Does St. Johns, St. Thomas, and NDSU / SDSU hurt the Gophers?

Dano564

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Of course we are the only division 1, FBS school, but these other schools compete nationally at their level.
Does their success hurt us when it comes to getting additional walk ons, or is this just a bad excuse?

Do players get similar scholarships to play at these schools (which would make more financial sense than walking on at the U)?
 

Of course we are the only division 1, FBS school, but these other schools compete nationally at their level.
Does their success hurt us when it comes to getting additional walk ons, or is this just a bad excuse?

Do players get similar scholarships to play at these schools (which would make more financial sense than walking on at the U)?

Realistically none of the players at the fore mentioned universities could play for the Gophers. Yes, I know about NFL QB from NDSU. Even a blind sow finds an acorn.
 

You can reasonably conclude that potential walk-ons who chose to go FCS or D2 route hurt 95% of FBS programs if they are good enough to earn a scholarship there. I don't believe that players at the D3 schools affect walk-ons significantly as they are not good enough to crack an FBS roster.
 

I would argue that a good gophers team helps those schools. Because it means the second tier players end up at the dakotas or backups transfer to St. Thomas and St. John’s.

I would argue a bad gophers team offers scholarships to Minnesota players who should be great players at the FCS level rather than average players at the FBS level.
 

No chance. Are there a few players that are missed sure. Those programs do not at all hurt the gophers
 



I think it’s a bit ridiculous to say that NDSU & SDSU don’t have guys that could play at Minnesota this year. Even though that doesn’t necessarily mean we missed on them out of high school as you just can’t always project how players develop and NDSU & SDSU do a good job with player development and many of these guys have the opportunity to play earlier at these schools than they likely would have in the Big Ten. But the Gophers would be significantly better if the following players were added to our roster as all of these players are at least All-Conference level players in the Missouri Valley & several will have opportunity to get into an NFL camp at some point.

NDSU
Nick DeLuca
Easton Stick
Tre Dempsey
Robbie Grimsley
RJ Urzendowski
Bruce Anderson
Lance Dunn
Nate Tanguay

SDSU
Jake Wieneke
Taryn Christion
Dallas Goedert

I’m sure there are other linemen and other position players that would be able to be solid contributors as well. Overall though I think the Gophers get the pick of most local players that they want so I don’t think Minnesota is hurt a lot by these schools. If anything, I’d say that the local FCS schools benefit more from only having one FBS school in Minnesota than the Gophers are hurt by their success.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

This only matters if the Gophers compete and lose on the same players. This rarely to never happens. That said, NDSU is clearly doing a good job of identifying talent. If I was PJ, I would monitor their recruiting and throw offers at lots of their recruits.
 

The Gophers would maybe get to .500 in the Mo Valley conference. Maybe. They not only lose to NDSU, but SDSU as well. This is a BAD Big10 team that on rare occasion rises to “ok” and it’s been that way for decades. NDSU has handled them decisevely here (they’d NEVER schedule them in Fargo). The QB’s have been better for at least 10 years (maybe longer). All you have to do is watch to know this . . . Of course it hurts the U. People have been watching bad to mediocre football so long here they can’t even see the obvious. Btw, the comment about more or less NDSU getting lucky with one recent NFL player is waaaay off base. There have been a number of NFL players from NDSU that could have played for the Gophers instead - but the program is bad. Maybe the question is more “Do the Gophers hurt themselves and players go elsewhere?” That’s more accurate. If one is watching football that involves giving up record yards on defense and similar blunders week after week - AND convinces oneself a coach sprinting around and making up nonsensical excuses and acronyms is a replacement for substance - then it’s possible one gets to “it doesn’t matter”. Unfortunately, any objective observer would know otherwise. You will once again see how woefully PJ is in over his head again tomorrow at 2:30. At least we will have some new meaningless post game platitudes from him on Monday - those are always entertaining.
 



The gophers generally target 6-8 players in state from the top ten list, then they move on the recruit FL, GA, TX and OH to chase stars. There’s not a lot of head to head recruiting against these FCS schools. Occaisonally MN will chase a late XDSU commit, like Grindorf this past season. If MN recruited down to the top 20 in state, these would then impact the fcs schools.

MNs lack of a winning culture is there greatest hurdle, not these schools. Let’s face it, winning in the B1G is tough.
 

The Gophers would maybe get to .500 in the Mo Valley conference. Maybe. They not only lose to NDSU, but SDSU as well. This is a BAD Big10 team that on rare occasion rises to “ok” and it’s been that way for decades. NDSU has handled them decisevely here (they’d NEVER schedule them in Fargo). The QB’s have been better for at least 10 years (maybe longer). All you have to do is watch to know this . . . Of course it hurts the U. People have been watching bad to mediocre football so long here they can’t even see the obvious. Btw, the comment about more or less NDSU getting lucky with one recent NFL player is waaaay off base. There have been a number of NFL players from NDSU that could have played for the Gophers instead - but the program is bad. Maybe the question is more “Do the Gophers hurt themselves and players go elsewhere?” That’s more accurate. If one is watching football that involves giving up record yards on defense and similar blunders week after week - AND convinces oneself a coach sprinting around and making up nonsensical excuses and acronyms is a replacement for substance - then it’s possible one gets to “it doesn’t matter”. Unfortunately, any objective observer would know otherwise. You will once again see how woefully PJ is in over his head again tomorrow at 2:30. At least we will have some new meaningless post game platitudes from him on Monday - those are always entertaining.

NDSU has beaten some of the worst teams in program history. This year's team is mediocre. They win the Mo Valley Conference outright.....and yes.....beat the Bison. They wouldn't be able to move the ball against our defense.

As for the bolded.......how many players with scholarship offers to MN, who didn't swoop in at the last second, have chosen to go to NDSU. I'll give you a hint. The over under is set at 0.5.
 

The easy answer is that it shouldn't matter.

Minnesota's sphere of influence loops-in a dozen football programs that are among the very best at the level they play at.

If we're ranking the factors that Minnesota has to overcome (both controllable, and outside of MN's ability to control) the existence of these programs is not in the Top 100.
 

I don't think the aforementioned the DII/DIII college football teams affect the Gophers in large part. NDSU/SDSU on the other hand do to a certain extend. It possibly hurts the walk-on program. It also hurts when player who can play for the Gophers chose to be a star at NDSU/SDSU rather than be a fringe player for the Gophers.

Occasionally you hear of a player that could have played D1. There was Devon George who played basketball at Augsburg College who then went on to play for the LA Lakers. I don't think D1 programs "discovered" him.

I can't think or recall DII/DIII football players who could have played D1, but I am certain there are a few.

Some kids are either late bloomers or come from very small towns or programs that do not get attention or have all the athletic facilities for player development that bigger towns or the cities have. The metro area on the other hand is a recruiting hot bed for all the regional colleges in DII, DIII, and D1A.
 



You are right, but NDSU would have beaten a team like Buffalo in the Fargodome by like 3 TD’s or more. The Gophers barely eek out a win at home - which in college FB is essentially a “loss”. Why then, is the U targeting only “6-8 players in the State”? Under this premise, sure NDSU doesn’t hurt the U much - BUT then something is fudamentally wrong here. Very wrong. Btw, this is not about wanting the Gophers to fail. Not at all. it’s about watching, listening, experiencing the same delusional things here and getting the same results. Winning culture is hard for sure, but let’s start with the fact that there are HUGE challenges to getting a good team in a major market metro area. Huge. This is not Fargo, Columbus, Gainsville, Norman, etc. How is this being addressed? By bringing in a guy who, after one really good year (this could be a complete anomoly) starts essentially a 70’s style TV informercial (“folks it slices, it dices, it does it twices!!). Come on. We’ve seen this Dog & Pony show before. How are we addressing the main problem here?!? More of the same. We don’t have the margins here to be drained by ANY school nearby. Period. It does hurt, you can’t get around it.
 

NDSU has beaten some of the worst teams in program history. This year's team is mediocre. They win the Mo Valley Conference outright.....and yes.....beat the Bison. They wouldn't be able to move the ball against our defense.

As for the bolded.......how many players with scholarship offers to MN, who didn't swoop in at the last second, have chosen to go to NDSU. I'll give you a hint. The over under is set at 0.5.

He's doing everything he can to be a troll, so just let him do it. Bet he's pretty surprised that anybody engaged him at all.

http://www.forums.gopherhole.com/boards/member.php?9949-FargoRedd
 

Not at all. Just watching Gopher football. Again this year - tried to be optimistic but have seen it all too many times and at some point you have to be honest about the situation. It’s a bad product being peddled as Elite. Idk, maybe next year and we can try it all over again and hope for the best. Deluding ourselves year after year though, will not help.
 

Well. Maybe we win tomorrow and things start to look up. There’s always hope. That would be the best scenario for everyone.
 

Minnesota, being a Big Ten team, recruits nationally (including in Minnesota, of course).

NDSU and SDSU concentrate on the upper midwest for recruiting. Usually they get the best players in Minnesota and Wisconsin that the Gophers, Badgers, and other P5 teams pass on for various reasons. And they've done quite well with that. That's their niche, and those level of players are very competitive with the rest of the nation at the FCS level. They can offer a maximum of 63 full scholarships to 85 total players.

St John's and St Thomas are great programs at DIII. They don't offer athletic scholarships, but as I understand almost all students (in general) who go there get some type of a scholarship to help with costs.

Mankato, Duluth are great programs at DII. They do offer athletic scholarships, but much more limited. I think it is something like in the 20's. There are also more lax academic requirements to qualify in DII. So in general, these programs clean up the rest of the potential college players after the bigger DI programs are done.


I don't think it hurts the Gophers at all, in terms of walk-ons. They will always get a few talented metro and statewide players who would rather give it a shot at the Big Ten program than go to a NDSU or a DII school.
 


Other than losing a few walkons it’s likely there is no impact. It’s an advantage to the Gophers and the Badgers (and I guess Nebraska) for that matter that they are the only FBS schools in their respective state. Look at Michigan for example, their population is somewhat larger than MN but there are 2 B1G schools and 3 MAC schools in addition to some DII schools. Illinois has 2 B1G and a MAC school along with a few FCS.

It is more an advantage to both the Gophers and the FCS/D2 schools because there is nothing in the middle, they both get their pick of the FCS/MAC level talent.
 

Yes. Facts. They are terrible things for some here . . . You will soon be called a “troll” by someone. They can keep believing it doesn’t hurt the U - and they will continue to get a dose of bad football if things stay status quo. It’s the age we live in - facts don’t matter.
 


I don't think St. Thomas/St. Johns have any impact on the Gophers.

However, I do think the emergence of the FCS schools hurts the Gophers indirectly. Any of those players coming out of HS would have picked a Big 10 offer over their FCS offers. That is not the point that I am trying to make. However, I do think we lose solid walk-on candidates to FCS scholarship offers.

There is a long list of walk-ons/former walk-ons that have helped our program and I think it's harder for us get those players to accept walk-on offers when NDSU types are successful.
 

Yes. Facts. They are terrible things for some here . . . You will soon be called a “troll” by someone. They can keep believing it doesn’t hurt the U - and they will continue to get a dose of bad football if things stay status quo. It’s the age we live in - facts don’t matter.

So you're claiming to be a big Gopher fan and you're just chockfull of facts. Yeah, that's why you're here. :D

- "You will once again see how woefully PJ is in over his head again tomorrow at 2:30. At least we will have some new meaningless post game platitudes from him on Monday - those are always entertaining."

- "It’s amazing so many in MN continually fall for this stuff. Pajamas has a huckster system down only the most gullible can’t see through. It goes like this: 1.) Come up with your own version of meaningless, substantiveless acronyms, definitions and platitudes (e.g. “When we insert HYPPER we are learning not to fail but cannot fail when we know joy and happiness in an elite setting with fine young men who we teach for success, blah blah blah blah blah”). It’s literal word salad garbage, the lowest form of psycho babble, and borders on insulting it’s so idiotic. 2.) Say the nonsense incessantly and act physically hyper (e.g. sprint at the end of Quarters - although I must say - he looks quicker than most of our D-backs so kudos for that) 3.) Repeat illogical lies when the psycho babble doesn’t work so well (e.g. imply we actually get better by being worse, come up with “Year Zero”, etc), and 4.) Use “look over here” gimmicks and diversions to keep the spot light off how bad your team really is . .elpful future scheduling hint for Pajamas: NEVER let them schedule the Bison. Especially in Fargo (which would probably never happen), but even at home is a BAD result. WI by 35 on Saturday - could be worse though."

- NDSU has also beaten the Gophers at home - and K State, Co. State, and Iowa (all on the road) among others in the so-called “majors”. The Gophers would finish .500 in the Mo Valley (maybe). ..

- They don’t schedule NDSU for a reason. The fact is, the U is a bad Big 10 team that occasionally rises to the level of competent and rarely to “decent”, regardless of their “major league’” status. The question is, will PJ with all this clownish rhetoric change that? Not looking promising - but, you have to give the guy four years and hope for the best. Maybe it will work out like Pitino bottoming out and rising to have a very good team. I mean, it WOULD be fun to have a top 15 football team here - so it’s not like it would be great for him to fail. But, PJ’s shtick is setting us up for huge ridicule (once again) if his dog and pony show doesn’t work.

- You are right, but NDSU would have beaten a team like Buffalo in the Fargodome by like 3 TD’s or more. The Gophers barely eek out a win at home - which in college FB is essentially a “loss”..This is not Fargo, Columbus, Gainsville, Norman, etc. How is this being addressed? By bringing in a guy who, after one really good year (this could be a complete anomoly) starts essentially a 70’s style TV informercial (“folks it slices, it dices, it does it twices!!). Come on. We’ve seen this Dog & Pony show before. How are we addressing the main problem here?!? More of the same. We don’t have the margins here to be drained by ANY school nearby. Period. It does hurt, you can’t get around it.
 

All the excuses are exactly that. We played in the Metrodome...some called it a positive, some a negative. Now for 10 years or whatever, we have TCF. We need new facilities...next year we'll have them. The only D1 football school in the state...how can that be an excuse that causes bad teams? There is no magic. It's leadership. I want to believe we have the right guy coaching the team. Unfortunately, after 11 games he eroded my confidence in him rather than increased it. I'm left with my own ya but he built WMU to 13 and 1. I'm just mystified how it happened based on year zero at Minnesota.
There are coaches who can develop players. They don't have to be 4 and 5 star guys. The run down of guys in the NFL had more 2 stars, 3 stars, walkons, than 4 and 5 stars guys. That ain't magic either. A lot of 4 and 5 star guys flame out. Leadership...evaluation skills is one piece. I don't think we lose head to head recruiting battles to those schools too often? We can't have more than 120 guys in the program.
 

I don't think St. Thomas/St. Johns have any impact on the Gophers.

However, I do think the emergence of the FCS schools hurts the Gophers indirectly. Any of those players coming out of HS would have picked a Big 10 offer over their FCS offers. That is not the point that I am trying to make. However, I do think we lose solid walk-on candidates to FCS scholarship offers.

There is a long list of walk-ons/former walk-ons that have helped our program and I think it's harder for us get those players to accept walk-on offers when NDSU types are successful.

Every time we've looked at the list in the past, those guys have been very lacking in any Power 5, or old D1-A offers. Some were looked at the Gophers, maybe other schools as well, but they couldn't get them into school.

F*the Facts might have some reason for dredging-up this hoary old topic. Maybe that's the level of recruits we're gonna see the rest of this year. Hope not.

Maybe he's a secret NDSU fan? Doubtful, but look at the thread... :cool:
 

How could any of these players that went to NDSU have helped us when they wouldn’t have helped our recruiting rankings?
 

You are right, but NDSU would have beaten a team like Buffalo in the Fargodome by like 3 TD’s or more. The Gophers barely eek out a win at home - which in college FB is essentially a “loss”. Why then, is the U targeting only “6-8 players in the State”? Under this premise, sure NDSU doesn’t hurt the U much - BUT then something is fudamentally wrong here. Very wrong. Btw, this is not about wanting the Gophers to fail. Not at all. it’s about watching, listening, experiencing the same delusional things here and getting the same results. Winning culture is hard for sure, but let’s start with the fact that there are HUGE challenges to getting a good team in a major market metro area. Huge. This is not Fargo, Columbus, Gainsville, Norman, etc. How is this being addressed? By bringing in a guy who, after one really good year (this could be a complete anomoly) starts essentially a 70’s style TV informercial (“folks it slices, it dices, it does it twices!!). Come on. We’ve seen this Dog & Pony show before. How are we addressing the main problem here?!? More of the same. We don’t have the margins here to be drained by ANY school nearby. Period. It does hurt, you can’t get around it.

This is an incredible take. We outrecruit NDSU every year based on talent rankings, and yet you are insisting that we take more instate kids that are less talented than the kids we already have? Is this sarcasm? NDSU is a good team and I don't doubt that some years they could have had an 8 win team in the Big Ten, but when have you ever consistently beat solid FBS football teams? Never because you play in FCS where the bottom half of the conference is pretty trash compared to any Big Ten team, and you don't consistently play good competition like a FBS team. I'm sorry but if you are stroking your ego about beating Kansas, Iowa State, and Minnesota when we were an embarrassment of a team, you need to go look at how those teams did. Iowa was a great win a year ago and I will credit you that is great, but don't compare fargo to Columbus, Gainesville, or Norman. You are an FCS squad buddy, and while you are the best of the FCS it doesn't mean you are a better program than even average power 5 schools.
 


And the list of guys who were in-state that went to NDSU and couldn't have played in the Big Ten would be extremely long. The Gophers (just like every other program in America) have missed out on some guys. But that is never not going to happen. Recruiting is guessing. Many times coaches get it right but they'll never be close to 100%.
 

The gophers impact those programs much more than they impact the gophers
 




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