Coaching changes are tough.


I disagree with several of these. I'd take 2011's WRs over this year. I'd also take the 2011 OL over this year, or at the very least it is a wash.

QB - I don't think Gray's arm is a huge upgrade over this year, but his legs are significantly better than Croft.
RB - They are far deeper this year, no question. But Bennett was not a bad back. He had a cup of coffee in the NFL and I don't think any of the current RBs will fare much better at the next level.
TE - A healthy 2015 Lingen would be a gigantic advantage, but he's been banged up and doesn't look anywhere near what he used to. Wozniak is not very good. They are on pace to put up similar stats or worse than McGarry/Lair in 2011. I wouldn't consider that a gigantic advantage.

Obviously dpodoll didn't ask AJ's mom's best friend. Otherwise it would have been obvious that group of WR's is WAY better than the current group. C'mon, how am I the first person to bring this fact up???? :)

Sorry, I know it was beat to death, but I haven't seen it in a couple years so I had to do it.

In honesty I'd take the 2011 WR's and TE's over this year's groups, this year's groups have hands of stone. I'd take Gray over Croft/Rhoda. OL, not sure either was any better than the other - both had bright spots and weaknesses (though I still wonder if the 2011 line would have been successful in Gordy Shaw's system). I'd take the current RB's over those, but I don't think it's as significant of a difference as it would appear.

Hopefully Morgan, Armstrong, or some other QB not currently on the roster can come in and have some competent QB play next year. That would hide a lot of the ills you're seeing in the program (look at Green Bay). I'm fine if Croft/Green can make the jump, I just doubt it could happen at this point.
 

Following Urban Meyer at OSU? Yes, 14-21 is HORRIBLE.

Following Tim Brewster at Minnesota? Not even close.

Not comparing it to Urban Meyer just as i would not compare to the losing mean which would be Brewster. I am saying that after 5 years you had very little to show, nothing meaningful and that PJ will do far more when he has a team of his making. I think he will eclipse Kill era by a long shot.
 

Not comparing it to Urban Meyer just as i would not compare to the losing mean which would be Brewster. I am saying that after 5 years you had very little to show, nothing meaningful and that PJ will do far more when he has a team of his making. I think he will eclipse Kill era by a long shot.
So you're on record saying that if Fleck doesn't at least win the West in his first five years he should be fired. Correct?

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Not comparing it to Urban Meyer just as i would not compare to the losing mean which would be Brewster. I am saying that after 5 years you had very little to show, nothing meaningful and that PJ will do far more when he has a team of his making. I think he will eclipse Kill era by a long shot.
That is what people thought Brewster would do after Mason. It's a great sentiment and one I'm sure every Gopher fan hopes is correct, but at this point we have no data to assert it as truth.
 


Not comparing it to Urban Meyer just as i would not compare to the losing mean which would be Brewster. I am saying that after 5 years you had very little to show, nothing meaningful and that PJ will do far more when he has a team of his making. I think he will eclipse Kill era by a long shot.

Of course Fleck will do better than Kill - he's building his program on what Kill and Claeys left behind, unlike Kill who built on what Brewster left behind. This isn't rocket science.

I love how you pretend to be some sort of expert when virtually everything you post is trite and elementary - not to mention frequently flat-out wrong.
 

Did not feel that whole second half.

We were ahead at the half 13-10, and should’ve been up more. They did take a bigger lead before we came back and made it close. Pretty close game overall IMO.


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After turnover whole second half seemed like their D stonewalled the Gophers. 1st half Gophers convert o e of those FG into touchdown, different game second half. Just like Kills game in Madison, without crappy call on Tommy Olson, that phantom penalty, that game is different outcome too.
 

Of course Fleck will do better than Kill - he's building his program on what Kill and Claeys left behind, unlike Kill who built on what Brewster left behind. This isn't rocket science.

I love how you pretend to be some sort of expert when virtually everything you post is trite and elementary - not to mention frequently flat-out wrong.

Nearly all major contributo to Kill and Claeys success graduated, moved on, or got kicked out. What Kill and Brewster left is really not that far off from each other IMO.
 

Obviously dpodoll didn't ask AJ's mom's best friend. Otherwise it would have been obvious that group of WR's is WAY better than the current group. C'mon, how am I the first person to bring this fact up???? :)

Sorry, I know it was beat to death, but I haven't seen it in a couple years so I had to do it.

In honesty I'd take the 2011 WR's and TE's over this year's groups, this year's groups have hands of stone. I'd take Gray over Croft/Rhoda. OL, not sure either was any better than the other - both had bright spots and weaknesses (though I still wonder if the 2011 line would have been successful in Gordy Shaw's system). I'd take the current RB's over those, but I don't think it's as significant of a difference as it would appear.

Hopefully Morgan, Armstrong, or some other QB not currently on the roster can come in and have some competent QB play next year. That would hide a lot of the ills you're seeing in the program (look at Green Bay). I'm fine if Croft/Green can make the jump, I just doubt it could happen at this point.

The Barker bit is funny, but unfortunately not relevant because he didn't see the field in 2011.
 



What Kill and Brewster left is really not that far off from each other IMO.

Wow, Claeys must've really been a miracle worker then! He went 9-4 with a team "not that far off" from the one that went 3-9 for Kill.
 

Wow, Claeys must've really been a miracle worker then! He went 9-4 with a team "not that far off" from the one that went 3-9 for Kill.

Claeys would have taken a step back as well this year. Maybe less because of continuity, but that maybe makes up two games. Would people be excited with Claeys going 6-7 this year? Nope, he'd likely be getting fired.
 

Yes coaching changed are tough. They are made tougher when the focus isn't on getting wins. Adding things like a different culture, a new language, raising fists on 4th down, etc. makes it tougher as well.


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Yes coaching changed are tough. They are made tougher when the focus isn't on getting wins. Adding things like a different culture, a new language, raising fists on 4th down, etc. makes it tougher as well.


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Raising fists on 4th down was started last year, so it shouldn’t be impacting them.
 



Yes coaching changed are tough. They are made tougher when the focus isn't on getting wins. Adding things like a different culture, a new language, raising fists on 4th down, etc. makes it tougher as well.


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Every coach brings their own changes to a program when they take over....every one....even the great Jerry Kill made changes when he got here. But I can't for the life of me figure out why some of you are so convinced that the coaches are not trying to win games. And the obsession some have with the fist raising on 4th down is ridiculous.

Yes Fleck has said the results this year don't matter in the grand scheme of things but that doesn't mean the team isn't trying to win games still. It is a transition year, like it is for all programs when a new coach takes over. It really is amazing how determined some of you are to hate the new staff. Seems like a lot of wasted effort since like it or not they are going to be around for the next few years at a minimum and hopefully a lot longer then that.
 

Yes Fleck has said the results this year don't matter in the grand scheme of things but that doesn't mean the team isn't trying to win games still.

But the problem is that it does indicate that he is willing to lose games for what he views is a future benefit. Maybe play a CB who is limping still and will get beat on a long TD pass to cost us a game to save a red-shirt, maybe run inside Zone over and over in a close game even when not working to show your team that is their identity, maybe a bunch of other things. You are welcome to agree with that long- term strategy - it sounds good, and may help some feel better about this year. Others may not buy it or feel it is necessary this year or maybe think it is a bad strategy all together.


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But the problem is that it does indicate that he is willing to lose games for what he views is a future benefit. Maybe play a CB who is limping still and will get beat on a long TD pass to cost us a game to save a red-shirt, maybe run inside Zone over and over in a close game even when not working to show your team that is their identity, maybe a bunch of other things. You are welcome to agree with that long- term strategy - it sounds good, and may help some feel better about this year. Others may not buy it or feel it is necessary this year or maybe think it is a bad strategy all together.


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There is no proof that any different decisions would result in different outcomes. Hindsight is 20/20.

Before the.Purdue game, nobody on this board knew the status of the CB. If fact many were hopeful of his return. We quickly found out. He also wasn't the only player on the field on the long play.

Given what we see from our qb, what makes anyone think throwing 30 times per game will be any better?

We know you don't like Fleck. You don't have to mention it multiple times per thread


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There is no proof that any different decisions would result in different outcomes. Hindsight is 20/20.

Before the.Purdue game, nobody on this board knew the status of the CB. If fact many were hopeful of his return. We quickly found out. He also wasn't the only player on the field on the long play.

Given what we see from our qb, what makes anyone think throwing 30 times per game will be any better?

We know you don't like Fleck. You don't have to mention it multiple times per thread


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Of course there is no proof it would have made a difference. No proof it wouldn't have. I would have liked to try something/anything different.

False. It was well documented that CD was slow with a limp. Also, you don't think the coaches knew from practice? Come on. You are really stretching on that one. Wow.

QB situation is bad. Again, referring to MD, try something/anything different. I didn't say pass 30 times. If you don't see what PJ was doing in that game then you need to take the blinders off.

I am convinced some on here would be OK with PJ tackling old women in the street if he said it was culture building. I like to present a more objective view of him.


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What have we learned from this thread?

Every coach at the U of M since Murray Warmath has been a failure. But Fleck will succeed, because he is PJ Fleck and he has something that no other coach has had.

OK. And when he hires the Easter Bunny as Offensive Coordinator, and Santa Claus as Defensive Coordinator, the team will win a National Championship.

This is giving a new meaning to the term "Blind Faith."

It's like being in a cult - or being an Amway salesman. (personally, I think Amway is a cult, but that's just me....)
 

I am convinced some on here would be OK with PJ tackling old women in the street if he said it was culture building. I like to present a more objective view of him.


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You are a beauty. Throw out BS hyperbole about some who disagree with you and then claim to be the paragon of objectivity. You could teach a course on how to use passive aggressiveness, but then that might cut down the number of times you pat yoursef on the back on GH. We thank you for your never-ending quest to enlighten the rest of us.
 


What have we learned from this thread?

Every coach at the U of M since Murray Warmath has been a failure. But Fleck will succeed, because he is PJ Fleck and he has something that no other coach has had.

OK. And when he hires the Easter Bunny as Offensive Coordinator, and Santa Claus as Defensive Coordinator, the team will win a National Championship.

This is giving a new meaning to the term "Blind Faith."

It's like being in a cult - or being an Amway salesman. (personally, I think Amway is a cult, but that's just me....)

If this descent into madness were to occur, the new 4th down signal.

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/S6zhClz5oNtgk" width="480" height="295" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/santa-claus-S6zhClz5oNtgk">via GIPHY</a></p>
 

What have we learned from this thread?

Every coach at the U of M since Murray Warmath has been a failure. But Fleck will succeed, because he is PJ Fleck and he has something that no other coach has had.

OK. And when he hires the Easter Bunny as Offensive Coordinator, and Santa Claus as Defensive Coordinator, the team will win a National Championship.

This is giving a new meaning to the term "Blind Faith."

It's like being in a cult - or being an Amway salesman. (personally, I think Amway is a cult, but that's just me....)

You’re a complete clown show daily on this board. People are willing to give him more then the first year to come to a conclusion on how he will do at the U. Which of course bothers you.

You decide day one you didn’t like him. Decided he would fail here while the whole time repeating your same nonsense over and over in every post.
 

You’re a complete clown show daily on this board. People are willing to give him more then the first year to come to a conclusion on how he will do at the U. Which of course bothers you.

You decide day one you didn’t like him. Decided he would fail here while the whole time repeating your same nonsense over and over in every post.

and now, a scools to english translation:

I don't agree with you. therefore, you must be wrong, because I must be right.
 


Is this post a joke? Given how one-sided your analysis is, it has to be a joke.

Let's look at your defensive line analysis for example:
Your wrote: "DeLattiboudere/Jackson/Richardson/Coughlin vs. Perry/Jacobs/Kirksey/Wilhite - slight advantage 2017".

With respect to the DE position, did you forget that Wilhite went on to be named 2nd team all-Big Ten as a senior? I'm willing to bet 100 Gopherhole dollars that neither DeLattiboudere and Coughlin will be named 2nd team all Big Ten in their careers at DE. Of course opinions mean nothing, but what's curious is who you left out. Not sure what roster you were looking at but how did you manage to omit Matt Garin and replace him with Ben Perry? We all know that Garin's career was cut short, but we didn't know that when Kill was hired. I'd take Kill's DE's over Flecks.

It gets worse when you look at DT. Perhaps you're forgetting that Anthony Jacobs signed a UDFA contract with the Vikings. I doubt Richardson or Jackson do the same, but that's only my opinion. But again, opinions aside, didn't you forget someone? Ra'Shede Hageman? Seriously, you left Ra'Shede Hageman off of Kill's roster. Who'd you rather have: Hageman/Jacobs or Jackson/Richardson? Again, I'd take Kill's guys--in a landslide.

It's the same drill at DB. Royston was named honorable mention all Big Ten in 2011, Vereen went on to be named 1st team all Big Ten in 2013, and Stoudermire was named honorable mention all Big Ten in 2012. I don't see anyone that Fleck inherited that is destined for similar honors. You also left out James Manuel and instead included Shady Salamon. Huh? Another name you left off Kill's roster? Michael Carter. Michael Carter, 247 composite of 0.9127 gets left off of Kill's squad.

I'm sure you can find 4-5 guys on the board that think Fleck's guys have a "slight advantage" but that might be it. I'd take the DB's Kill inherited, again, in a landslide.

And look at the recruiting classes each coach inherited. You do acknowledge Kirkwood and Vereen, but Kill also inherited Jimmy Gjere, 0.9072 on the 247 composite, Lamonte Edwards, 0.8813, Manuel, 0.8653, Tom Parish, 0.8608, Marquise Hill, 0.8590, Devon Wright, 0.8573, Johnathan Ragoo, 0.8559, and Tyrone Bouie, 0.8510. Do you think that Fleck would have appreciated inheriting a recruiting class that had 10 players scoring over 0.85 on the 247 composite like Kill did? I'd take that class over the class Fleck was looking to inherit, again, in a landslide.

The idea that Kill inherited the keys to the Edmund Fitzgerald, while Fleck inherited the keys to the Good Ship Lollypop is nonsense.
 

Every coach brings their own changes to a program when they take over....every one....even the great Jerry Kill made changes when he got here. But I can't for the life of me figure out why some of you are so convinced that the coaches are not trying to win games. And the obsession some have with the fist raising on 4th down is ridiculous.

Yes Fleck has said the results this year don't matter in the grand scheme of things but that doesn't mean the team isn't trying to win games still. It is a transition year, like it is for all programs when a new coach takes over. It really is amazing how determined some of you are to hate the new staff. Seems like a lot of wasted effort since like it or not they are going to be around for the next few years at a minimum and hopefully a lot longer then that.

Agree that all coaches bring their own system but some do it differently than others and for sports wins is what matters. I never said he wasn't trying to win games but he is willing to sacrifice wins for his process and culture. I won't pretend to know it all but If putting butts in the seats and bringing in higher rated recruits is going to happen focusing on wins might need to be a higher priority.

Not hating on Fleck. I actually like him and want him here for a long time. I just find some of his schtick annoying and tiresome and it makes him look a little like a huckster but I do think if we give him enough time he will be extremely successful here. I think he actually has an infectious personality and brings a lot of energy which is good and will help us bring better players in and when the wins start piling up more people will want to attend.


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Wow! The Gophers just dominated and dropped 54 on a 9-4 team!
 

Is this post a joke? Given how one-sided your analysis is, it has to be a joke.

Let's look at your defensive line analysis for example:
Your wrote: "DeLattiboudere/Jackson/Richardson/Coughlin vs. Perry/Jacobs/Kirksey/Wilhite - slight advantage 2017".

With respect to the DE position, did you forget that Wilhite went on to be named 2nd team all-Big Ten as a senior? I'm willing to bet 100 Gopherhole dollars that neither DeLattiboudere and Coughlin will be named 2nd team all Big Ten in their careers at DE. Of course opinions mean nothing, but what's curious is who you left out. Not sure what roster you were looking at but how did you manage to omit Matt Garin and replace him with Ben Perry? We all know that Garin's career was cut short, but we didn't know that when Kill was hired. I'd take Kill's DE's over Flecks.

It gets worse when you look at DT. Perhaps you're forgetting that Anthony Jacobs signed a UDFA contract with the Vikings. I doubt Richardson or Jackson do the same, but that's only my opinion. But again, opinions aside, didn't you forget someone? Ra'Shede Hageman? Seriously, you left Ra'Shede Hageman off of Kill's roster. Who'd you rather have: Hageman/Jacobs or Jackson/Richardson? Again, I'd take Kill's guys--in a landslide.

It's the same drill at DB. Royston was named honorable mention all Big Ten in 2011, Vereen went on to be named 1st team all Big Ten in 2013, and Stoudermire was named honorable mention all Big Ten in 2012. I don't see anyone that Fleck inherited that is destined for similar honors. You also left out James Manuel and instead included Shady Salamon. Huh? Another name you left off Kill's roster? Michael Carter. Michael Carter, 247 composite of 0.9127 gets left off of Kill's squad.

I'm sure you can find 4-5 guys on the board that think Fleck's guys have a "slight advantage" but that might be it. I'd take the DB's Kill inherited, again, in a landslide.

And look at the recruiting classes each coach inherited. You do acknowledge Kirkwood and Vereen, but Kill also inherited Jimmy Gjere, 0.9072 on the 247 composite, Lamonte Edwards, 0.8813, Manuel, 0.8653, Tom Parish, 0.8608, Marquise Hill, 0.8590, Devon Wright, 0.8573, Johnathan Ragoo, 0.8559, and Tyrone Bouie, 0.8510. Do you think that Fleck would have appreciated inheriting a recruiting class that had 10 players scoring over 0.85 on the 247 composite like Kill did? I'd take that class over the class Fleck was looking to inherit, again, in a landslide.

The idea that Kill inherited the keys to the Edmund Fitzgerald, while Fleck inherited the keys to the Good Ship Lollypop is nonsense.

What's the point of talking about what they would do in 2012 or 2013? The whole point is analyzing the 2011 roster versus the 2017 roster - what they would become in later seasons is irrelevant. The 2011 team lost 58-0 at Michigan, in a game that wasn't that close (against another first-year coach, nonetheless) while the 2017 lost 33-10 against one of the best coaches in college football. This squad just put up 54 against Nebraska and won by 33 points. The whole argument is absurd - the talent levels aren't even close.
 

What's the point of talking about what they would do in 2012 or 2013? The whole point is analyzing the 2011 roster versus the 2017 roster - what they would become in later seasons is irrelevant. The 2011 team lost 58-0 at Michigan, in a game that wasn't that close (against another first-year coach, nonetheless) while the 2017 lost 33-10 against one of the best coaches in college football. This squad just put up 54 against Nebraska and won by 33 points. The whole argument is absurd - the talent levels aren't even close.

About as absurd as blasting Fleck for ruining a "9-4" team?
 

Competition was a lot better than just posting the won loss record. There have been articles about his involvement and spurring on the "Nothing Short of Greatness" and the athletes village. There were also plenty of articles about how low the APR was under Brewster and the Gopher football program was on academic probation and was 1 year away from losing scholarships. I was season ticket holder under, Brewster and Kill, you can post the win loss records all you want, we were never close to beating either Michigan or Nebraska under coach Brewster, and only competitive against the Badgers in 1 half of one game his whole tenure.
Being competitive against everyone, those things happened under Kill, and he beat Iowa twice something Brewster never did. We were a half away in 2015 in Madison from going to the Big 10 title game. These things happened, he Kill was a good football coach and program builder. There is more to college football than the Win lost record, even if you post the record. Kill graduated a lot of players, this matters.

This has nothing to do with Claeys or even the current coaching staff under Fleck, Kill did more than what the win loss record shows, easy to judge by just posting the win loss record or conference record. The Gophers were at rock bottom of the Big 10 conference, when Kill got to Minnesota, and we were turned down by at least 5 other coaches, including one Michigan fired.

We owe Coach Kill a debt of gratitude. He was a positive change agent that will help set up the success of the coaches after him. The program is in a better place because of him.
 




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