Frank Grimey Grimes
Active member
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2016
- Messages
- 856
- Reaction score
- 90
- Points
- 28
True, Musselman has an attractive wife too.
Who should be on the list?
- Thread starter howeda7
- Start date
True, Musselman has an attractive wife too.
rivergopher
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2009
- Messages
- 1,311
- Reaction score
- 733
- Points
- 113
I agree, much rather have him in here. I have said all along he gets next year. I just hope they don’t hesitate to do it after the year and do it half way next year that solves nothing. Coyle has his faults but Pitino is not his guy act decisively .
Doogie was on the radio today saying there's no chance he's fired. Which of course means there's a chance. The fact that we're going to lose by double digits to the worst Iowa team in years can't help.
rivergopher
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2009
- Messages
- 1,311
- Reaction score
- 733
- Points
- 113
I heard that as well, I got a 100 to start on the 5.4 million. Yep I think this team maybe worse than the 2-16 team pre sex tape. It’s fun when you get to pick which of the two worse big ten seasons in the history of the program is the most embarrassing.
5 years. 20+ games under .500 in conference. 1 NCAA appearance. Multiple sex scandals. Two of the worst B1G seasons of the last 30+ years.
rivergopher
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2009
- Messages
- 1,311
- Reaction score
- 733
- Points
- 113
I think he can get to 30-60 by the end the way this team plays defense.
QUOTE=howeda7;1511457]5 years. 20+ games under .500 in conference. 1 NCAA appearance. Multiple sex scandals. Two of the worst B1G seasons of the last 30+ years.[/QUOTE]
QUOTE=howeda7;1511457]5 years. 20+ games under .500 in conference. 1 NCAA appearance. Multiple sex scandals. Two of the worst B1G seasons of the last 30+ years.[/QUOTE]
Some Day...Maybe
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2010
- Messages
- 2,947
- Reaction score
- 1,451
- Points
- 113
If Coyle doesn’t fire him we know it’s because he didn’t have the political capital. The tight ass, know nothing about college athletics, typical MN politicians, block him from doing what he’d like. Including the Board of Regents.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Richard Pitino's B1G record is now WORSE than Dan Monson's: Richard is 30-53 (.361) and Dan was 44-68 (.393). I can't even fathom an argument that he deserves a chance to coach for his job next year without a major turnaround in these last 7 games.
I am not sure how much it was covered here, but Eric Musselman reportedly had the California job last year and called and turned them down at the last minute because he was uncomfortable with the process/who he'd work for there. If we want Musselman, we have to make a change this year as someone will take him away from Nevada this offseason. Depending on what happens at Michigan State (who likely won't be looking at the same candidates as Minnesota anyways) it's very possible that the Gophers job could be the only opening this offseason in the B1G.
Reasons to make a move this offseason
1. Job will be more attractive going in to '18-'19 than '19-20: A coach coming in next year will have a Senior Murphy, a Senior McBrayer, a Junior Coffey, and a Redshirt Sophomore Curry as sure thing B1G players. The coach will have an opportunity to hit the ground running and build momentum for his program with a real shot at the NCAA tournament in his first year. Wait a year and remove Murphy and McBrayer and be a full 2 years removed from the program being in the NCAA's and the job looks significantly less attractive.
2. 1 scholarship open for '18 and 2 for '19: Look at what happened with Pitino after his disastrous 3rd season. He lost out on long time target Theo John to Marquette and legacy recruit Jericho Sims to Texas (and if you want to be "unfair" Nate Reuvers to Wisconsin too). Think either of those bigs make a difference today? I certainly do. If he can't land that level of recruit in his 3rd year coming off a disaster, what can we hope he lands in '19? Michael Hurt seems to be moving further and further away with every loss. Do we want Pitino filling 3 more scholarships when he will be on the hottest seat in the B1G going in to '18-'19?
3. Diminishing fan interest: It took less than 1/2 a season for Pitino to lose all the goodwill he built up with Gopher fans after his 1 winning season. The Barn is back to being a sad, sad place. Coyle was concerned with fan interest with the football team, so I would assume he's also able to see what's happening with the basketball program.
4. Remember Dan Monson: He went 10-6 and made the NCAA tournament in his 6th year. His team was expected to be better the next year with the addition of Adam Boone and the return of All B1G Vincent Grier. That team nosedived to 5-11 in conference play and played in the NIT the next year. After their second round NIT loss, Monson was reportedly fired on the team bus. Except he wasn't. He was brought back for another year even though every follower of the program saw the writing on the wall. In order to try to save his job, Monson brought in two of the worst JUCO recruits I can recall in G Limar Wilson and F Engen Nurumbi. It didn't work. After his team basically quit on the floor against Clemson at home (and some really horrific losses to mid majors in a holiday tournament prior to that), Monson was fired just 7 games in to the season. This feels so much like Dan Monson 2.0 right now, lets not make the same mistake twice.
I am not sure how much it was covered here, but Eric Musselman reportedly had the California job last year and called and turned them down at the last minute because he was uncomfortable with the process/who he'd work for there. If we want Musselman, we have to make a change this year as someone will take him away from Nevada this offseason. Depending on what happens at Michigan State (who likely won't be looking at the same candidates as Minnesota anyways) it's very possible that the Gophers job could be the only opening this offseason in the B1G.
Reasons to make a move this offseason
1. Job will be more attractive going in to '18-'19 than '19-20: A coach coming in next year will have a Senior Murphy, a Senior McBrayer, a Junior Coffey, and a Redshirt Sophomore Curry as sure thing B1G players. The coach will have an opportunity to hit the ground running and build momentum for his program with a real shot at the NCAA tournament in his first year. Wait a year and remove Murphy and McBrayer and be a full 2 years removed from the program being in the NCAA's and the job looks significantly less attractive.
2. 1 scholarship open for '18 and 2 for '19: Look at what happened with Pitino after his disastrous 3rd season. He lost out on long time target Theo John to Marquette and legacy recruit Jericho Sims to Texas (and if you want to be "unfair" Nate Reuvers to Wisconsin too). Think either of those bigs make a difference today? I certainly do. If he can't land that level of recruit in his 3rd year coming off a disaster, what can we hope he lands in '19? Michael Hurt seems to be moving further and further away with every loss. Do we want Pitino filling 3 more scholarships when he will be on the hottest seat in the B1G going in to '18-'19?
3. Diminishing fan interest: It took less than 1/2 a season for Pitino to lose all the goodwill he built up with Gopher fans after his 1 winning season. The Barn is back to being a sad, sad place. Coyle was concerned with fan interest with the football team, so I would assume he's also able to see what's happening with the basketball program.
4. Remember Dan Monson: He went 10-6 and made the NCAA tournament in his 6th year. His team was expected to be better the next year with the addition of Adam Boone and the return of All B1G Vincent Grier. That team nosedived to 5-11 in conference play and played in the NIT the next year. After their second round NIT loss, Monson was reportedly fired on the team bus. Except he wasn't. He was brought back for another year even though every follower of the program saw the writing on the wall. In order to try to save his job, Monson brought in two of the worst JUCO recruits I can recall in G Limar Wilson and F Engen Nurumbi. It didn't work. After his team basically quit on the floor against Clemson at home (and some really horrific losses to mid majors in a holiday tournament prior to that), Monson was fired just 7 games in to the season. This feels so much like Dan Monson 2.0 right now, lets not make the same mistake twice.
For the entirety of the season 2 years ago, seemed like everyone was ready to pull the plug on Pitino, and were amazed that he got another year. A small few of us saw hope in the young guys either on the team or coming into the team in the future.
1st half of the B1G conf season last year all the Pitino haters were out in full force, the team had lost 3, then 4, then 5 in a row and the screams and cries to fire his arse were again loud as ever. But then the team started winning and winning and winning. And those of us who saw the hope in the young guys were now seeing those young guys playing better than they did their 1st year or their first 2, and this even included Konate and Gaston to small degrees. Winning streak got to 8, and by this time even the worst of the haters were silent for the most part, maybe just waiting for something to bitch about, and of course the loss to Wisconsin was followed by an injury to Springs and then a loss to Michigan and the loss to MTSU, so those naysayers and negative nancies saw hope that they could hate again maybe?
BUT, the future seemed really bright. Lost just one player and gained 3 I think it was, IW, Harris and Fitz.
I'd been arguing at a cbb board with fans from all over the country for the 4 previous seasons before THIS one, that the B1G conf was arguably the #1 or #2 toughest conference each of those last 4 seasons. My point? Comparing 4 or 5 year coaching stints from different periods is not fair, the B1G wasn't that great in the mid-90s for example, its had other down cycles. But it hasn't been down during Pitino's time here cept for last year the conference seemed to slip a little bit, maybe not top 2? But everyone knew that this year was going to be a down year for the B1G. AND, this was supposed to be UMn's and Pitino's BIG year, UMn's best since 97, which doesn't count, so best since 1990.
AND, if this season did result in a Sweet 16 or better, along with a Top 3 finish in Conf, I don't think ANYONE would be bitching about Pitino or his being X number of games below .500, and a 2-16 season is almost impossible to cancel out because even a 15-3 the next season still has you under .500. AND WHY?? Because that hope we all saw in the future would have been realized and the recruiting would have continued to get better, etc., etc.. AND, even if Pitino has issues when it comes to coaching, those wouldn't have been seen until we were not winning Elite 8 matchups or whatever. My point being that our success would have still be better than ever before in the past.
BUT...
Then Curry got hurt. And I just had this bad feeling that things weren't going to be as glorious as we had all hoped.
Then McBreyer got hurt and missed some key games, and I believe we lost 2 or 3 games with him out??
Then Mason got dinged up a bit.
Then the Lynch thing and Coffey going out, compounded by Murphy getting a little dinged, and then I read that out of our top 6 players,
2 were out rest or all of season,
2 were not even practicing because of nagging injuries,
2 were practicing and playing in some pain, not at 100%.
Coffey didn't play tonight, McBreyer was obviously not 100%.
And so the honest person, the person that doesn't hate Pitino, would see that these things are not his fault, really, outside of possibly bringing in Lynch. But no one was screaming loud and crying about Lynch when he was leading the nation in blocks, only AFTER the fact. Even the Pitino haters that were ripping Pitino last year in the 1st half of the conference season weren't bringing up Lynch's past. If it was SO obvious to everyone that he was a bad guy to go after, thinking back, I don't remember anyone ragging on Lynch back then, either. Fans at his old team's forum were talking about how he wasn't going to leave the team, or how pathetic it was that Minnesota was stealing another one of their players, no one was saying, "Take him, he's a creep, we don't want him". And I don't remember Minnesota fans talking down about him. SO AMAZING how now all of you have become geniuses with the advantage of hindsight. Pathetic.
If the metoo thing hadn't started up this fall, those two women who Reggie claims are lying, wouldn't have even come forward. If they are not lying, I am pleased that they did come forward, and I'm not against the Metoo movement, just saying that its an issue of bad timing for Pitino and Lynch and our Gophers, as well as all of the massive number of injuries.
It's just bad luck.
I mean yeah, his 5 year record doesn't look impressive, but going into the NCAA tourney, even Bennett at Wisconsin was several games below .500 in conference play after 5 years. Had UMn gone 13-5 this season, Pitino's 5 year conf record wouldn't have looked much worse than Bennett's.
So is it really fair now that all this bad luck has caused this season to suck so bad, to blame it on Pitino???
All we needed was one good run in the NCAA tourney, that most thought would happen this year, and his recruiting would have improved another notch. Instead of 1-2 Top 100 guys and some in the 101-200 range, he could have maybe started to get 1-2 Top 50 and 2-4 Top 100 guys depending on the size of the classes. Now he's going to have to do that with improved facilities alone I guess, IF the haters here don't somehow figure out a way to run him off first.
Seems we should have gone with Flip back when Tubby got fired. Would have probably made a bigger recruiting splash right off the bat, probably not had to resort to bringing in the likes of Konate or Gaston, or some of the other guys that didn't work out so well or caused troubles. OR, he would have maybe brought in a better class of guys and then when he died, instead of people looking badly at us, they would have felt badly for us, his dying right at the beginning of the season, but we'd have 2-3 of his recruiting classes here right now. And then we could have gone after a bigger fish what with the money for the new facilities almost all garnered by that time???
But no, some of you hated the idea of Flip so much. HATED the idea. And so now you got someone else like you wanted and you hate him instead.
SOMEDAY... this program will bring in the Magical Super Powered BB coach that just instantly starts winning and bringing in all the best recruits, is a genius when it comes to the Xs and Os of coaching, never has any problems with his players, and if I am not dead before this happens, THEN I will believe that's possible. Until then, well, I just don't think its that easy, especially for a program like Minnesota, even with our new facilities. Baseball team got a new Stadium and hasn't done squat in the NCAA tourney since. Rowing got new facilities and has yet to do anything significant. Softball brought in a ringer of a coach and improved, sure, but ZERO CWS' so far. VB brought in maybe the ringer of all ringers of coaches, and no Titles yet. Football team builds a new stadium, garners the money for new facilities, brings in the hottest young coach, and has one of it's worst seasons in awhile.
I mean, its just not as easy as some of you seem to think.
There are over 300 other college basketball programs out there who are also trying to find that magic coach, and around 100 of those have better cbb resumes than UMn has, and if those kinds of coaches are out there, the Duke's, UK's, KU's & UNC's already hired them and those guys would NEVER EVER EVER leave those places to come here, unless they got run out of those places like Tubby was.
Maybe Musselman is that guy? I mean, if Pitino gets run out of here and I end up being wrong and Muss comes in and totally starts killing it, I'll be the most humble and thankful guy around, and SO PLEASED that I was wrong!!!!
But I just think Pitino deserves a little more time. Til the end of next season at least. If EVERYONE stays healthy next year and we struggle to win games we should, because of coaching mistakes by Pitino, maybe I'll totally change my tune.
1st half of the B1G conf season last year all the Pitino haters were out in full force, the team had lost 3, then 4, then 5 in a row and the screams and cries to fire his arse were again loud as ever. But then the team started winning and winning and winning. And those of us who saw the hope in the young guys were now seeing those young guys playing better than they did their 1st year or their first 2, and this even included Konate and Gaston to small degrees. Winning streak got to 8, and by this time even the worst of the haters were silent for the most part, maybe just waiting for something to bitch about, and of course the loss to Wisconsin was followed by an injury to Springs and then a loss to Michigan and the loss to MTSU, so those naysayers and negative nancies saw hope that they could hate again maybe?
BUT, the future seemed really bright. Lost just one player and gained 3 I think it was, IW, Harris and Fitz.
I'd been arguing at a cbb board with fans from all over the country for the 4 previous seasons before THIS one, that the B1G conf was arguably the #1 or #2 toughest conference each of those last 4 seasons. My point? Comparing 4 or 5 year coaching stints from different periods is not fair, the B1G wasn't that great in the mid-90s for example, its had other down cycles. But it hasn't been down during Pitino's time here cept for last year the conference seemed to slip a little bit, maybe not top 2? But everyone knew that this year was going to be a down year for the B1G. AND, this was supposed to be UMn's and Pitino's BIG year, UMn's best since 97, which doesn't count, so best since 1990.
AND, if this season did result in a Sweet 16 or better, along with a Top 3 finish in Conf, I don't think ANYONE would be bitching about Pitino or his being X number of games below .500, and a 2-16 season is almost impossible to cancel out because even a 15-3 the next season still has you under .500. AND WHY?? Because that hope we all saw in the future would have been realized and the recruiting would have continued to get better, etc., etc.. AND, even if Pitino has issues when it comes to coaching, those wouldn't have been seen until we were not winning Elite 8 matchups or whatever. My point being that our success would have still be better than ever before in the past.
BUT...
Then Curry got hurt. And I just had this bad feeling that things weren't going to be as glorious as we had all hoped.
Then McBreyer got hurt and missed some key games, and I believe we lost 2 or 3 games with him out??
Then Mason got dinged up a bit.
Then the Lynch thing and Coffey going out, compounded by Murphy getting a little dinged, and then I read that out of our top 6 players,
2 were out rest or all of season,
2 were not even practicing because of nagging injuries,
2 were practicing and playing in some pain, not at 100%.
Coffey didn't play tonight, McBreyer was obviously not 100%.
And so the honest person, the person that doesn't hate Pitino, would see that these things are not his fault, really, outside of possibly bringing in Lynch. But no one was screaming loud and crying about Lynch when he was leading the nation in blocks, only AFTER the fact. Even the Pitino haters that were ripping Pitino last year in the 1st half of the conference season weren't bringing up Lynch's past. If it was SO obvious to everyone that he was a bad guy to go after, thinking back, I don't remember anyone ragging on Lynch back then, either. Fans at his old team's forum were talking about how he wasn't going to leave the team, or how pathetic it was that Minnesota was stealing another one of their players, no one was saying, "Take him, he's a creep, we don't want him". And I don't remember Minnesota fans talking down about him. SO AMAZING how now all of you have become geniuses with the advantage of hindsight. Pathetic.
If the metoo thing hadn't started up this fall, those two women who Reggie claims are lying, wouldn't have even come forward. If they are not lying, I am pleased that they did come forward, and I'm not against the Metoo movement, just saying that its an issue of bad timing for Pitino and Lynch and our Gophers, as well as all of the massive number of injuries.
It's just bad luck.
I mean yeah, his 5 year record doesn't look impressive, but going into the NCAA tourney, even Bennett at Wisconsin was several games below .500 in conference play after 5 years. Had UMn gone 13-5 this season, Pitino's 5 year conf record wouldn't have looked much worse than Bennett's.
So is it really fair now that all this bad luck has caused this season to suck so bad, to blame it on Pitino???
All we needed was one good run in the NCAA tourney, that most thought would happen this year, and his recruiting would have improved another notch. Instead of 1-2 Top 100 guys and some in the 101-200 range, he could have maybe started to get 1-2 Top 50 and 2-4 Top 100 guys depending on the size of the classes. Now he's going to have to do that with improved facilities alone I guess, IF the haters here don't somehow figure out a way to run him off first.
Seems we should have gone with Flip back when Tubby got fired. Would have probably made a bigger recruiting splash right off the bat, probably not had to resort to bringing in the likes of Konate or Gaston, or some of the other guys that didn't work out so well or caused troubles. OR, he would have maybe brought in a better class of guys and then when he died, instead of people looking badly at us, they would have felt badly for us, his dying right at the beginning of the season, but we'd have 2-3 of his recruiting classes here right now. And then we could have gone after a bigger fish what with the money for the new facilities almost all garnered by that time???
But no, some of you hated the idea of Flip so much. HATED the idea. And so now you got someone else like you wanted and you hate him instead.
SOMEDAY... this program will bring in the Magical Super Powered BB coach that just instantly starts winning and bringing in all the best recruits, is a genius when it comes to the Xs and Os of coaching, never has any problems with his players, and if I am not dead before this happens, THEN I will believe that's possible. Until then, well, I just don't think its that easy, especially for a program like Minnesota, even with our new facilities. Baseball team got a new Stadium and hasn't done squat in the NCAA tourney since. Rowing got new facilities and has yet to do anything significant. Softball brought in a ringer of a coach and improved, sure, but ZERO CWS' so far. VB brought in maybe the ringer of all ringers of coaches, and no Titles yet. Football team builds a new stadium, garners the money for new facilities, brings in the hottest young coach, and has one of it's worst seasons in awhile.
I mean, its just not as easy as some of you seem to think.
There are over 300 other college basketball programs out there who are also trying to find that magic coach, and around 100 of those have better cbb resumes than UMn has, and if those kinds of coaches are out there, the Duke's, UK's, KU's & UNC's already hired them and those guys would NEVER EVER EVER leave those places to come here, unless they got run out of those places like Tubby was.
Maybe Musselman is that guy? I mean, if Pitino gets run out of here and I end up being wrong and Muss comes in and totally starts killing it, I'll be the most humble and thankful guy around, and SO PLEASED that I was wrong!!!!
But I just think Pitino deserves a little more time. Til the end of next season at least. If EVERYONE stays healthy next year and we struggle to win games we should, because of coaching mistakes by Pitino, maybe I'll totally change my tune.
This feels exactly like 05-06 but worse. Monson got that team, untalented as they were to rally and win some big games, including beating two ranked teams. This team has no such fight. Mason has given up and no one is stepping into the void.
Whenever someone mentions Nurumbi I immediately have a vivid flashback of one stellar play of his. It was a fastbreak down the floor where someone threw the ball ahead to him and he proceeded to slam the ball off of the backboard in his layup attempt. The ball wasn't even close to the rim. It was the equivalent of shooting a free throw and throwing it off the top of the backboard. Makes me laugh everytime. Ol' Rumblin' Nurumbi...
Defensive efficiency ranking of Pitino's teams:
2014: #78
2015: #90
2016: #163
2017: #22
2018: #129
Last year is feeling like a fluke or anomaly. P!ss poor defense will never get it done in the Big Ten. I don't have any confidence or reason to believe that next year will be any different.
builtbadgers
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2012
- Messages
- 8,037
- Reaction score
- 4,535
- Points
- 113
He gets next year but your acting like 2-16 is not his fault. Your saying if he went 13-5 this year that would be near Bennett ! Hardly, the Big Ten was stacked then and you still would need that pesky, or what you call lucky.Look at who that team played, who they beat. Luck does not do that. They did what they did without a 1st,2nd or 3rd team all conference player. He got the job as their first choice on the best recommendation in the world. That hire was contingent to get the Kohl Center paid for 90 % up front by Herb Kohl, Ab Nicholas so they could do a complete makeover with a master builder that the best coaches in the game flocked to his clinics to learn. We got our 7th choice. Other schools have done it besides the blue bloods. UW did it. UVA did it in a grand slam hire, But hit the jackpot 3 times, Xavier, Illinois with Self. Rhode Island did it with Danny Hurley. Vandy will prove Bryce Drew to be a great hire. In the youth of my career i sat on search committees. I saw how Pat Richter got Alvarez and Bennett. Fans did not know but the coaching legends did. The clowns here have never hired the right AD to hire the right coaches. Fleck has the best chance as he was the best hire because they used the opinion of several highly respected coaches. Teague panicked and hired Pitino not on his body of work or peer recommendation but on his last name. With all that said i want him to have one more year. Lets see him deliver that 16-2 type record. Never even discussed the low level of character he has recruited, not acceptable.
Last year wasn't a fluke, the 2016 team was one of the youngest in the country. The 2nd year players stats had almost all improved from the year before, and the frosh had decent seasons and ALOT of games were lost by only a few points.
There were a few of us that saw this and argued with all the Pitino haters about it.
And those few of us all made comments last year that in some way or degree or another said, "I told you so!"
Don't you remember the huge improvement from 1987&88 to 1989? And then again more improvement in 1990.
This group that lost so many games in 2016 SO reminded me of that first group of Haskin's players.
This year should have been just like 1990, better than the year before.
But ALL SIX of our top 6 players either out for the season or hobbled or out for several games each or portions of games at least???
Come on.
That 05-06 team brought everyone back with the exceptions of Hagen, Robinson, and Lawson. The consensus was the team would be more talented with Boone coming off a redshirt year upgrading the PG spot, Grier as a Senior, Stamper as a Senior, Tollackson and Coleman improving as Sophomores...it was a shock that the team went from 10-6 to 5-11. It became clear that Boone was a downgrade despite his UNC pedigree and Grier had a terrible Senior year and everything went to @#$%.
I definitely agree that this year is far worse though. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first time since the NCAA Tournament expanded to 64 teams that a team that was seeded as high as #5 and returning all 5 starters will miss the tournament. I didn't think the team was playing as hard as last year before Lynch was lost, and now the effort level seems to vary from barely acceptable to comically bad.
Part of me wonders how important Springs was to this team. I posted that we'd miss his leadership and his size (bulk) at the guard spot, but couldn't imagine he'd make this much of a difference. The cynic in me looks at Springs and Lynch as two guys who played multiple seasons elsewhere as maybe the two most important pieces of Pitino's only good defensive team (as GibsonSG points out) and wonder if Pitino was just the beneficiary of someone else's coaching.
You are in love with the Bennett way, eh?
Well, hate to break it to you, but everyone makes fun of the Bennett way. It does NOT win championships, not at the Div 1 level, or hasn't yet. And it is not very entertaining.
And I'm not saying 2-16 wasn't partly his fault. That 2-16 season is really the only reason a 13-5 record for Pitino this season wouldn't have crushed Bennett's 5 year conf record.
But Bennett only went 8-8 in conference in his 5th season. Their run to the FF was a fluke, as is evidenced by his successor taking a very long time to get back there playing the same kind of style, and actually doing better than Bennett did, he even won Conf Titles, but its not the kind of ball that gets you deep in the NCAA tourney without a ton of work, or like Bennett his 5th year, luck.
And how many Final Fours has Bennett at Virginia been to?
We've had this discussion before, you can tell us all day long how wonderful the Bennett way is, but its boring basketball and it wins Conf Titles but not NCAA Titles, and hardly can get those Conf Title winning teams past the Sweet 16, much less into the Final Four.
AND ITS BORING.
If we gotta get rid of Pitino, then this Musselman guy sounds like a good coach. But I just won't feel right about it and will hope that there is no such thing as Karma.
builtbadgers
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2012
- Messages
- 8,037
- Reaction score
- 4,535
- Points
- 113
He can not be blamed for injuries but you have not addressed the defensive rankings over the years or the poor characters brought into the program. Why will you not address those concerns. That is how problems get solved. I am sick of yje idea that being mediocre is acceptable especially in a big ten that has had some strength at the top but it has not been like there are 5 great programs, hall of fame coaches etc.. not like it use to be or not like the ACC.
What part of 6 of the Top 6 players being injured or out, for part, much or all of the season makes you surprised that we are losing a lot of games???
I just don't understand this mentality amongst Gopher fans???
What happened to the team that lost Jacobson?? Just ONE PLAYER gets injured and the entire season went to crap.
Oh, and the 05-06 team? Well, Grier had a bad season? Whose fault was that? Boone left UNC for a reason. We all hoped he was just not AS GOOD as the guys he played behind at UNC, but we found out he was ALL HYPE, and UNC figured that out and was glad to let him come play for us.
But I'm not hearing about the Top 6 guys all being injured for part, most or all of the season???
Yes, losing Springs hurt. But if not for all of these injuries/suspensions compounding one upon each other, this season would have gone much better.
Curry & McBreyer were out for what? 2 or all 3 of our first 3 losses?
When Mason was dinged up in Dec? Did we lose any games he was out or hobbled in? Did any of the games he was playing hurt or was out correspond to when McBreyer and Curry were out? Because that would be HALF of the Top 6 players being out then, not just 1/3rd.
Now when Lynch and Coffey went out, then that was HALF of the Top 6 players, not just dinged up or playing hurt, but OUT
O
U
T
OUT!!!!
And with those 3 out, my guess is guys were getting overly stressed and frustrated and everything else and negativity breeds negativity and when those 2 went out making it THREE of the Top 6 out, how can you tell me that a negative vibe didn't come into play???
Were the left over guys honestly supposed to believe that if they played hard enough, that they would still win???
MAYBE that is why all 3 of the guys left are now or have been injured and out or playing hurt and some not even being allowed to practice??????
I mean come on.
Even the Iron 5 had 5 incredible players left to play on. Do we have a Dave Winfield out there to help out??? Well, nowadays, even if we did, the Baseball coach wouldn't let him play bb, for fear that he'd get injured.
MSU, for sure. Until recently, Izzo was impossible to beat in recruiting heading to HOF
Wisconsin, until just this year they were best in the conference basically. Could bounce back come next year?
Purdue, last 2 years for sure!
Maryland, came into B1G with mojo and always finish in Top 1/3rd of conf.
Michigan, rarely are they an easy win, often are tough as heck
Ohio St, not as good as a few years back, but rarely an easy win, often are tough as heck
Indiana, no where near the blue blood they used to be, but they rarely suck this bad, and still they beat us
maybe Iowa? Always seem to be fighting to get into post season, sometimes only NIT, but still
maybe Nebraska, lots of Gopher fans like their coach, and new facilities.
maybe Illinois? Kind of Jekyll and Hyde, but they have good years.
even NW's been doing well lately.
Ok, PSU & Rutgers suck. Breaking into the Top 5 of the B1G is never an easy task.
Gopher fans far too often seem to want Heaven on Earth with the Devil running the place. They seem to want the best coach out there, who runs a clean program but isn't too churchy and gets the best players out there and we think we deserve them, too, but they also want only good little church boys with absolutely no ego, but the greatest work ethic ever, and smarter than Ivy league players, who play great lock down defense and also score a ton of points and slam dunk the ball a lot and block a ton of shots, oh, but also get a ton of rebounds, too.
lol Totally realistic goals, what am I thinking?
And when the guy doesn't deliver right away or soon enough, we run him out of town, b1tch about having to pay off his contract, b1tch about the ticket prices and show their undying support by refusing to go to games if the team isn't winning or killing themselves trying to win.
UMn could have the worst fans in the country. There are exceptions of course, some of the women's sports.
It seems to me tat we have super high standards for no legitimate reason, and those who have reasonable standards are constantly berated by other fans for accepting mediocrity. For decades UMn has ranked almost last in the B1G for facilities and how much we pay our coaches and coaching staffs.
FAR too many U alum, it seems, out there who basically don't want anything to do with us after they leave. Others who don't want to donate to the U, either because they are cheapskates or have some kind of issue with the U or just went there to get a degree and just don't care really?
Ric Flair doesn't claim us.
Does Lehman do anything for or with the U?
Does Winfield do anything with the U?
And of the retired Pro Fb HOFers? Sanders? Bell? Eller? I mean other than showing up for a 1960 Title honoring ceremony that happens once.
Any of the Cargill bunch that went to the U do anything for or with the U?
Sanford doesn't give us any money. Now that may not be the U's fault totally, but just saying
And who is the famous actor or actress that goes to all of our games? Musicians maybe? Yanni? Dylan?
We are mostly cheap skates and proud of it. Not sure how long it took for the U to finally get the money together for the new football stadium? Several years if I remember right? And then the facilities fund didn't materialize overnight, either and it took decades of never winning by being cheap skates for the U or the State to finally do something about it. We fans know that there are other options, so we pick and choose who we show our support to according to who entertains us the best or is winning the most. We are a state/fanbase of almost total bandwagoners. For some reason we really love our pro sports, guys we PAY to come here, and who can and do leave whenever they want, really. And we make heroes out of those who stay longer than maybe they should.
But it seems like our college teams, have to win, and win without support or decent facilities and without paying the coaches good money. We wonder why natives choose to go elsewhere and only high risk players or guys who got passed over by others are willing to come here to live and play in the cold. Black athletes have to be surrounded by mostly white fellow students. And yes, that is changing, but its still a factor.
Oh, and if for some reason we feel we have the best facilities and recruiting advantages, then ALOT of Gopher fans feel UMn has to win every year and has to always do better than our instate rivals, being #10 in the nation isn't good enough. Having a coach with the 2nd most Natl Titles in all of chk isn't good enough. We move conferences and it seems like everyone whines and complains and stops going to games as if all their whining and not going to games will force the U to go back to a conference that doesn't exist anymore, or hardly does. Or it will get them to fire the coach whose doing as well as almost everyone else, but that's not good enough. Beating 4 Top 4 ranked teams is not good enough somehow because we lost to UMD?
So Pitino was our 7th choice???
Then why and how do we expect so much from him???
First of all, the U probably didn't even go after the very best guys out there, because we knew they'd say no. And we STILL had to settle for our 7th choice. But yet now we'll get our 1st choice??
Does anyone have any clue if Musselman is even open to the idea???
Because so many of us always think we can do better.
DESPITE the fact so many Gopher fans hate our AD and President and have very little faith in them.
Somehow those fans think the idiots that we hate that screwed it up in the first place will bring in the perfect guy and make it all better???
WTF???
What planet do you all live on?
What is the buyout for Pitino's contract? 5.4 million? if we let him go at the end of this year?
Come on all you GH Pitino haters, cough up the dough. You can come up with that much. I'm sure of it.
IF, and that is a big IF, but if the U does pull the plug on Pitino, there will be a ton of you whining and b1tching about having to pay off his contract for years to come.
And IF Musselman gets a 2nd DUI, will you all question the AD for hiring someone with a questionable past?
Man, it seems that if its not one thing with you people, its just something else.
It was only 2-3 years ago that I still thought that Gopher fans were some of the best in the country. But the last 2-3 years I've just started to notice things and see things and read things and rethink things. Outsiders do NOT consider Minnesota fans the best fan base. WHY??? Why would they???
Sure, we have lots of options, but MAYBE you should just pick one and stick with them, be a die hard fan to that one sport no matter what, through thick and thin, through bad and good coaches. Give that team your full support and be happy if you hear on the news that other teams did well, too, maybe? But give at least one team your undying and total support, meaning going to games when the coach sucks and the players don't play hard enough, cheer loudly and make them feel appreciated and supported and then maybe they will play harder? Give that program your money and help fill up the seats so recruits will see that fans support the team whether they win or lose? Just a thought?
I don't know? Do we as fans deserve having players that play their guts out, while injured? Even when they do, we still seem to feel its not enough???
Maybe Pitino will do us a favor and leave on his own??? Why not? We're not even willing to give him a break when half his team is out or playing hurt. OMG?
Pitino CHOSE UMn. Our players CHOSE UMn. And UMn hired and recruited them.
As fans, MAYBE all we should be doing is supporting them. MAYBE we should let the professionals do the hiring and firing.
Bad Gopher
A Loner, A Rebel
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2008
- Messages
- 23,200
- Reaction score
- 10,388
- Points
- 113
I've wondered this, too. Springs came in knowing how to play defense and, by all accounts, was a coach on the floor. We've yet to see Pitino coach up a good defender. One way or another, if your team can't defend and rebound, it's playing with one hand behind its back. You can't outscore everyone.
Some Day...Maybe
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2010
- Messages
- 2,947
- Reaction score
- 1,451
- Points
- 113
builtbadgers
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2012
- Messages
- 8,037
- Reaction score
- 4,535
- Points
- 113
Still have not addressed how all the programs i mentioned did it with integrity and by this point were very far along. You have not addressed the defense and the character issue. None of those schools i mentioned was a easy turn around. I said i want him back next year but what will you want if after 3 more years and your sitting at 8 years still under .400 in the conference. Please comment on the defensive fail as not a single sustainable great program was built without it. i do get the injuries but not the horrific defense and shot selection. You must have non negotiables in your system.
builtbadgers
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2012
- Messages
- 8,037
- Reaction score
- 4,535
- Points
- 113
Wonder why every coach, including little Ricks dad love the UVA style. Super efficient offense and stopping people and winning is boring ! Your entitled your opinion. You keep saying final 4's. Damn, how about not being putrid much less being able to compete for conference championships, actually winning them. TONY Bennett does not need me to promote him. Look at his wiki page for some reference of what got done. I have had gopher seats for 50 years and we would build 5 statues if we had half that success here. Your asking for final 4's and national titles from the guy we have and you find it exciting ! What have we had at Williams Arena in 50 years that reaches that level of excitement. Did you find Butlers low scoring battles over the years boring, Uconn against Duke. I wonder why Williams arena attendance is so poor over so many years. Must not be exciting. Google Pitino senior to see what he says about UVA on you tube.
Just win baby. All of the fanbases at the schools there mentioned would question and whine after having a run like this program has had. Do Illinois fans seem happy? Penn State fill up arenas? Would Michigan support having a losing decade? Did they? The Ellerbe and Amaker days that place was quiet as can be. Was Wisconsin filling arenas in the 80s and 90s when they were terrible? I doubt it.
I'm all for keeping Pitino and I have no grand illusions of winning final fours all the time, etc. But I expect a program that puts out a winner every now and then. Be in the mix or IN the big dance almost every year. Move up into the top of the conference a few times every 10 year stretch. Hell, WIN a BT title or make a sweet sixteen.
To sit here and say support a loser no matter what is silly. No fan base supports a loser. Let alone a loser that doesn't give any effort.
My opinion on this whole deal is that we know what Minnesota is, right? We aren't getting the high end recruits, just aren't most likely. Steal a good one from in state, YES THIS HAS TO HAPPEN. But more than anything else, a culture of playing harder than anyone else and playing defense better than anyone else has to happen here or it will never turn around. We will simply be "out-talented" almost every time we step on the floor.
Ok, I'm long winded enough, lol, you maybe don't have to quote my entire posts when you respond to me, I've got no problem with you editing my posts. SO, I'll try to shorten my posts for everyone's sake.
Defense? Well, last year the team's def rating was pretty good. I believe without all the injuries and suspensions, it would have been much better than it is, maybe not as good as last year as Springs seemed to be a big factor.
Also, players playing hurt sometimes are going to struggle to play great defense. Doesn't mean they are not playing hard or trying. McBreyer not even practicing, OR Coffey now hurt again wasn't practicing even, these injured players were playing in pain, because they want to win, they want to help the team, and everyone ragging on them for not trying should be ashamed of themselves. They are tired and banged up and over matched. Maybe these guys, when healthy or with support from a full lineup ARE better players than the guy guarding them or that they are guarding or matching up against, but when not playing at 100%, they will struggle to defend like they can when healthy, and they will not be able to get as good of shots or as good of drives, etc., as when they are healthy. Playing so short handed and so dinged up is going to negatively affect your DE and your OE. How some of you can't see that is beyond me.
Integrity??
Well, maybe I am just making excuses and maybe that's not a good thing, especially when it comes to something as important as integrity. But when we look at all of the guys on the roster now, outside of Lynch, its all good guys. I'm guessing you are talking about mostly guys he pulled in to fill in holes and such in the first couple of seasons, right? Well, unlike when Haskins showed up or when Monson or even Tubby showed up, this program wasn't a dumpster fire needing a rebuild.
We asked our 7th choice, and those are only the guys we asked, a couple guys near the top of everyone's list probably didn't even get approached because everyone knew they'd never consider UMn. So we asked this guy, very young, with very little experience, to come in and IMPROVE on what Tubby had done. Tubby was arguably a successful coach, lots of Gopher fans didn't agree with his being fired, TONS of outsiders questioned the firing, and then instead of bringing in a guy like Flip who could have probably hit the floor running, we bring in this young Pitino guy, like everyone points out, our 7th choice, and what? We expect him to just start winning right away???
Would fans have been ok with the team having back to back seasons like 1987 & 88???
And unlilke 87 & 88, Pitino honestly probably didn't have the juice to bring in a stellar class that would start crushing it by their Junior seasons. He had to work hard to keep improving on the classes he was bringing in. So it would have been more like 3 straight horrible seasons before they started being able to compete with B1G programs, if he had built the team from the ground up, with "integrity" and nothing but good young kids.
He was our SEVENTH CHOICE!!!!!!
He had very little real head coaching experience. All he had going for him was basically his name.
But you have to know the pressure from Gopher fans to win was on him from Day 1. People EXPECTED ALOT, but expected not much from the youngen.
So he probably took a few chances, rolled the dice with a few guys, the only one of which would still be with our program today had he panned out was Lynch, and honestly, he could still be found innocent.
I'm not saying I'm pleased he took those chances, and how risky were these chances, were some of these guys honest to goodness bad seeds that all Gopher fans were objecting to at the time Pitino brought them in, or did they turn into bad seeds only after showing up? I don't remember honestly.
But it does seem like he's trending in the right direction in this regard. Now that he has more time to recruit and is not in a kind of desperation mode, he can go after a better kind of player.
So is it an issue? Maybe it was? Is it now or does it look like it will be in the future? I don't think so.
builtbadgers
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2012
- Messages
- 8,037
- Reaction score
- 4,535
- Points
- 113
What about those numbers from day one. Great coaches instill that on day one, still lose many games but set the foundation. In addition, great defense reveals your mental and physical toughness and your opponent knows it and feels it.
BarnBurner
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2010
- Messages
- 19,789
- Reaction score
- 4,522
- Points
- 113
When Monson came to town it was the lowest point for Gopher BB, ever, imo. NO ONE would take this job. No one. MN bared their chest and WELCOMED the punishment. Encouraged the punishment. Every some GH gods of BB board advocated for harsh punishment!!!!!! MN is holier than thou.
Contrast that stance with the MSU and Tar Heels?
builtbadgers
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2012
- Messages
- 8,037
- Reaction score
- 4,535
- Points
- 113
Very sorry to all for my serious lack of how to use the board correctly from a technical standpoint. Fyi Klime, we are not all cheap. Some of us have forked over very significant amounts of money. Really think most fans are bandwagon. In the Big 10 only Indiana maintained big crowds during their wretched stage which of course was short . Plus they are a basketball centric state. I have season tickets here, UW, UVA and my alma-UCLA . UW had a faithful 5000 pre Bennett, 20 years of sell outs and now i see empty seats. UVA was a ghost town pre TB and now it is packed and has a huge road contingent. UCLA is the worst, win huge or no one goes. What do you expect if your the school who only hangs national title banners, not even conference or final 4's. No NIT there. Fans here want to compete at the top of the conference in Hoops. Football, beat UW and Iowa once in awhile, maybe make the conference title game once every 10 years. Hockey is different. There are what, 60-70 teams with a built in advantage so fans expect frozen 4. Your right though, Don has done a great job. Fyi, Lehman has done a ton for the U , bUT THE BIG MONEY WESTERN SUBURBS have allegiances to the arts, medicine and their own Alma's. Golf buddy i travel with gives a million a year to Duke !
No, its not silly. Die hard fans should go to games and support the team win or lose. If the coach sucks, who's fault is that, the players that chose to come to UMn and play? No. And sometimes it's not the coaches fault either. UMn hired the person. Until UMn fires them or lets them go, we should at least support the players that come to play for the program.
If the Arena is full, and only Dusty Rychart is out there playing his heart out, then that full Arena getting up and clapping and cheering loudly for him when he dives for a loose ball or gets a steal or makes a block or gets fouled while making the bucket, etc., then his teammates who are not trying hard, may get jealous and want some of that applause and praise as well and they may play harder, and if the coach is being lazy and uninspired but the cheering crowds get all of his players playing their hearts out, then maybe he'll find the inspiration to try harder.
A guy like McBreyer walking around between games in a foot boot and not practicing but gutting it out in games, in front of dwindling crowds who claim he is not trying hard enough or the coach should have them winning more by now, doesn't inspire anyone and its a testament to the guy, to HIS integrity and his heart that he's trying so hard for a fan base that turns on him and claims he's not trying hard enough.
Same can be said of Coffey who came back well before Feb 2nd when he was originally said to come back, only to reinjure or aggravate the injury again. He also wasn't practicing but only trying to play games to help the team win.
Do we really know how much pain guys like Mason or Murphy are in during games?
McBreyer is obviously playing with pain, Curry, Lynch & Coffey are all completely out of the lineup.
The team doesn't practice with Coffey and McBreyer, or wasn't when Coffey was still able to play in games, but somehow Pitino's supposed to have the team ready to BEAT B1G competition in games???
I just don't get it. Did ANY of you play sports at all??? I did. I played a lot of sports. And just one player can make a huge difference in a sport like basketball with only 5 guys on the court at a time and only 13 allowed to be on scholarship.
But we are not down 1, or even 2, but more like 3.5. The .5 being the combination of McBreyer's not being even close to 100% and maybe Mason and/or Murphy not being at 100% either?
Whether Pitino deserves it or not, the players DO DESERVE OUR SUPPORT!!!
builtbadgers
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2012
- Messages
- 8,037
- Reaction score
- 4,535
- Points
- 113
Agree. I support this entire team to the end whatever they may be. Players and coaches have worked incredibly hard to get to this stage but we do have to move past the woe is me. When Pat Richter stepped down after a great run as a business exec to take the UW job he forbid any talk of what we could not be and they decided to build brick by brick with a hard nosed approach, defense first. UW was dead. Football regular attendance of 35, 000, basketball 5000. He went far and wide with recommendations on Alvarez and the focus on defense and a killer offensive line. With Bennett they went with the Bobby Knight, John Wooden and Al Mcguire endorsement whom famously said why look far when the secretariat of builders was in his back yard. If you can build a winner at UWSP, Green Bay you could win anywhere. The key was who he was and the support he got.