Fan Base

I'm sure Rutgers is taking markedly better care of him than Minnesota was. :rolleyes:

Maybe he should move to Grand Rapids, MI, where he said the epilepsy specialists did the best for his condition after being at the U Medical Center and Mayo. He could coach Grand Valley State, or if he wants FBS could coach at WMU or MSU within an hour.
 

Great post and dead on. The people bashing Fleck here are ridiculous. He hasn't exactly been dealt a strong hand this season, and they have played close in every game except two, regardless.

He's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. If he continued to play Rhoda, the team may have won a couple of more games, and the debbie-downers would have less to complain about, but complain they still would anyway. If he continued to play Rhoda, half of the fans would piss and moan that he wasn't playing for the future in a non-stellar season. If he burned redshirts, half the people would piss and moan that he was unnecessarily burning redshirts in a lost season. Yet the debbie-downers piss and moan that he retains the redshirts, anyway. Some people just want to piss and moan about everything, because their sad lives would have little enjoyment without it.

The incoming recruiting class isn't burning up the field, and yet it is as strong as anything we've seen since Brewster's first year, in which almost all of those high-end recruits completely flamed out for various reasons, most of them poor behavior. The incoming class also seems to be as strong or better in terms of character as the recruits being obtained by the Kill crew, the players of which were able to make the team respectable. The future is plenty achievable for this program, if the fanbase and the TC media allow it to be.

On an average recruit rating level were about at an 84.4 today, which is ninth in the conference, with a lack of consensus 4 star players. Since the final recruit numbers aren't in it is hard to give a final grade but this class is about 0.1-0.2 rating points higher than recent vintage classes. Top Big Ten teams hover around an average of 90+. Nebraska, for example has only 10 recruits but 5 are high impact 4 star with average rating around 88.

It's way too early to judge Fleck's tenure and there is a small body of work of development at WMU which is encouraging but I'm mildly disappointed he hasn't had any big splash recruits (still has time) although many of these players look very good and others have potential to be very good. Pitino has been recruiting at a fairly high level I believe although I don't really follow basketball closely (I'll tune in) and it's a vastly simpler game for pure talent and athleticism to shine at a young age.

Time will tell if his guys can outperform their ratings, and whether he and his coordinators can develop them and out-scheme the competition. Gotta believe he can get it done.

Regarding the second bolded I'm not sure what this means, or how one would know?
 

So you honestly think Tracy Claeys was going to recruit strong classes that would keep the Gopher football program competitive for years to come?

Those saying we didn't give Claeys the final month to pull a miracle out of a dreadful hat are correct - a miracle could have happened in that last month, and Claeys could have pulled out the #1 class in the nation.

No. The reason I brought up his cheapo contract, short term, low buyout and “interim” label was that it hindered him from the very start of the recruiting year. Was probably mentioned to recruits every time by competing coaches. It was possibly an automatic no go from the start for some recruits. Not to mention I’m sure his recruiting budget was way less. Fleck does not have those same limitations.
 

After 2 mediocre or even terrible seasons? Many, including the guy who built the success of our chief rival. After three seasons? Plenty, including at least one guy currently coaching a successful program in our own conference. The previous admin (Kill/Claeys) wasn't exactly stellar anywhere they went, early on. Nor was our current coach at his last venture; our current basketball coach struggled two of his first three years, and now the bball program is in better shape than it was at any time since ca. 1998.

Nobody's asking for 8-10 years to build something. But only a fool would think that annual revolving coaching doors would be a successful way to run a program. And only a foolish fanbase dead set on bashing a coach in his first season for not having wild success would be a great way to jumpstart the program.

If you're talking about Alvarez he showed steady improvement from inheriting a doormat to a Rose Bowl in year 4. Nobody is calling for Fleck to be fired. I think it is reasonable to see progress after 3-4 years whether in recruiting as with Franklin, or in on field results as in Alvarez. Mason had significant success and splash victories fairly early which earned him a longer leash, for example.
 

On an average recruit rating level were about at an 84.4 today, which is ninth in the conference, with a lack of consensus 4 star players. Since the final recruit numbers aren't in it is hard to give a final grade but this class is about 0.1-0.2 rating points higher than recent vintage classes. Top Big Ten teams hover around an average of 90+. Nebraska, for example has only 10 recruits but 5 are high impact 4 star with average rating around 88.

It's way too early to judge Fleck's tenure and there is a small body of work of development at WMU which is encouraging but I'm mildly disappointed he hasn't had any big splash recruits (still has time) although many of these players look very good and others have potential to be very good. Pitino has been recruiting at a fairly high level I believe although I don't really follow basketball closely (I'll tune in) and it's a vastly simpler game for pure talent and athleticism to shine at a young age.

Time will tell if his guys can outperform their ratings, and whether he and his coordinators can develop them and out-scheme the competition. Gotta believe he can get it done.

Regarding the second bolded I'm not sure what this means, or how one would know?

I agree that I'd like to see some "blue-chippers" (and surprised at the lack of them); and yet, without them the composite ratings remain higher than we've had (the subject of the "bold") since early Brewster. For this year's recruits, we were competing with the likes of other Power 5 conference - in most cases not the very top programs - but higher competition than in the past, and I find that to be a very hopeful sign.
 


Mods - might as well can this thread. Started about the Fan Base, and deteriorated into another steaming pile of dung.

If you like Fleck = Claeys was never going to succeed.

If you don't like Fleck = Claeys was never given a fair chance.

That has almost nothing to do with the fan base. It may be that some fans have left because of Claeys, or it may be that some fans are new because of Fleck. That is almost impossible to know unless you interview every current and former season-ticket holder.

All I know is what I can see and count. I can look at the stands and count how many people are sitting in seats at the games - and whether they are supporting the Gophers or the other team.

Maybe Fleck will turn things around. Maybe the team will contend for a conference title at some point in the future. Maybe fans will flock back to the program and pack the stadium. Maybe Al Franken will french-kiss me without my permission. It's all speculation until it happens.
 



The one recruiting class that Claeys signed was the best one we've had on paper in several years, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Yes, this is true. It’s also true that we had a historically good in-state class that year. Our top 6 rated recruits were Minnesota kids plus Seth Green.
 



Yes, this is true. It’s also true that we had a historically good in-state class that year. Our top 6 rated recruits were Minnesota kids plus Seth Green.

So an asterisk is next to Claeys class. Got it.

:rolleyes:
 

So an asterisk is next to Claeys class. Got it.

:rolleyes:

Does anyone really believe they chose the U because of Claeys? Or that they wouldn’t have come here if Fleck was the coach?
 


No. The reason I brought up his cheapo contract, short term, low buyout and “interim” label was that it hindered him from the very start of the recruiting year. Was probably mentioned to recruits every time by competing coaches. It was possibly an automatic no go from the start for some recruits. Not to mention I’m sure his recruiting budget was way less. Fleck does not have those same limitations.
Claeys knew what the situation was when he accepted the job. If he felt that was an obstacle to success, he could’ve declined the offer.
 



For those of us who work in the real world, I can't imagine taking over leadership of a Department that was performing moderately well, and a year later have them performing at the bottom of the entire company. And in that scenario, there's somehow all this support that you just need a few years to turn the Department around, and get guys who believe in your "culture" in place. Part of leadership is recognizing the strengths you have in your current staff and helping them maximize their potential....not regress under your leadership.
As someone who worked in the “real world”, I haven’t heard of too many situations where 1/4th of your most senior, experienced people leave the organization at the end of the year including your primary performer in a key department, have a complete management staff turnover, and have a complete philosophy change. This isn’t the “real world”.
 

This isn't the "real world" because in college football your competition also experiences similar losses of personnel every year.
 


This isn't the "real world" because in college football your competition also experiences similar losses of personnel every year.
Yeah, so comparing last year to this with a different schedule and a staff that had been in place for several years to programs with different opportunities and issues is apples and oranges.
 

For those of us who work in the real world, I can't imagine taking over leadership of a Department that was performing moderately well, and a year later have them performing at the bottom of the entire company. And in that scenario, there's somehow all this support that you just need a few years to turn the Department around, and get guys who believe in your "culture" in place. Part of leadership is recognizing the strengths you have in your current staff and helping them maximize their potential....not regress under your leadership.

That is a horrible analogy for taking over a football program. The two situations are completely different and it also assumes that the old coaching staff would have done significantly better with the same roster.
 

That is a horrible analogy for taking over a football program. The two situations are completely different and it also assumes that the old coaching staff would have done significantly better with the same roster.

That depends on your perspective:
Fleckster - No chance in he[[ that the previous staff could have done any better
Claeysite - We'd be playing Wisc. for the West title this week.
 

to be fair to PJ Fleck, we still don't have a competent AD.


STrib: Richard Pitino knows Gophers AD Mark Coyle has his back

Richard Pitino often walks into the Bierman Athletic Complex and sends a text message to see what his boss is doing and asks if they can meet up to chat. Their talks are not always about Gophers basketball. They might be about family life or whatever else is on their minds.

In his first year as athletic director, Mark Coyle was there for Pitino, during good times, bad times or when his young coach just needed to talk to someone he could trust.

The man who some thought could fire Pitino has become his biggest supporter and advocate. “If I called him, he called me right back,” Pitino said. “I told him I didn’t need him cheering me on in the stands. I just wanted to have a personal relationship with him. He understands what it takes to win at this level. He just understands we need support.”

With recruiting on the uptick and a new facility opening in January, Pitino can see himself here a long time as the program takes another step forward. But he said the most important thing is having a close relationship with his AD.

“It’s a tough profession we’re in, and he realizes that,” Pitino said. “I think he’s really, really grown. When Mark first got here he was really quiet and reserved. He was just feeling things out, and we all deal with that. He’s just really comfortable with where he’s at. I love it here. But if you don’t have a great AD — all that stuff doesn’t matter. And I got a great AD.”

http://www.startribune.com/richard-p...ack/458528483/
 


I never had any doubts about Richard Pitino. He is a straight shooter. I do about PJ and his over the top rah rah...glad that the snake has his back.
 

LOL

How does the saying go, Spoof?

Seems like proof to me. Someone asked Richard what he thought about his boss and he answered. There would be no reason for Richard not to be 100% open and honest, right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Richard Pitino knows Gophers AD Mark Coyle has his back

Bond between coach Richard Pitino and athletic director Mark Coyle strong.

Richard Pitino often walks into the Bierman Athletic Complex and sends a text message to see what his boss is doing and asks if they can meet up to chat.

Their talks are not always about Gophers basketball. They might be about family life or whatever else is on their minds.

In his first year as athletic director, Mark Coyle was there for Pitino, during good times, bad times or when his young coach just needed to talk to someone he could trust.

The man who some thought could fire Pitino has become his biggest supporter and advocate.

“If I called him, he called me right back,” Pitino said. “I told him I didn’t need him cheering me on in the stands. I just wanted to have a personal relationship with him. He understands what it takes to win at this level. He just understands we need support.”

Coyle heard what was said 18 months ago, when school President Eric Kaler took a slight detour in Coyle’s introductory news conference to say he’s “profoundly disappointed” in the men’s basketball program and that “it simply can’t continue.”

Coyle now also hears Pitino’s voice often, on the other end of the phone, in his office and in the locker room. Sometimes daily during the season.

With the Gophers sliding on a five-game January losing streak last season, Coyle said Pitino called to tell him how much he appreciated his support during a tough time.

“He wasn’t worried,” Coyle said. “He was confident that they would get through it.”

These two, Coyle and Pitino, have gotten through it together. Tough conversations — and, yes, some winning — helped quickly form a tight bond between AD and coach.

Times are even better now, of course, with the Gophers ranked No. 14 and heavily favored Sunday against Western Carolina to extend their 3-0 record.

The chemistry between Coyle and Pitino was born at their first lengthy sit-down before last season. Following Kaler’s very public writhing in May 2016, Coyle listened to Pitino not only explain his program’s problems, but own up to them.

“He had no excuses and was not trying to find somebody else to blame it on,” Coyle said. “That’s the first time I saw that type of involvement. I give Coach Pitino and his staff credit, because they said, ‘Let’s do this.’ It sent a strong message.”

Pitino made many phone calls to Coyle last season, including one on a Sunday afternoon in late January after an ugly home loss to Maryland dropped the Gophers to 3-6 in the Big Ten. From there, they talked daily. Coyle was present in the locker room and at news conferences after games.

“People describe me as steady,” Coyle said. “I try to bring consistency. When we win I try not to get too high, and when we lose I try not to get too low. I think to be with him during that process — he never panicked and the team never panicked. They just kept that business-type approach to the game.”

With that support and trust behind him, Pitino coached the Gophers to the NCAA tournament in March, completing the biggest turnaround in program history and ending hot-seat talk, a constant topic during the 8-23 season in 2016-17. It’s unlikely another season like that one would have been tolerated under Coyle, a leader who has seen big-time basketball success up close.

“At Syracuse, we made it to the Final Four,” Coyle said. “My last year at Kentucky, they went to the Final Four. I promise you I haven’t called one play or made one decision [on the court]. But I’ve seen it done at a high level and understand it.”

Coyle liked what he saw from Pitino last season and gave the coach a contract extension. Now the Gophers have their highest ranking in five years, are considered a Big Ten title contender and have expectations beyond just making the NCAAs.

“Me, President Kaler and Richard can all talk about we want to be an NCAA tournament team every year, but actions define you,” Coyle said. “We need to make sure we can take the steps each day to put ourselves in that position. Being at a Kentucky and being at a Syracuse and seeing the way those programs operate, they are very consistent and intentional with their decisions. I see that with Richard being consistent and intentional on how to build this the right way and make it long term.”

When a new athletic director inherits a coach, there’s always a chance their relationship will take a long time to develop — if it develops. ADs at big schools, like CEOs at big corporations, tend to want to make their own hires for big jobs.

With recruiting on the uptick and a new facility opening in January, Pitino can see himself here a long time as the program takes another step forward. But he said the most important thing is having a close relationship with his AD.

“It’s a tough profession we’re in, and he realizes that,” Pitino said. “I think he’s really, really grown. When Mark first got here he was really quiet and reserved. He was just feeling things out, and we all deal with that. He’s just really comfortable with where he’s at. I love it here. But if you don’t have a great AD — all that stuff doesn’t matter. And I got a great AD.”

http://www.startribune.com/richard-pitino-knows-gophers-ad-mark-coyle-has-his-back/458528483/
 

An asterisk? Am I correct galty?

I'm providing context to the rating. Do you not like that or do you disagree?

Every coach since Mason has done a good job keeping Minnesota players at home. Our overall class rating will tend to be higher depending on the quality of high school talent in MN. This isn't really ground breaking analysis on my part...
 

Richard Pitino knows Gophers AD Mark Coyle has his back

Bond between coach Richard Pitino and athletic director Mark Coyle strong.

Richard Pitino often walks into the Bierman Athletic Complex and sends a text message to see what his boss is doing and asks if they can meet up to chat.

Their talks are not always about Gophers basketball. They might be about family life or whatever else is on their minds.

In his first year as athletic director, Mark Coyle was there for Pitino, during good times, bad times or when his young coach just needed to talk to someone he could trust.

The man who some thought could fire Pitino has become his biggest supporter and advocate.

“If I called him, he called me right back,” Pitino said. “I told him I didn’t need him cheering me on in the stands. I just wanted to have a personal relationship with him. He understands what it takes to win at this level. He just understands we need support.”

Coyle heard what was said 18 months ago, when school President Eric Kaler took a slight detour in Coyle’s introductory news conference to say he’s “profoundly disappointed” in the men’s basketball program and that “it simply can’t continue.”

Coyle now also hears Pitino’s voice often, on the other end of the phone, in his office and in the locker room. Sometimes daily during the season.

With the Gophers sliding on a five-game January losing streak last season, Coyle said Pitino called to tell him how much he appreciated his support during a tough time.

“He wasn’t worried,” Coyle said. “He was confident that they would get through it.”

These two, Coyle and Pitino, have gotten through it together. Tough conversations — and, yes, some winning — helped quickly form a tight bond between AD and coach.

Times are even better now, of course, with the Gophers ranked No. 14 and heavily favored Sunday against Western Carolina to extend their 3-0 record.

The chemistry between Coyle and Pitino was born at their first lengthy sit-down before last season. Following Kaler’s very public writhing in May 2016, Coyle listened to Pitino not only explain his program’s problems, but own up to them.

“He had no excuses and was not trying to find somebody else to blame it on,” Coyle said. “That’s the first time I saw that type of involvement. I give Coach Pitino and his staff credit, because they said, ‘Let’s do this.’ It sent a strong message.”

Pitino made many phone calls to Coyle last season, including one on a Sunday afternoon in late January after an ugly home loss to Maryland dropped the Gophers to 3-6 in the Big Ten. From there, they talked daily. Coyle was present in the locker room and at news conferences after games.

“People describe me as steady,” Coyle said. “I try to bring consistency. When we win I try not to get too high, and when we lose I try not to get too low. I think to be with him during that process — he never panicked and the team never panicked. They just kept that business-type approach to the game.”

With that support and trust behind him, Pitino coached the Gophers to the NCAA tournament in March, completing the biggest turnaround in program history and ending hot-seat talk, a constant topic during the 8-23 season in 2016-17. It’s unlikely another season like that one would have been tolerated under Coyle, a leader who has seen big-time basketball success up close.

“At Syracuse, we made it to the Final Four,” Coyle said. “My last year at Kentucky, they went to the Final Four. I promise you I haven’t called one play or made one decision [on the court]. But I’ve seen it done at a high level and understand it.”

Coyle liked what he saw from Pitino last season and gave the coach a contract extension. Now the Gophers have their highest ranking in five years, are considered a Big Ten title contender and have expectations beyond just making the NCAAs.

“Me, President Kaler and Richard can all talk about we want to be an NCAA tournament team every year, but actions define you,” Coyle said. “We need to make sure we can take the steps each day to put ourselves in that position. Being at a Kentucky and being at a Syracuse and seeing the way those programs operate, they are very consistent and intentional with their decisions. I see that with Richard being consistent and intentional on how to build this the right way and make it long term.”

When a new athletic director inherits a coach, there’s always a chance their relationship will take a long time to develop — if it develops. ADs at big schools, like CEOs at big corporations, tend to want to make their own hires for big jobs.

With recruiting on the uptick and a new facility opening in January, Pitino can see himself here a long time as the program takes another step forward. But he said the most important thing is having a close relationship with his AD.

“It’s a tough profession we’re in, and he realizes that,” Pitino said. “I think he’s really, really grown. When Mark first got here he was really quiet and reserved. He was just feeling things out, and we all deal with that. He’s just really comfortable with where he’s at. I love it here. But if you don’t have a great AD — all that stuff doesn’t matter. And I got a great AD.”

http://www.startribune.com/richard-pitino-knows-gophers-ad-mark-coyle-has-his-back/458528483/

ON THE DEPARTURE OF NORWOOD TEAGUE, THE ATHLETIC DIRECTOR WHO HIRED PITINO:

It certainly was difficult because not only did he bring me in, but he was great to me. Certainly that’s something I was extremely appreciative of. He hired me after one year as a head coach and after not really accomplishing a whole lot. He also believed in me to give me an extension when again I hadn’t accomplished a lot. So he saw something in me and that’s something I’m extremely grateful for.

With that being said moving forward, I think we’re going to pick up right where we left off in terms of fundraising and all those other things. (Interim AD) Beth (Goetz) has done a great job. Certainly you don’t like losing an AD, but he had a great staff that was still intact. I don’t see us missing a beat moving forward.

But for me as a friend of his, that’s always difficult. I hope he’s doing well. He believed in me, and that’s something I won’t forget.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Mason mentioned it in his podcast, and others (the smart ones) have mentioned it here from time to time. We keep on setting ourselves back every time we get a new coach. Unless we were to bring in a legit big time coach that would recruit himself like a Saban, a Meyer, a top five dude, we will probably get roughly the same kind of recruits we always get. Fleck may get a few better players-and I think he willl- but where we fail where our rivals succeed is longevity of the system, or maintaining the same culture. Fleck says it and sounds stupid but it’s 100% true. We need to build a culture and sustain it with little to no coaching movement over the course of ten plus years to begin to compete with Iowa and Wisconsin year in and out. We need to pick a dude and frickin stay with him, this merry go round BS ain’t workin, I don’t understand what folks here get out of bashing the coach, it’s self-destructive, counterproductive, and at the end of the day not fun to read. It’s gotten so bad it’s almost not worth coming here anymore.


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You are 100% correct. This is why, even though I personally dislike Fleck, I want to keep him. People learn over time. There are people in this forum that think that Fleck just doesn't have the players to compete this year. I think that he does, but I think that the has next to no idea what he's doing.
He needs time to learn and develop as a B1G coach. Coyle needs time to learn and develop as a B1G athletic director.
The one that really scares me is people calling for Lucia's head. With down attendance, and 5 in state schools that compete in recruiting, that could be a disastrous move for Gopher hockey.
 

I'm providing context to the rating. Do you not like that or do you disagree?

Every coach since Mason has done a good job keeping Minnesota players at home. Our overall class rating will tend to be higher depending on the quality of high school talent in MN. This isn't really ground breaking analysis on my part...

Context. Certainly.

Yes or no galty? An asterisk or not?

Not groundbreaking.
 

You are 100% correct. This is why, even though I personally dislike Fleck, I want to keep him. People learn over time. There are people in this forum that think that Fleck just doesn't have the players to compete this year. I think that he does, but I think that the has next to no idea what he's doing.
He needs time to learn and develop as a B1G coach. Coyle needs time to learn and develop as a B1G athletic director.
The one that really scares me is people calling for Lucia's head. With down attendance, and 5 in state schools that compete in recruiting, that could be a disastrous move for Gopher hockey.

We need more fans that support and speak positively about the team to neighbors, friends, etc. to get the ball rolling here. When trying to fill a stadium, it’s best if the hardcore fans are all on board, if you can’t even get the die-hards on board, how can we expect to get the casual fan interested?

Sometimes I get the sense the fan base and media up there are as demanding as that of a top program, without all the benefits a fan base and media of a top program.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Keep in mind, the best two wins we had under Kill and Claeys were two wins over Nebraska, both when Nebraska was ranked 22nd and quickly dropped out after the loss.

The program they inherited won their last two games before Kill arrived including beating #24 Iowa.

From a winning perspective, I don't see how in any way Kill compared to Barry Alavarez.

Typically that is what happens when you are ranked 20-25 and you lose to an unranked opponent.

My only problem with the various takes regarding the program is that is is always binary thinking. You have to throw players under the bus, and praise Fleck, etc.

I am okay with Fleck. I am also trusting that the assistant coaches are good teachers. What I don't get is why it is perfectly fine to throw an 18 to 23 year old player under the bus, but not question why our coaching staff couldn't tweak their system, or slowly integrate the new system while working under one that allows the current players to succeed.

If it was just the last few games that the team has under performed, I'd understand and chalk it up to injuries and lack of depth. The problem is this has been going on the whole season. The defense has actually done a fair job of working with the existing talent, as has the special teams, but the offense has regressed significantly.

If I am understanding correctly, the team is on hold till the talent is upgraded. What is the plan if Fleck can't get this "massive" upgrade in talent? Will we switch schemes? do something else?
 




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