My problem with coaching this season and the Badgers will win by 20+ Saturday

gophers141

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I'll preface everything I am about to say with my continued support for PJ. In my eyes there there were some glaring roster issues left over from Kill/Claeys that handcuffed PJ this season along with continued injuries forcing us to play our whatever # DB and 6, 7 and 8th WRs as starters. Our current WRs give us no chance to win games and make Croft's stat line look much worse than he really played Saturday. So I think it is fari to give PJ 3 full seasons before I start questioning if he can do it.

However...injuries aside there have been some strange decisions on both sides of the ball that limit the teams ability to win games.

1. 3rd and long - it happened Saturday but it has been going on all season. On 3rd and long we call inside zone for 3-5 yards and punt. Unless you have a stellar defense, which we don't, I don't understand that play call at all. If you know you're going to get scored on you either take a deep shot that might get picked or you give Croft some type of RPO call with a TE in the flat to at least give the team a chance to pick up the 1st down. You only get so many possessions in football and to just give the ball away like that with a beat up defense makes no sense to me.

2. CBs cushion - I understand we have been destroyed with the suspensions and then injuries to our CBs this year but when we line up 10 yards off the line of scrimmage we are asking the opposing offense to do 1 of 2 things; a) pull their OL and outnumber us on the edge and then their RB has a full head of steam before 1 of our CBs comes up to try and tackle someone in space or b) they give up an easy slant. Given that we have glorified LBs playing DE right and they are undersized for that position why on earth are they getting zero edge help from the DBs.

Given how we line up on defense Wisconsin will run for 275+ on us Saturday and Hornibrook can pick up a 3rd and long with an out route or slant when he needs to. I'm not saying we should or could've won on Saturday at Northwestern but if the staff is going to coach not to win I'd like a warning so I don't waste hours of my day watching it.
 

I'll preface everything I am about to say with my continued support for PJ. In my eyes there there were some glaring roster issues left over from Kill/Claeys that handcuffed PJ this season along with continued injuries forcing us to play our whatever # DB and 6, 7 and 8th WRs as starters. Our current WRs give us no chance to win games and make Croft's stat line look much worse than he really played Saturday. So I think it is fari to give PJ 3 full seasons before I start questioning if he can do it.

However...injuries aside there have been some strange decisions on both sides of the ball that limit the teams ability to win games.

1. 3rd and long - it happened Saturday but it has been going on all season. On 3rd and long we call inside zone for 3-5 yards and punt. Unless you have a stellar defense, which we don't, I don't understand that play call at all. If you know you're going to get scored on you either take a deep shot that might get picked or you give Croft some type of RPO call with a TE in the flat to at least give the team a chance to pick up the 1st down. You only get so many possessions in football and to just give the ball away like that with a beat up defense makes no sense to me.

2. CBs cushion - I understand we have been destroyed with the suspensions and then injuries to our CBs this year but when we line up 10 yards off the line of scrimmage we are asking the opposing offense to do 1 of 2 things; a) pull their OL and outnumber us on the edge and then their RB has a full head of steam before 1 of our CBs comes up to try and tackle someone in space or b) they give up an easy slant. Given that we have glorified LBs playing DE right and they are undersized for that position why on earth are they getting zero edge help from the DBs.

Given how we line up on defense Wisconsin will run for 275+ on us Saturday and Hornibrook can pick up a 3rd and long with an out route or slant when he needs to. I'm not saying we should or could've won on Saturday at Northwestern but if the staff is going to coach not to win I'd like a warning so I don't waste hours of my day watching it.

You kind of answered both your questions but my take on the two things you mentioned.

1. Teams do this all the time on third and long but especially in a game where the wind is so strong and passing clearly was going to be difficult it makes sense to play it safe in long yardage situations. Can understand not totally agreeing with a play-call but you see teams lay up in long yardage situations on third down all the time in pro and college football.

2. This one is simple. If you play them tight and the receiver runs right past them....Sure if you know it is going to be a running play you want those guys up closer to the line but if the Thorson comes to the line and sees our CB up tight with no safety help over the top what is to stop him from just changing the play and assuming his receiver can beat our backup DB 1 on 1?
 

Throw to the tight end? Other teams have success doing that, but we only try it once every three games or so.
 

This year, we can chuck it up to regime change and everyone involved from the players to the coaches - they are learning.

The players need to buy in, and those that don't probably will transfer. The coaches got a "Welcome To The Big Ten!"

Yup - beat the Badgers and all is forgiven! I know it is a very tall order. But, hey there is a chance no matter how small.
 

This year, we can chuck it up to regime change and everyone involved from the players to the coaches - they are learning.

The players need to buy in, and those that don't probably will transfer. The coaches got a "Welcome To The Big Ten!"

Yup - beat the Badgers and all is forgiven! I know it is a very tall order. But, hey there is a chance no matter how small.

I made the mistake of driving down for that game on Saturday. I did notice something with regards to players buying in. Maybe I am reading into this too much. But I remember early in the year when PJ used to run from one side of the field to the other between the 1st and 2nd and the 3rd and 4th quarters his players would sprint right with him. On Saturday after the first quarter he sprinted while most of the defense did a half jog 10, 15 or 20 yards behind him. To me this shows the players are disinterested in this and possibly not buying in to some of the things PJ is selling. Any other thoughts?
 


This is the first game in a while that I'm not excited to go to. This is going to be a bloodbath. I'll be there with Maroon and Gold on, but I know how it is going to go unfortunately. Booze will help, but a snowstorm would be much appreciated/keeping the score low.
 

I made the mistake of driving down for that game on Saturday. I did notice something with regards to players buying in. Maybe I am reading into this too much. But I remember early in the year when PJ used to run from one side of the field to the other between the 1st and 2nd and the 3rd and 4th quarters his players would sprint right with him. On Saturday after the first quarter he sprinted while most of the defense did a half jog 10, 15 or 20 yards behind him. To me this shows the players are disinterested in this and possibly not buying in to some of the things PJ is selling. Any other thoughts?

Yes....you are reading too much into it.
 

This is the first game in a while that I'm not excited to go to. This is going to be a bloodbath. I'll be there with Maroon and Gold on, but I know how it is going to go unfortunately. Booze will help, but a snowstorm would be much appreciated/keeping the score low.

Same here. I'm going in with such low expectations, but still it's the last chance to see Gopher football this fall. Being there for Senior Day to support the team is good too.
 

I made the mistake of driving down for that game on Saturday. I did notice something with regards to players buying in. Maybe I am reading into this too much. But I remember early in the year when PJ used to run from one side of the field to the other between the 1st and 2nd and the 3rd and 4th quarters his players would sprint right with him. On Saturday after the first quarter he sprinted while most of the defense did a half jog 10, 15 or 20 yards behind him. To me this shows the players are disinterested in this and possibly not buying in to some of the things PJ is selling. Any other thoughts?

That might explain why jNW wasn't intimidated by the Gophers.


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This year, we can chuck it up to regime change and everyone involved from the players to the coaches - they are learning.

The players need to buy in, and those that don't probably will transfer. The coaches got a "Welcome To The Big Ten!"

Yup - beat the Badgers and all is forgiven! I know it is a very tall order. But, hey there is a chance no matter how small.

Ditto all of this.
 

I'll preface everything I am about to say with my continued support for PJ. In my eyes there there were some glaring roster issues left over from Kill/Claeys that handcuffed PJ this season along with continued injuries forcing us to play our whatever # DB and 6, 7 and 8th WRs as starters. Our current WRs give us no chance to win games and make Croft's stat line look much worse than he really played Saturday. So I think it is fari to give PJ 3 full seasons before I start questioning if he can do it.

However...injuries aside there have been some strange decisions on both sides of the ball that limit the teams ability to win games.

1. 3rd and long - it happened Saturday but it has been going on all season. On 3rd and long we call inside zone for 3-5 yards and punt. Unless you have a stellar defense, which we don't, I don't understand that play call at all. If you know you're going to get scored on you either take a deep shot that might get picked or you give Croft some type of RPO call with a TE in the flat to at least give the team a chance to pick up the 1st down. You only get so many possessions in football and to just give the ball away like that with a beat up defense makes no sense to me.

2. CBs cushion - I understand we have been destroyed with the suspensions and then injuries to our CBs this year but when we line up 10 yards off the line of scrimmage we are asking the opposing offense to do 1 of 2 things; a) pull their OL and outnumber us on the edge and then their RB has a full head of steam before 1 of our CBs comes up to try and tackle someone in space or b) they give up an easy slant. Given that we have glorified LBs playing DE right and they are undersized for that position why on earth are they getting zero edge help from the DBs.

Given how we line up on defense Wisconsin will run for 275+ on us Saturday and Hornibrook can pick up a 3rd and long with an out route or slant when he needs to. I'm not saying we should or could've won on Saturday at Northwestern but if the staff is going to coach not to win I'd like a warning so I don't waste hours of my day watching it.
As my friends in Ark. warned me. Defensive CB playing 10 off and the safety 14 off, means that the offense has 11 within 3 yards of the LOS and the defense has 8 at most. And remember the offense knows where the play is going and when the ball will be snapped. 11 against 8, take that odds every time. Sad
 

It's sad that any post that isn't a PJ love fest has to start out with that preface. I don't blame the OP, but it shows how hysterical some people have become.

As to your point.

(1) I don't really blame the staff for this. Our offense has been putrid and our defense has been alright. I don't think dropping back Croft to pass on third and long several times a game is a recipe for any sort of success. It would obviously be nice to avoid those situations, but I can understand why our OC, when faced with that situation, has elected to be conservative.
 

They are conserving their energy for Wisconsin.
 



I made the mistake of driving down for that game on Saturday. I did notice something with regards to players buying in. Maybe I am reading into this too much. But I remember early in the year when PJ used to run from one side of the field to the other between the 1st and 2nd and the 3rd and 4th quarters his players would sprint right with him. On Saturday after the first quarter he sprinted while most of the defense did a half jog 10, 15 or 20 yards behind him. To me this shows the players are disinterested in this and possibly not buying in to some of the things PJ is selling. Any other thoughts?

Give the guy a damn chance will ya...? That's the problem with this program...let's hire a new coach every year. Maybe go for 4 coaches in 4 years...? Whadda think? Geez we have the bitchiest fans around and they that expect to win with recruits that none of the other Big Ten schools wanted. People...it will take years to build a program that will win...longevity.

Would Claeys or the yahoo Kill have done any better...? Highly doubtful.

Just give PJ a chance.
 

Give the guy a damn chance will ya...? That's the problem with this program...let's hire a new coach every year. Maybe go for 4 coaches in 4 years...? Whadda think? Geez we have the bitchiest fans around and they that expect to win with recruits that none of the other Big Ten schools wanted. People...it will take years to build a program that will win...longevity.

Would Claeys or the yahoo Kill have done any better...? Highly doubtful.

Just give PJ a chance.

Yes, they would have done much better this year with this team.
 

Give the guy a damn chance will ya...? That's the problem with this program...let's hire a new coach every year. Maybe go for 4 coaches in 4 years...? Whadda think? Geez we have the bitchiest fans around and they that expect to win with recruits that none of the other Big Ten schools wanted. People...it will take years to build a program that will win...longevity.

Would Claeys or the yahoo Kill have done any better...? Highly doubtful.

Just give PJ a chance.

Pot meet kettle

Kill/Claeys took this program from doormat to mediocre to respectable and they also dramatically improved the academic standing of the team. They did it all with pretty poor admin support and facilities that were lacking.
It's disappointing that PJ has come in and now taken us back to mediocre and from the way he has talked, we will be a dormat next season, because he hasn't figured out how to "coach up" the current players and out scheme the teams we are relatively similar to. He's going to get time to hopefully recruit better and get the program back to being respectable and hopefully he can take us past respectable and get us into constant contender in the West. Nobody here has said PJ needs to go, so we are giving him a chance, but he certainly doesn't get a free pass for what happens on the field this year. They blew a chance to be bowl eligible by not beating either Maryland or Purdue and that shouldn't be acceptable any year.
 

I made the mistake of driving down for that game on Saturday. I did notice something with regards to players buying in. Maybe I am reading into this too much. But I remember early in the year when PJ used to run from one side of the field to the other between the 1st and 2nd and the 3rd and 4th quarters his players would sprint right with him. On Saturday after the first quarter he sprinted while most of the defense did a half jog 10, 15 or 20 yards behind him. To me this shows the players are disinterested in this and possibly not buying in to some of the things PJ is selling. Any other thoughts?

I wish PJ would explain why he does this JR High antic and how it could possibly help with 'culture' in any way...
all it does is take a spent defense and wears them down more to sprint like that and then go back out there...unreal
 

Give the guy a damn chance will ya...? That's the problem with this program...let's hire a new coach every year. Maybe go for 4 coaches in 4 years...? Whadda think? Geez we have the bitchiest fans around and they that expect to win with recruits that none of the other Big Ten schools wanted. People...it will take years to build a program that will win...longevity.

Would Claeys or the yahoo Kill have done any better...? Highly doubtful.

Just give PJ a chance.

Yes, they would have done much better this year with this team.
 


Give the guy a damn chance will ya...? That's the problem with this program...let's hire a new coach every year. Maybe go for 4 coaches in 4 years...? Whadda think? Geez we have the bitchiest fans around and they that expect to win with recruits that none of the other Big Ten schools wanted. People...it will take years to build a program that will win...longevity.

Would Claeys or the yahoo Kill have done any better...? Highly doubtful.

Just give PJ a chance.


I get it and I'm trying to give PJ a chance here. But to quote our good friend Glenny Mason "...you're either getting better or you're getting worse..", and this team over the last month is clearly getting worse. I had no great expectation this year and would welcome losses if the team was competitive and there was some semblance of progress. We got rolled by Northwestern and got rolled by Michigan, both games where the team was not competitive and showed signs of being poorly coached - not just PJ but his entire staff - I mean 39-0 is a strong indicator of how bad this team is right now. It's not about the losses but the seemingly backward steps the team is making in the lack of competitiveness in these losses. Lets get this Wisconsin game over, take in the dock and get the boat out of the water until spring. That's all we can and should do at this stage.
 

I get it and I'm trying to give PJ a chance here. But to quote our good friend Glenny Mason "...you're either getting better or you're getting worse..", and this team over the last month is clearly getting worse. I had no great expectation this year and would welcome losses if the team was competitive and there was some semblance of progress. We got rolled by Northwestern and got rolled by Michigan, both games where the team was not competitive and showed signs of being poorly coached - not just PJ but his entire staff - I mean 39-0 is a strong indicator of how bad this team is right now. It's not about the losses but the seemingly backward steps the team is making in the lack of competitiveness in these losses. Lets get this Wisconsin game over, take in the dock and get the boat out of the water until spring. That's all we can and should do at this stage.

No it isn't. Northwestern has been great against the run all season and is giving up less then 100 yards a game in Big Ten play. We were going to have to throw to beat them and in those conditions with our passing offense and stone-handed receivers we had no shot. It was an ugly loss but let's not go overboard.

Michigan isn't a great team but they are very good and their three losses have all been to ranked teams (MSU, Wis, PSU) so it isn't like we should have marched in there expecting to come out with a victory. Tough to be competitive against good teams when you are a completely one dimensional offense.

The Purdue and Maryland loses were disappointing but I don't think for one second that with our current roster those games were slam dunk wins if we don't make the coaching change. This year has been a step back but let's not try and pretend we have fallen back to the Wacker years where we were the joke of the conference. This was going to be a step back year to some degree no matter who was in charge.

Has been amazing to see the lack of honeymoon that Fleck has gotten from a number of you. As opposed to hiring an unknown like Brewster or a guy that nobody else was after like Kill, we go out and hire one of the hottest names available on the coaching circuit and a lot of you bail part way through his first year.
 


No it isn't. Northwestern has been great against the run all season and is giving up less then 100 yards a game in Big Ten play. We were going to have to throw to beat them and in those conditions with our passing offense and stone-handed receivers we had no shot. It was an ugly loss but let's not go overboard.

Michigan isn't a great team but they are very good and their three losses have all been to ranked teams (MSU, Wis, PSU) so it isn't like we should have marched in there expecting to come out with a victory. Tough to be competitive against good teams when you are a completely one dimensional offense.

The Purdue and Maryland loses were disappointing but I don't think for one second that with our current roster those games were slam dunk wins if we don't make the coaching change. This year has been a step back but let's not try and pretend we have fallen back to the Wacker years where we were the joke of the conference. This was going to be a step back year to some degree no matter who was in charge.

Has been amazing to see the lack of honeymoon that Fleck has gotten from a number of you. As opposed to hiring an unknown like Brewster or a guy that nobody else was after like Kill, we go out and hire one of the hottest names available on the coaching circuit and a lot of you bail part way through his first year.

Your NW comments are pretty spot on. They've been great against the run all year. The weather prevented much passing by either team and we couldn't catch the ball on our pass plays. Then TO's happened and things got away from us.

Michigan I would agree with you for the most part, but part of the problem offensively in that game was play calling. It's tough to be competitive when we don't use the entire playbook. The scoring drive we did, then oddly after that, we did not mix it up as much and had no success. That and our D played its worst game of the year.

Purdue/Maryland were disappointments. I don't feel we played to win either game. We were too conservative in play calling on both sides of the ball and didn't make needed adjustments to take advantage of what those teams were doing defensively nor did we make adjustments to try and take away the successful plays they were running on offense.

To me that is the big disappointment of the year. As you said, PJ was the hot name hire. He has said he doesn't deal in the x's and o's and leaves that up to his coordinators, well I don't believe either coordinator has been an upgrade from what we had last year or the past few. Maybe that will change, but so far that has been my biggest concern.

As far as his honeymoon, he brought that on himself partly with the way he talked. Examples, he eats difficult conversations for breakfast, the players didn't choose me - I chose them, Him stating that in the spring the players that were around fit his systems, then in the fall he's turned to it's year zero and he doesn't have the players to do what he wants, the wins don't matter but the HOW does, etc. Along with that, the AD did him no favors with his asinine press conference and the reasons for the firing of Claeys.

Not bailing, still very much hopeful that PJ can lead us to the promised land, but it has been a very disappointing season up to this point.
 

Lol. I thought this was a joke but you appear to be serious.

He's serious because he's right. This team was built for Claeys' staff. Fleck and his coordinators are a major contributing factor in this dumpster fire. There are a lot of coaches that would have taken this job and delivered superior results to Fleck in his first season.
Fleck is amateurish in every aspect of coaching from play calling to personnel management. He has delivered results in the past, and I hope he delivers results here, but he grades out at F for this year.
 

I wish PJ would explain why he does this JR High antic and how it could possibly help with 'culture' in any way...
all it does is take a spent defense and wears them down more to sprint like that and then go back out there...unreal

Why do people keep saying the sprinting and fists in the air is a JR high antic or JVish? Has anyone ever seen JR high or JV teams doing these things? But I have seen many NFL players raise their fist many times on 4th down so maybe the correct term should be NFLish?
 

No it isn't. Northwestern has been great against the run all season and is giving up less then 100 yards a game in Big Ten play. We were going to have to throw to beat them and in those conditions with our passing offense and stone-handed receivers we had no shot. It was an ugly loss but let's not go overboard.

Prior to our dismantling, many here were chalking up NW as a likely win. Just go back 3-4 weeks to get the true sentiment at the time and no amount of rear view mirror rationalization is going to change that. For the U to extend PJ now, they are simply rewarding mediocrity. To to be fair, I don't PJ will try less hard given the extension so it is a net zero from a motivational standpoint - but I think it sets the precedent that the U Administration will go out of its way to try to prove to themselves that they didn't make a mistake with their coaching change.
 

Prior to our dismantling, many here were chalking up NW as a likely win. Just go back 3-4 weeks to get the true sentiment at the time and no amount of rear view mirror rationalization is going to change that. For the U to extend PJ now, they are simply rewarding mediocrity. To to be fair, I don't PJ will try less hard given the extension so it is a net zero from a motivational standpoint - but I think it sets the precedent that the U Administration will go out of its way to try to prove to themselves that they didn't make a mistake with their coaching change.

No they're not. They can see the forest through the trees, unlike many on here.
 

No they're not. They can see the forest through the trees, unlike many on here.

And you think that based on their stellar track record selecting which coach exactly? You have faith where none is warranted - in fact - I would argue where the proof on the field actively supports the opposite.
 

And you think that based on their stellar track record selecting which coach exactly? You have faith where none is warranted - in fact - I would argue where the proof on the field actively supports the opposite.

Coyle has only been here a little over a year. He's done everything he needs to do to keep Pitino happy after Kaler threw him under the bus - smart. He also essentially hired Fleck before firing Claeys - also smart. People are going to hate him for how he treated Claeys but he's already shown to be one of the more decisive ADs in recent memory.

Time will tell if it pays off. I'm confident it will.
 

And you think that based on their stellar track record selecting which coach exactly? You have faith where none is warranted - in fact - I would argue where the proof on the field actively supports the opposite.

One year in and it’s a failed hire? The contract extension proves the U is only trying to prove to themselves it wasn’t a bad hire?

You might want to give it a little longer then 11 games into the coach’s first year at the school.


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