Who should be on the list?

Very sorry to all for my serious lack of how to use the board correctly from a technical standpoint. Fyi Klime, we are not all cheap. Some of us have forked over very significant amounts of money. Really think most fans are bandwagon. In the Big 10 only Indiana maintained big crowds during their wretched stage which of course was short . Plus they are a basketball centric state. I have season tickets here, UW, UVA and my alma-UCLA . UW had a faithful 5000 pre Bennett, 20 years of sell outs and now i see empty seats. UVA was a ghost town pre TB and now it is packed and has a huge road contingent. UCLA is the worst, win huge or no one goes. What do you expect if your the school who only hangs national title banners, not even conference or final 4's. No NIT there. Fans here want to compete at the top of the conference in Hoops. Football, beat UW and Iowa once in awhile, maybe make the conference title game once every 10 years. Hockey is different. There are what, 60-70 teams with a built in advantage so fans expect frozen 4. Your right though, Don has done a great job. Fyi, Lehman has done a ton for the U , bUT THE BIG MONEY WESTERN SUBURBS have allegiances to the arts, medicine and their own Alma's. Golf buddy i travel with gives a million a year to Duke !


Good to hear about Lehman. Played 9 holes with him once when I was a teenager, beat him on 2 holes, too. lol
I didn't know about all of those I listed, and why I was asking.



Oh, I don't think ALL UMn fans are cheap, seems Baseball folk give back, and other programs find support out there. And there are probably things that can be pointed to, that explain why so many are.

From 68 to 96, outside of men's hockey and maybe men's gymnastics? How many Gopher sports teams were any good? The bb team was until Dutcher was almost done, but both Muss and Dutch's UMn resumes were stained with ugly scandals and NCAA investigations.

Also, back in the 60s and 70s and perhaps in the 80s and early 90s as well, the U struggled with issues of being a commuter school, to a larger degree than other universities, and so a lot of those commuter students didn't soak in the college environment that students at other schools so often do. Combined with the football team never really inspiring much in the way of excitement and the bb team just screwing up everytime it managed to find some success.

I'm not saying I'm an expert on the subject, but I believe I got the impression the U was trying to change things, the whole commuter thing, and was trying to make an effort to improve its sports teams, too.


But that would be almost 3 decades of alumni out there who might simply have come and gone and not developed an affection for the school. Also, a lot of Wisconsin residents came to the U as well, and a lot of them remained loyal to the Badgers. Not having an outdoor football stadium didn't help, either.


Just the combination of diehards claiming that they don't want to support teams that are not winning or are not trying (hence we find tons of empty seats for hockey and mens bb and football, too, which for such a small stadium could be argued is inexcusable) and the non-die hards saying they'd rather invest time and/or money in teams like the Vikes or T-Pups or Wild because a crippled bb team supposedly isn't trying hard enough or the #11 ranked hockey team with its 4 Top 4 wins isn't winning enough or trying hard enough? The idea that the men's hockey team should somehow always be ranked Top 4 in the country is just BEYOND unreasonable now that the landscape of men's college hockey has changed with the NHL looking more and more to colleges for new players. That wasn't the case 15 years ago.


And yes, I can believe that UCLA fans are worse.

And maybe its not fair to compare UMn to fan bases in places like Boise or Iowa or Kansas or St Cloud where there are far fewer options of what to do with your money.

Can't hardly expect the bandwagoners to latch onto losing teams.

But the diehards should support the players as much as possible, OR, just shut up and stop b1tching if those players don't feel like killing themselves for fans who won't come support them.

It goes both ways. But they made the most important EFFORT of all, they came HERE, not somewhere else. They put on the jersey. After they do that, its OUR turn to cheer them on and hope our cheers inspire them to play as hard as they can.
 

Agree. I support this entire team to the end whatever they may be. Players and coaches have worked incredibly hard to get to this stage but we do have to move past the woe is me. When Pat Richter stepped down after a great run as a business exec to take the UW job he forbid any talk of what we could not be and they decided to build brick by brick with a hard nosed approach, defense first. UW was dead. Football regular attendance of 35, 000, basketball 5000. He went far and wide with recommendations on Alvarez and the focus on defense and a killer offensive line. With Bennett they went with the Bobby Knight, John Wooden and Al Mcguire endorsement whom famously said why look far when the secretariat of builders was in his back yard. If you can build a winner at UWSP, Green Bay you could win anywhere. The key was who he was and the support he got.

Well, as embarrassing as it is to admit, our rivals to the east have done ALOT of things better than we have over the years. Maybe we were spoiled in regards to cbb? Were ok with Monson to get us past the sanctions, but then figured getting Tubby was a great move for the money? But like so many coaches who come in and win their first year with other people's players, its very possible Tubby was sent packing from UK for a reason. Dumb move by UMn. Then Pitino? Honestly, if he was their 7th choice, with so little experience? How can we expect better?

On the football side, Mason was a good hire. He had the offensive line thing and the running game going, but he just somehow knew how, better than almost anyone, how to lose the unlosable games. Michigan, the 2 bowl games that broke NCAA bowl game come back records??? Kill was a great hire, and fans were showing patience with him, he was doing the brick by brick thing, but then his not being able to continue, well, I don't know, now we have Fleck and the jury is still out on him. He seems like a guy who can and hopefully will build things up the right way?


But not when it comes to hockey, we've done right with one exception, Brad Beutow probably shouldn't have been fired or let go? Maybe I'm not remembering something, DUI or NCAA trouble? I think I was just discovering the wonders of dating around that time so probably was distracted. lol But going from Brooks to Beutow to Woog to Lucia, has been great for hockey in Minnesota. If only the NHL had continued to ignore college hockey, then Lucia would have continued to dominate college hockey, taking turns with Hakstol and York and DU's old coach, winning all of the Titles every year.

But now those programs all take turns, taking turns, with the non-blue blood team that has the one great season in their history each year. This year it might be Clarkson or Cornell or SCSU or Mankato? Or hopefully its the Gophers turn to win a title?
 

The team doesn't practice with Coffey and McBreyer, or wasn't when Coffey was still able to play in games, but somehow Pitino's supposed to have the team ready to BEAT B1G competition in games???


I just don't get it. Did ANY of you play sports at all??? I did. I played a lot of sports. And just one player can make a huge difference in a sport like basketball with only 5 guys on the court at a time and only 13 allowed to be on scholarship.

But we are not down 1, or even 2, but more like 3.5. The .5 being the combination of McBreyer's not being even close to 100% and maybe Mason and/or Murphy not being at 100% either?



Whether Pitino deserves it or not, the players DO DESERVE OUR SUPPORT!!!

Absolutely I played sports. And basketball was one of them. I will give you an example. One season we lost our best player in our first conference game of the year after a successful stretch of non-conference games. He was our point guard and made the thing go. Going forward from the outside looking in, we were in trouble. However, our coach demanded hard nosed ball and that we defended and rebounded better than anyone else. No, we didn't win all of our games. We probably went .500 with him out. But I will tell you what, we didn't get blown out, we didn't give up and we were good enough to win a few games we shouldn't. Those wins were on the coach period. Talentwise we weren't better than most teams.

I am not for giving up on your team. You have to realize though that yes, if a team is not winning, then the fans will not come. It happens everywhere, not just at this University. I am not even giving up on Pitino. I do however, get frustrated watching the type of basketball we have seen from this team since Lynch went down. Uninspired ball, blowouts, playing little defense. That is all EFFORT and falls squarely on the coach first and program second. Stick with Pitino, but no defense and minimal effort will never get wins at this place. We don't have 10 - 4 star kids on our roster ever and probably never will.
 

Go Gophers . Your post is crafted from the mind of a winner. I went back to day one of this regime and the defense was putrid, the discipline to take good shots worse. LAST year was good defense and this program can not afford to be a ounce worse than that.
 

I do however, get frustrated watching the type of basketball we have seen from this team since Lynch went down. Uninspired ball, blowouts, playing little defense. That is all EFFORT and falls squarely on the coach first and program second. Stick with Pitino, but no defense and minimal effort will never get wins at this place.

Well, that's great that your coach demanded effort and good defense and that the players gave lots of effort, but that was ONE player and it affected how well you did in the W/L column.


This Gopher team is down THREE players, and one of the remaining starters can't even practice in between games and wears a walking boot.

Guys get out of shape when they are not practicing or playing almost everyday.

So that is 3 of Top 6 out, a 4th is playing hurt and probably gets tired quicker than the others, SO...


he's probably getting fewer minutes and not playing 100% the minutes he is playing.



That leaves you with just Mason and Murphy and a rotation of bench players, some far better than others. And what is up with this Cashman, is he already taking up one of our scholarships?


So that leaves us with what? 9 scholarship players, 2 of whom no want wants to see on the floor, and one that is no where near 100%.


That leaves you with just 6 guys trying to carry the vast majority of the load for this team

Murphy, Mason, IW, Harris, Fitz & Hurt.


Don't you think these guys get tired? And half of you don't think either Fitz or Hurt are worth a damn. IW and Harris are just Freshmen. Murphy probably gets double and triple teamed on a regular basis and defenders know they can push out and pressure Mason, IW and Harris on the perimeter, so of course they are not going to be taking only good shots.



They went 1-4 in 5 games over an 11 day period, 3 of the games were out on the East Coast.

3 of those 4 losses the Gophers were up at half, the one game they were up by 10 I believe?

And they lost all 3 of those games. The guys got gassed, they wore out. That is not giving up. That is not playing lazy defense, that is being dinged up and tired and frustrated and the home games they are doing this in front of dwindling crowds. Not sure if any of them have time to read these boards, but if they did they'd be reading all of the fans b1tching about how they are not playing hard??? EXCUSE ME???


Uninspired ball? What's supposed to be inspiring them? The Fans? They don't show up. The Coach? He's fearing for his job, I doubt he's mailing it in.

Blowouts? Like I said, they get tired and wore out and the other team with fresh legs to send in and better talent, WAY better talent out on the floor sometimes, just is able to run away with it at the end.


I just don't understand how you people can't see these things???
 


So regardless of your opinion of the current coach, they say every AD should have a short list. Who should be on Coyle's?

My list:

Long Shots:
Mike Brey-Notre Dame
Jamie Dixon-TCU (maybe not a total long shot)
Chris Mack-Xavier
Mick Cronin-Cincy
Frank Martin-SC (plus he's shady and involved in the scandal)
Brad Brownell-Clemson


Realistic (to varying degrees):
Eric Musselman-Nevada
Tad Boyle-Colorado
Tim Miles-Nebraska


Chris Beard-Texas Tech
Kevin Willard-Seton Hall
Mark Fox-UGa

Kevin Ollie-UConn (?)
Dan Hurley-Rhode Island
Jim Christian-BC
Leon Rice-Boise State
Nate Oats-Buffalo
Fran Dunphy-Temple (?)
Chris Mooney-Richmond

Others:

Rick Barnes-Tennessee
Ben Howland-Miss. St.
Tubby Smith-Memphis (I kid)

We practically have little to zero percent chance of landing anybody on the top 3 lists. In the first list, Brey, Mack and Cronin are all at better jobs. Dixon isn't leaving TCU after 2 seasons. Martin isn't leaving So. Carolina for a job like Minnesota which would be a lateral move at best. Brownell is the same situation as Martin. In the 2nd list, Mussleman is going to leave for a job better than Minnesota. In the next list Beard is at his dream job, Williard won't leave Seton Hall for Minnesota and Fox isn't leaving UGA for Minnesota. Your others list isn't happening either.

Ollie and Mooney might get fired. Hurley turned down better jobs I'm sure, Christian is 2 years removed from going winless in ACC play, Dunphy is almost 70. Out of that list the only realistic options are Rice and Oats. Rice is a west coast guy, so that's unlikely, which leaves Oats.
 

We need to slim down the expectation level if we do get rid of Pitino. Our last 3 coaches came from Gonzaga(unknown at the time) with just 2 years of coaching experience, a guy that was getting run out at Kentucky, and a guy that had one above average season at FIU.
 

More realistic guys IMO:

John Becker(Vermont)
Joe Dooley(FGCU)
Scott Nagy(Wright State)
Brian Wardle(Bradley)
Steve Forbes(ETSU)

If not someone of that ilk, but somebody out of the booth.
 

More realistic guys IMO:

John Becker(Vermont)
Joe Dooley(FGCU)
Scott Nagy(Wright State)
Brian Wardle(Bradley)
Steve Forbes(ETSU)

If not someone of that ilk, but somebody out of the booth.

So we went down to our 7th option to get Pitino and probably skipped over several that we simply knew wouldn't even consider the job, and 1 year removed from his winning B1G Coach of the Year, after a year riddled with tons of injuries/suspensions, we are going to fire this guy and skip over 20+ of the top guys to go after guy just receiving votes basically???

Wow.
 



So we went down to our 7th option to get Pitino and probably skipped over several that we simply knew wouldn't even consider the job, and 1 year removed from his winning B1G Coach of the Year, after a year riddled with tons of injuries/suspensions, we are going to fire this guy and skip over 20+ of the top guys to go after guy just receiving votes basically???

Wow.

Sure we can go after better candidates, but we aren't going to get any of them, and this is only if we fire Pitino, which I don't think we'll do. I'd be curious to see your list of realistic candidates?
 

Sure we can go after better candidates, but we aren't going to get any of them, and this is only if we fire Pitino, which I don't think we'll do. I'd be curious to see your list of realistic candidates?

Niko Medved. Only guy I know of that's done pretty well, who might be willing to come here, because its home, his alma mater, and a definite step up from his current job.

Otherwise your list is pretty realistic, most of those are stepping stone jobs like Medved's so the U would be a step up for sure. I'll admit to not knowing how good of candidates those guys are, though. And are those guys going to be able to recruit as well as Pitino has? I can't say Medved would for sure? It's one thing to out recruit and beat the teams in your below mid-major conference, its another to out recruit the likes of IU and MSU and OSU, etc..
 

We practically have little to zero percent chance of landing anybody on the top 3 lists. In the first list, Brey, Mack and Cronin are all at better jobs. Dixon isn't leaving TCU after 2 seasons. Martin isn't leaving So. Carolina for a job like Minnesota which would be a lateral move at best. Brownell is the same situation as Martin. In the 2nd list, Mussleman is going to leave for a job better than Minnesota. In the next list Beard is at his dream job, Williard won't leave Seton Hall for Minnesota and Fox isn't leaving UGA for Minnesota. Your others list isn't happening either.

Ollie and Mooney might get fired. Hurley turned down better jobs I'm sure, Christian is 2 years removed from going winless in ACC play, Dunphy is almost 70. Out of that list the only realistic options are Rice and Oats. Rice is a west coast guy, so that's unlikely, which leaves Oats.

The "we suck, we won't get anyone good anyway" trope is tired. Now that we have real facilities this is a decent job in a good conference. It's the only school in a state of 5 million people that produces a decent amount of talent. We have good fan support, etc.

The long shots are just that. But the idea that this is such a terrible job that a coach at Georgia or Seton Hall or Colorado would never consider it or that every hot mid-major "will get a better offer" is silly. In any one of those cases, you might be right, but as a blanket statement it's false.
 

We need to slim down the expectation level if we do get rid of Pitino. Our last 3 coaches came from Gonzaga(unknown at the time) with just 2 years of coaching experience, a guy that was getting run out at Kentucky, and a guy that had one above average season at FIU.

Tubby could have gone other places. Gonzaga wasn't what it is now, but Monson was at the same level of Andy Enfield at FGCU.
 



Niko Medved. Only guy I know of that's done pretty well, who might be willing to come here, because its home, his alma mater, and a definite step up from his current job.

Otherwise your list is pretty realistic, most of those are stepping stone jobs like Medved's so the U would be a step up for sure. I'll admit to not knowing how good of candidates those guys are, though. And are those guys going to be able to recruit as well as Pitino has? I can't say Medved would for sure? It's one thing to out recruit and beat the teams in your below mid-major conference, its another to out recruit the likes of IU and MSU and OSU, etc..

Forbes and Dooley spent a long time at P5 schools recruiting at a high level at Tennessee and Kansas respectively. Those guys would probably be the best recruiters out of the bunch IMO. Although Nagy did get Mike Daum to South Dakota State, so that is a really nice get in terms of evaluating a prospect. Wardle is familiar with the midwest having been head coaches at both schools he's been at.
 

The "we suck, we won't get anyone good anyway" trope is tired. Now that we have real facilities this is a decent job in a good conference. It's the only school in a state of 5 million people that produces a decent amount of talent. We have good fan support, etc.

The long shots are just that. But the idea that this is such a terrible job that a coach at Georgia or Seton Hall or Colorado would never consider it or that every hot mid-major "will get a better offer" is silly. In any one of those cases, you might be right, but as a blanket statement it's false.

Obviously the facility upgrades are huge to the program. But we simply aren't better programs than ND, Xavier or Cincy. And a guy like Williard simply isn't leaving Seton Hall for Minnesota. Georgia and Colorado are probably similar in nature to us, so it would be a lateral move at best, and certainly not an upgrade IMO. We'll always be behind schools like Michigan State, Michigan, Indiana, Ohio State, Purdue, Maryland and Wisconsin in terms of prestige, so being a bottom half of the conference job is never a good selling point. And I didn't even name a school like Illinois that obviously has better recent history than we do. Mussleman would be a huge hire, because I'd think he'd be the perfect fit, of blending in transfers and high school recruits much like Fred Hoiberg. But let's just say hypothetically Louisville opens up, you think he's going to pick us over Louisville? There's just no way that's being realistic.
 

Tubby could have gone other places. Gonzaga wasn't what it is now, but Monson was at the same level of Andy Enfield at FGCU.

That's my point, we're going to have to reach for low major head coaches, or guys that could potentially be fired from another(better) P5 program. Or somebody from TV.
 

Tubby could have gone other places. Gonzaga wasn't what it is now, but Monson was at the same level of Andy Enfield at FGCU.

Tubby and Monson are examples of how even getting a guy that many have high expectations of, doesn't guarantee they'll succeed, and I hate to say it, but part of that could be because they CAME HERE???


Back then at least, we had crappy facilities and a history of a University and state that was not exactly what you would call supportive. The state is mostly bandwagoners that latch onto whatever pro sport is doing well that year. And the majority of Diehard Gopher fans are divided up between the many successful programs, preferring to go to women's VB games or women's bb games than to fb or mens bb games. We also have a healthy contingent of Diehard Gopher fans that concentrate their fandom on one or both hockey teams. And even a portion are die hard Wrestling fans. So yes, we are the only school in a state of 5 million with a Div 1 mens cbb team. But those 5 million people have A LOT more options than in places with fewer people.

And as for recruits, how many potentially good basketball players choose hockey instead? Other states may have to deal with great athletes picking football over bb, but Minnesota athletes are picking BOTH hockey and football over bb.

And no one can deny, especially on a day like today, that's the weather up here isn't a factor. It would be for me. If I didn't otherwise love Minnesota, I'd choose a school in a warmer climate over Minnesota, too, if other factors didn't already sway me already, that is.


Between fb and bb, Minnesota hasn't had a lot of luck when it comes to upgrading coaches.


Btw, whoever brought up the kissing frogs to find a Prince analogy? You realize how many frogs there are in the world and how many literal Princes there? right? :) Millions to 1.
 

Obviously the facility upgrades are huge to the program. But we simply aren't better programs than ND, Xavier or Cincy. And a guy like Williard simply isn't leaving Seton Hall for Minnesota. Georgia and Colorado are probably similar in nature to us, so it would be a lateral move at best, and certainly not an upgrade IMO. We'll always be behind schools like Michigan State, Michigan, Indiana, Ohio State, Purdue, Maryland and Wisconsin in terms of prestige, so being a bottom half of the conference job is never a good selling point. And I didn't even name a school like Illinois that obviously has better recent history than we do. Mussleman would be a huge hire, because I'd think he'd be the perfect fit, of blending in transfers and high school recruits much like Fred Hoiberg. But let's just say hypothetically Louisville opens up, you think he's going to pick us over Louisville? There's just no way that's being realistic.


It should also be noted that places like Seton Hall, Xavier, Cincy, Indiana, Louisville, Gonzaga, etc., Basketball is all they got or what they have proven they love more than anything else.

Can't say that here at Minnesota. We have hockey & football(arguable unfortunately), women's BB, wrestling, and that's not even mentioning the biggest thing we have a lot or most of those don't have, PRO SPORTS! Arts and Culture possibly, too?


And just because we are the only Div 1 team in the state doesn't mean we "own" the state as a whole. NDSU and SDSU have looked pretty good in cbb at times, Wisconsin loves to steal our players, as well as the Dukes and Stanfords of the world. And that's just the players, when it comes to the fan base, out in outstate Minnesota, there is just not a ton of love for the Gophers. When I see someone in my town wearing a Gopher sweatshirt, I say something and more often than not, they are a parent of a Gopher player. The vast majority out in these parts are more willing to root for NDSU football, SDSU bb, and UND or SCSU hockey. And there are a lot of Minnesotans who choose to give their fandom to smaller schools, EVEN IN cbb, like Mankato or UMD, or St Johns, etc..

Minnesotans love their sports and sports teams, and they also love their local teams, and their PRO teams, so the U of Mn's influence over the STATE as a whole, is marginal at best. I'd even say its unimpressive. Underwhelming.
 

That's my point, we're going to have to reach for low major head coaches, or guys that could potentially be fired from another(better) P5 program. Or somebody from TV.

The point is Monson and Tubby both could have had one of those "better jobs" you're talking about, but they chose MN. And we're in a much better spot now than we were in 99 or 07 both in facilities and talent. And while I would argue this is a better job than UGa, Colorado or Nebraska, even if they're lateral moves doesn't make them long shots. Fox and Boyle have had decent but not great success and might want to get out while the getting is still good.
 

It should also be noted that places like Seton Hall, Xavier, Cincy, Indiana, Louisville, Gonzaga, etc., Basketball is all they got or what they have proven they love more than anything else.

Can't say that here at Minnesota. We have hockey & football(arguable unfortunately), women's BB, wrestling, and that's not even mentioning the biggest thing we have a lot or most of those don't have, PRO SPORTS! Arts and Culture possibly, too?


And just because we are the only Div 1 team in the state doesn't mean we "own" the state as a whole. NDSU and SDSU have looked pretty good in cbb at times, Wisconsin loves to steal our players, as well as the Dukes and Stanfords of the world. And that's just the players, when it comes to the fan base, out in outstate Minnesota, there is just not a ton of love for the Gophers. When I see someone in my town wearing a Gopher sweatshirt, I say something and more often than not, they are a parent of a Gopher player. The vast majority out in these parts are more willing to root for NDSU football, SDSU bb, and UND or SCSU hockey. And there are a lot of Minnesotans who choose to give their fandom to smaller schools, EVEN IN cbb, like Mankato or UMD, or St Johns, etc..

Minnesotans love their sports and sports teams, and they also love their local teams, and their PRO teams, so the U of Mn's influence over the STATE as a whole, is marginal at best. I'd even say its unimpressive. Underwhelming.

What about all those empty seats at Hockey, Football can not even fill 45,000. Do you think there are any coaches out there that would win big here ? Bo Ryan would have won huge here. We have never known how to find that great coach. I guess your content if we can get over .500 every few years and make the tourney or win a tourney game every 20 years. Accepting mediocrity invites it. I demand more. Many high end potential donors will open the wallet if they are blown away by a prospect. Other schools have done it. Why not here ? You hate it when i bring up Tony Bennett but he won right away at Washington State , that job is miles tougher than here. Basketball execs knew he would win. UVA sucked. They never had 4 years in a row over .500 in their history and now have 7 of those seasons in a row. Those clowns at the U would not even look at him in 2008 when he could still have been had because they did not know who to talk too and what to look for. They were not even smart enough all the to Tubby to know that he just wanted a soft landing. Then Teague goes Villa why those in the know were laughing ! All that said , i will continue my support of this coach and this program and the other three i support. But i will not do it being ok with poor defense, poor character and poor results. I could not have built my businesses with such standards. In my mids 70's now and have seen this garbage too long. FYI, they did go about hiring Mr. Fleck the right way. Behind the scenes they got great endorsements from titans of the industry.
 

What about all those empty seats at Hockey, Football can not even fill 45,000. Do you think there are any coaches out there that would win big here ? Bo Ryan would have won huge here. We have never known how to find that great coach. I guess your content if we can get over .500 every few years and make the tourney or win a tourney game every 20 years. Accepting mediocrity invites it. I demand more. Many high end potential donors will open the wallet if they are blown away by a prospect. Other schools have done it. Why not here ? You hate it when i bring up Tony Bennett but he won right away at Washington State , that job is miles tougher than here. Basketball execs knew he would win. UVA sucked. They never had 4 years in a row over .500 in their history and now have 7 of those seasons in a row. Those clowns at the U would not even look at him in 2008 when he could still have been had because they did not know who to talk too and what to look for. They were not even smart enough all the to Tubby to know that he just wanted a soft landing. Then Teague goes Villa why those in the know were laughing ! All that said , i will continue my support of this coach and this program and the other three i support. But i will not do it being ok with poor defense, poor character and poor results. I could not have built my businesses with such standards. In my mids 70's now and have seen this garbage too long. FYI, they did go about hiring Mr. Fleck the right way. Behind the scenes they got great endorsements from titans of the industry.

I've NEVER said that I was ok with mediocrity.

As for empty seats for hockey and football?? Ever heard of the Wild or the Vikings?

Musselman could probably do very well here, just not sure we can get him.

I think Flip Saunders would have done better out of the gate than Pitino. RIP Flip, btw.

oh, and since we DID hire him, I also think that Pitino CAN do well here. Better than any coach in Gopher history if given the chance. Not guaranteeing it, and if next year is a flop of a season like this one, then boot him.

But he had the program trending upward, in every regard, recruiting, even defense, even character of players.



And you haven't responded to my question about the first 3 seasons of Clem's tenure here. Up to the end of conference play in year 3.
 

I've NEVER said that I was ok with mediocrity.

As for empty seats for hockey and football?? Ever heard of the Wild or the Vikings?

Musselman could probably do very well here, just not sure we can get him.

I think Flip Saunders would have done better out of the gate than Pitino. RIP Flip, btw.

oh, and since we DID hire him, I also think that Pitino CAN do well here. Better than any coach in Gopher history if given the chance. Not guaranteeing it, and if next year is a flop of a season like this one, then boot him.

But he had the program trending upward, in every regard, recruiting, even defense, even character of players.



And you haven't responded to my question about the first 3 seasons of Clem's tenure here. Up to the end of conference play in year 3.

Yes i did. Clem took a much more difficult job and oh by the way cheated to win and cut corners on integrity.
 

Yes i did. Clem took a much more difficult job and oh by the way cheated to win and cut corners on integrity.

Was it really that much more difficult? Tubby didn't leave much behind for Pitino to start with, and hence why we had to wait for HIS recruits to come in and have time to do something.


Clem's guys showed up his first season, and so the main group's THIRD YEAR, was when they finally stopped losing.

Pitino's guys didn't show up under his 2nd season, and so his main group's THIRD YEAR, would have been Pitino's FOURTH. And what do you know, THAT is the year HIS guys stopped losing.


Both coaches, both guys initial recruiting classes, needed to their 3rd season to start coming together and winning vs losing a lot. And Clem's main group's 4th season was his best. And then they all graduated and he dropped back down the conf rankings far enough that well, yes, instead of taking the time to build the program slowly over a long period of time, and believe me, Minnesota fans would not have been patient with him, he ruined it for himself having too much success with that first group of guys in a sense. Difference between him and Pitino, is that Pitino didn't bring in a huge group all at the same time that would all then leave at the same time and leave him with not much of anything. No, instead Pitino brought in a couple guys the next year and then the next and then the next.

Does he get an A in class/roster management? No, but Clem could get an F or maybe a D minus for how well he managed this first 6-7 years here.

He got frustrated with the lack of local talent and started cheating, yes. That is on Clem. Doesn't change the fact it took him around 7-8 years before he started doing that.



Pitino hopefully won't feel the need to do that.


And Clem resorted to bringing in more questionable characters later on in his time here. Pitino only did that the first 2-3 years, and outside of Lynch, it really was only his first 1 or 2 years basically.

And I'm still waiting for you to show me evidence that he should have known better regarding those players from the first 2-3 seasons.


Seriously. Are you using information garnered AFTER the fact to judge Pitino for bringing those guys in here, or was there any evidence or signs that those guys were or could be trouble before Pitino recruited them???
 

Was it really that much more difficult? Tubby didn't leave much behind for Pitino to start with, and hence why we had to wait for HIS recruits to come in and have time to do something.


Clem's guys showed up his first season, and so the main group's THIRD YEAR, was when they finally stopped losing.

Pitino's guys didn't show up under his 2nd season, and so his main group's THIRD YEAR, would have been Pitino's FOURTH. And what do you know, THAT is the year HIS guys stopped losing.


Both coaches, both guys initial recruiting classes, needed to their 3rd season to start coming together and winning vs losing a lot. And Clem's main group's 4th season was his best. And then they all graduated and he dropped back down the conf rankings far enough that well, yes, instead of taking the time to build the program slowly over a long period of time, and believe me, Minnesota fans would not have been patient with him, he ruined it for himself having too much success with that first group of guys in a sense. Difference between him and Pitino, is that Pitino didn't bring in a huge group all at the same time that would all then leave at the same time and leave him with not much of anything. No, instead Pitino brought in a couple guys the next year and then the next and then the next.

Does he get an A in class/roster management? No, but Clem could get an F or maybe a D minus for how well he managed this first 6-7 years here.

He got frustrated with the lack of local talent and started cheating, yes. That is on Clem. Doesn't change the fact it took him around 7-8 years before he started doing that.



Pitino hopefully won't feel the need to do that.


And Clem resorted to bringing in more questionable characters later on in his time here. Pitino only did that the first 2-3 years, and outside of Lynch, it really was only his first 1 or 2 years basically.

And I'm still waiting for you to show me evidence that he should have known better regarding those players from the first 2-3 seasons.


Seriously. Are you using information garnered AFTER the fact to judge Pitino for bringing those guys in here, or was there any evidence or signs that those guys were or could be trouble before Pitino recruited them???

Everyone knew about the troubles of the local guard, the west coast kid and the one who became a criminal after several issues in high school. No one but you would compare what shape the program was in when Clem got the job to when RP did. And of course you will not address not establish even a shred of a identity. We can just agree to never agree. I will continue keep my seats at 4 schools with full support but saddened by this terrible athletic department in general but more specifically 50 years of either tarnished hoops or below average basketball. That list of seasonal big ten won loss records in that 50 years is truly dreadful.
 

OK, for all of you who seem to think that "OMG, its year 5 already, OMG, how could Pitino not be doing better? All of our previous coaches DID SO MUCH BETTER IN CONF, blah, blah, blah"????


First 4 years comparison

Clem = 26 conf wins. Followed that up with a WHOPPING FIVE wins in his 5th season.

Monson = 26 conf wins. Followed that up with a WHOPPING THREE wins in his 5th season.

Tubby = 34 conf wins. Followed that up with a WHOPPING SIX wins in his 5th season.

Pitino = 27 conf wins. Followed that up with what should have been one of our best seasons in a while.


5th season comparison???

5 for Clem
3 for Monson
6 for Tubby
? for Pitino


Now did any of those previous 3 coaches have such a hobbled team? 3 guys completely missing, 1 not allowed to practice, others missing games here or there?



And for all of you Tubby Lovers out there, Tubby was FOURTEEN games under .500 his last 3 seasons.
 

I was all for replacing Tubby. Change is all about bringing big improvement. All those you mentioned have been failures. They are all comparable. Not what to aim for. Besides you must simply count every year otherwise lets say you throw out the first one where every coach did not even have their guys. No matter how you add it up it has been and is brutal failure. Show it to anyone from a power 5 conference to ask where does it stack up in conference and it is a losers ledger.
 

Everyone knew about the troubles of the local guard, the west coast kid and the one who became a criminal after several issues in high school. No one but you would compare what shape the program was in when Clem got the job to when RP did. And of course you will not address not establish even a shred of a identity. We can just agree to never agree. I will continue keep my seats at 4 schools with full support but saddened by this terrible athletic department in general but more specifically 50 years of either tarnished hoops or below average basketball. That list of seasonal big ten won loss records in that 50 years is truly dreadful.

You don't even remember their names, and I'm just supposed to believe you?

Or was it SO LONG AGO that you just can't remember?


Tubby went 14 games below .500 in conference the 3 seasons prior to Pitino showing up. He got fired for a reason.



A "shred of identity"


I'm not ducking this question, just don't think I'm the guy to be answering that question. It's basically not something I look for I guess? Had THIS season not gone to the sh1tter, I'd probably be better able to answer you.


We had a pretty good defense last year, and last year was when the guys Pitino brought in his first 3 classes finally had enough of the combination of experience and/or talent, to start doing something.



You claim Clem's teams of 87 and 88 played great defense? Did they? Do you have the stats and def rankings to prove that? Because I have the 6-30 conf record that makes me question the validity of your statement. Or the relevance.
 

I was all for replacing Tubby. Change is all about bringing big improvement. All those you mentioned have been failures. They are all comparable. Not what to aim for. Besides you must simply count every year otherwise lets say you throw out the first one where every coach did not even have their guys. No matter how you add it up it has been and is brutal failure. Show it to anyone from a power 5 conference to ask where does it stack up in conference and it is a losers ledger.


But WHY did those other coaches have such dismal 5th seasons???


Pitino's 5th season being dismal is because of losing 1/4 to 1/3rd of his players, and that 1/4 to 1/3rd is completely taken out of the top 50% of the lineup, too.


Clem's 5th season was dismal because he stacked the class of 90 with a huge # of players.


Can't remember why Monson's or Tubby's 5th seasons were so dismal, but all I am doing is saying, here at Minnesota, apparently that is a tradition that even good recruiting can't seem to do anything about.
 

Remember them ? Of course i do. Anyone who scouted high school players and AAU knew. You know their names it is not that long ago but no need to throw them out there. Do your own research , pretty easy. Same on defensive stats, not your secretary. Said i was in favor of Tubby being gone. He was 14 under .500 in conference his last 3 ? Richard is in danger of being even worse than that his last 3 here in a few weeks. Thanks for letting me know that you do not even look for a identity in a program a coach tries to build. Wow.
 

But WHY did those other coaches have such dismal 5th seasons???


Pitino's 5th season being dismal is because of losing 1/4 to 1/3rd of his players, and that 1/4 to 1/3rd is completely taken out of the top 50% of the lineup, too.


Clem's 5th season was dismal because he stacked the class of 90 with a huge # of players.


Can't remember why Monson's or Tubby's 5th seasons were so dismal, but all I am doing is saying, here at Minnesota, apparently that is a tradition that even good recruiting can't seem to do anything about.

Just good recruiting can win huge with great coaching and there in lies the problem.
 




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