesota with him to Notre Dame, with some of those actually being part of why ND went on to win the Natl Title.


Edit - I forgot to include the 2nd part. Other coaches ARE NOT home run hires, and their expectations are lower, and its hoped that given time and patience, they can build something and become successful. Jerry Kill was one of these hires, like Mason before him, he was known to turn programs around and until he left, he had our fb program on a steady upward trajectory, and I think we were more patient with him than for instance, Michigan was with Harbaugh, he was a home run hire and much more was expected of him and despite much greater success than we've had at Minnesota, there is talk of firing him, we'd pee our pants to have what Michigan has had under Harbaugh. J Robinson was possibly one of those hires, he didn't immediately turn the Minnesota Wrestling program around, it took him close to a decade to turn them into perennial contenders. If as many people cared about wrestling back in the early 90s like they care about cbb, Robinson may have been fired the year they got to #1 in the rankings and ended up finishing like #12 or something in the NCAAs? He suffered some serious bad luck as well as 2 of his best wrestlers got injured between the end of the season and the start of the NCAA tourney. But maybe because it was just wrestling? But he was shown patience and that patience paid off. I don't think hiring Brad Frost was a home run hire, at least it didn't look like it at the time of the hire, turns out it was, he was the frog that turned into the Prince maybe? Or maybe ANYONE could coach those gals to titles??? I don't think so. I don't think Mason was a home run hire, although some may have hoped he'd turn out to be, but he was known for turning dumpster fires into competitive programs and that is what he did, but he reached his ceiling and plateaued. A guy outside of Minnesota that I can think of is Gary Pinkel at Missouri, he was given lots of time and patience to build that program up and until all the trouble they had with racism that one season, they were on a steady upward progression. Had it taken that long for Saban to turn Bama into a decent team, he would have gotten fired in 1/5th the time it took for Pinkel to get let go.

And we all know our drunken letch of an AD couldn't find a home run hire, or didn't want the one he could have gotten in Flip, so he went with one whose success, if he had it, he could take tons of credit for.


So we all knew he wasn't a home run hire, from the start. Not sure why this is not understood and acknowledged???

Home run hires have and ALWAYS WILL HAVE, higher expectations of them, at least in their first 2-3 seasons.



Tubby Smith, in comparison to the very FAIR high expectations of his impact here, was basically a bust. Did he put together a good team or two in his time here? Sure, I sure in the frigging heck hope so??? And maybe he also suffered some bad luck, too, that may have lessened the end results that particular season. Sure. But it ended up being pretty apparent that he was let go from UK for good reason.

I've mentioned here before, as have others, that his recruiting was trending downward, and THAT was why he was rightfully let go. And that is definitely true, he was basically putting less and less energy and time into recruiting out of state players. He was basically mailing it in.

But, the more I think about it, that was NOT the only issue I had with Tubby. Some of his coaching decisions were unbelievably BAFFLING. Wasn't it Tubby that would do some sort of hockey line change kind of thing? Taking out whole lineups at the same time or close to it, and it always seemed that he did this when we had momentum and far more often than not, it seemed to allow the other team to stop our momentum and to build their own and to make comebacks. And maybe he felt that once he put the lineup/starters back into the game, they could stop the other teams comeback, and that may have happened a few times, as I guess it should, but I know that I am not the only person who noticed it, because it was other fans complaining about it that helped me to recognize it and to watch for it in future games.

So for his being a supposed future Hall of Famer and his having led a team to a Natl Championship and having led several different teams to the NCAA tourney, and maybe even deep into the tourney, he just DID NOT DELIVER on the promise, the potential, the hope, that most of us seemed to have or see in him when he first got hired.

And the year he had all that bad luck??? I remember him being, for the most part, forgiven for that, and not blamed for the team's BARELY getting into the tourney that year, needing to make a run to the Conf Tourney Title game just to get an #11 seed in the tourney. Were their exceptions to that? Sure, there were Tubby haters who ragged on him and blamed him for the bad luck, just like Pitino haters blame him for this year's bad luck or at least his not being able to overcome it. Yet we still have the B1G tourney to redeem this season, so you never know? But Tubby gets credit for taking that team to the NCAA tourney, despite their BARELY getting in and then not coming close to winning their 1st round game.

And yes, at the time I wanted to believe our win over UCLA was a great win and something to be proud of, and maybe their missing JUST ONE PLAYER shouldn't detract from our beating them, but at the same time there are plenty of Gopher fans that feel our missing JUST ONE PLAYER was why we lost to Michigan and then MTSU last year. So is it fair or right or intelligent to point to our missing player when we lose and then not allow our opposition to do the same???

Is it significant that our ONLY WIN in NCAA tournament play since 1990, came while the other team was down a player???


If I was NOT a Gopher fan, I'd be all over that, and would in fact make a point of pointing that out.

UMn is one of the worst ranked cbb programs in modern college basketball history, and they'd be MUCH WORSE if not for Clem's first crew.

What was Clem's 4 year B1G conf record???

What was Clem's first 3 year conf record??? OMG, that would almost make Pitino's look incredibly good!!!!!


Yet what did those TWO HORRIBLE teams, the 1987 and 1988 teams have, other than possibly the worst 2 year conf record in ALL OF UMN BB HISTORY??????????????



HOPE.


Hope for a much brighter future. And 1989 and 1990 delivered exactly that.


Oh, and it wasn't incredibly amazing conf win/loss records in 89 and 90 that made those years special.

And I point that out because of how OBSESSED some of you seem to be with this whole 5 year conf record BS.



Monson never made me feel true hope like I felt Clem gave us.

Tubby, only made me feel that kind of hope for a year or two, then he felt like just a slight improvement over Monson.

Pitino, in year 3, made me feel like I was experiencing what I had in 1988 again. Young team struggling, mightily, but showing signs of a promising future.

Pitino in year 4, made me feel like I was experiencing what I had in 1989 again. Had Springs not gone down, I could have easily seen them making the Sweet 16.

Pitino in year 5, BEFORE the Curry injury, I felt we were going to have a year similar to 1990, except playing in a weaker B1G than the 1990 version, I thought we'd finish Top 3 in Conf for sure, unlike the 1990 team that finished in 5th I believe? Or was that the 89 team?


But then the ceiling started collapsing in on this year's squad and well, I just don't see how that can be blamed on Pitino directly. Maybe in some degree indirectly, seeing as he did bring in Gaston and Bakary and under the circumstances some of his moves didn't work out too well, but its not as if coaches should know that 3 and a half players are not going to be available to them each year. Who does that? Who passes on bringing in a transfer that has to sit a year assuming 3 and a half players are going to become unavailable to play??? Why aren't all of you geniuses who think its so easy to predict such things out there in the world making big money coaching college basketball???

lol

Maybe because you are not actually cbb coaching geniuses, but in reality are just a bunch of armchair QBs who think WAY TOO highly of their own opinions?
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Tubby Smith was not "let go" by Kentucky. He resigned and took the Minnesota job.
 

KillmeNow said:
SO... you never mentioned any of the players I listed? So you ARE ragging on mistakes from several years ago???


Why can't you acknowledge that those were early mistakes he made, and just like the recruiting quality has been trending UPWARDS, the # of risky recruits/transfers he's bringing in is trending DOWNWARDS.

Both good things.


AND... if you would STOP excluding last year like it didn't count, the defensive play of his teams was ALSO trending UPWARDS, ie getting better.

This year may have been a little setback losing Springs, but my guess is that Pitino either already has players coming in that will help in this regard, or he will bring them in, while also working on the current players, helping them develop their games, like there is plenty of evidence of him doing with the current players on the roster.
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here are the defensive rankings for ALL of the 5 years. FOLLOW CLOSELY IF POSSIBLE
year one-78
year 2-90
year 3-163
year 4-22
year 5-129

learn how to read a trend line . That is not trending better. Look how poorly that compares just to decent teams in the power 5 conferences. Worse is how awful the offense is to go with it.
 

howeda7 said:
We can't afford to do that. Waiting and making your hire after all of the other schools have already made theirs is how you get Tim Brewster.
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I said I would wait until after next season to make a decision.
 

Get this team to give 6 more efforts like they did today and this argument goes away.
 


builtbadgers said:
here are the defensive rankings for ALL of the 5 years. FOLLOW CLOSELY IF POSSIBLE
year one-78
year 2-90
year 3-163
year 4-22
year 5-129

learn how to read a trend line . That is not trending better. Look how poorly that compares just to decent teams in the power 5 conferences. Worse is how awful the offense is to go with it.
Click to expand...

What did the trend line look like last year...when Pitino was BT coach of the year?
 

bga1 said:
What did the trend line look like last year...when Pitino was BT coach of the year?
Click to expand...

This has been bad defensive team under Pitino. Last year was an anomaly based on Lynch’s ability to cover up continuous defensive lapses.

Unless Pitino finds another rim protector the numbers indicate this will continue to a poor defensive team under his watch.
 

jamiche said:
Sorry, K. For a team that NEVER GIVES UP, their key guys look pretty disinterested, not team focused and tired at this point.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Tired? You think??? Are you frigging serious?


Wow, some of you arseholes are so frigging clueless.


NO Cashman

NO Curry

No Coffey

No Lynch

BARELY any McBreyer

Even Gaston's missed more than a handful of games


5 games in 11 days, FOUR of them road games, right out of the gate almost, after Lynch and Coffey went out.

And not against chump teams, either. Maryland, OSU & NW on the road, and arguably the #1 team in the nation, as the only home game during that 5 game stretch, Purdue.

YET... yet we had leads in 3 of those 4 games, at halftime, but basically gassed out, got tired, wore down.


How can you guys not see this???



HALF the team is either not playing or is playing injured or hobbled or in pain.
 

SelectionSunday said:
Tubby Smith was not "let go" by Kentucky. He resigned and took the Minnesota job.
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Really??? UK fans wanted him OUT OF THERE!!! Not one UK fan on the planet was sad Tubby left.

OMG, just come on. Sure, maybe a technicality, but come on, the reality is, if he hadn't resigned, he probably would have gotten fired. My guess is they told him politely, that if he didn't resign, that they would fire him. I mean, you do realize that is probably the case, right???
 

builtbadgers said:
here are the defensive rankings for ALL of the 5 years. FOLLOW CLOSELY IF POSSIBLE
year one-78
year 2-90
year 3-163
year 4-22
year 5-129

learn how to read a trend line . That is not trending better. Look how poorly that compares just to decent teams in the power 5 conferences. Worse is how awful the offense is to go with it.
Click to expand...

I can read trend lines like you don't and won't EVER understand.

But the one thing about following trends, is that you can't always depend on them to be the end all and be all, especially when special circumstances occur that throw those trend lines for a loop, for example, A SINGLE INJURY to a STARTING player, can totally throw a trend line for a loop. Now add in a 2nd injury to a starter, and a 3rd and a 4th?? Are you serious???

Are you that simple minded and obtuse???
 

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