Coaching changes are tough.

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balds

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Limited practices, turnover (players and staff) and new systems/terminology usually make for a tough season. Injuries/suspensions usually add fuel to this fire. Our coaches usually have their capitulation (rock bottom) after visits to Ann Arbor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5WTCJOC2To&t=1s
 

Also some people like the previous coach etc., and as a result you've got boosters against boosters, posters against posters, players against players and it goes on and on.
 

#2Gopher said:
Also some people like the previous coach etc., and as a result you've got boosters against boosters, posters against posters, players against players and it goes on and on.
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True. 100% of people disliked Brewster, so Kill could do no wrong.
 

balds said:
True. 100% of people disliked Brewster, so Kill could do no wrong.
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What Kill accomplished here was incredible. I love how people now try to act like he didn't inherit an absolute train wreck and compare it to what PJ inherited. How soon we forget.


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Spoofin said:
What Kill accomplished here was incredible. I love how people now try to act like he didn't inherit an absolute train wreck and compare it to what PJ inherited. How soon we forget.


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Click to expand...

What Kill did was not incredible, had he won a division championship that would have been incredible. He inherited a train wreck and he brought it back to respectable, the exact same thing that Mason did when he inherited the train wreck from Wacker and brought the team back to competitive. Fleck did not inherit a mess to the level that Kill and Mason did but he did inherit a roster with massive holes in it at some of the most important positions on the field.
 


MNVCGUY said:
What Kill did was not incredible, had he won a division championship that would have been incredible. He inherited a train wreck and he brought it back to respectable, the exact same thing that Mason did when he inherited the train wreck from Wacker and brought the team back to competitive. Fleck did not inherit a mess to the level that Kill and Mason did but he did inherit a roster with massive holes in it at some of the most important positions on the field.
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Yup
 

Spoofin said:
What Kill accomplished here was incredible. I love how people now try to act like he didn't inherit an absolute train wreck and compare it to what PJ inherited. How soon we forget.


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As Inigo Montoya said: "I do not think that word means what you think it means."
 

Urbandale said:
As Inigo Montoya said: "I do not think that word means what you think it means."
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I thought it was incredible. This season sucks, but I hope our future is incredibler.


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Kill was,breath of fresh air after Brewster

MNVCGUY said:
What Kill did was not incredible, had he won a division championship that would have been incredible. He inherited a train wreck and he brought it back to respectable, the exact same thing that Mason did when he inherited the train wreck from Wacker and brought the team back to competitive. Fleck did not inherit a mess to the level that Kill and Mason did but he did inherit a roster with massive holes in it at some of the most important positions on the field.
Click to expand...

Without Kill, this Gopher program would have returned to Wacker and Salem levels of losing like it did under Brewster, APR nearly was at losi g scholarships from NCAA sanctions. Without him we would not have the Athletes village vision or reality. He didn't win a championship, but without the health problems he had us on a path to a division title. He rebuilt the foundation, then had to retire. I wish he coach Kill could have had a chance to take Gopheds to Indianapolis. We owe him a debt of gratitude. He was a damn good football coach. We were lucky as he was the coach we needed at that time to right the ship in 2011.
 



Kill did the following. Facts that can be found.


Total games: 77
W: 40 L: 37

Record vs Top 25 ranked opponents: 2-19
Record vs Big Ten: 20-29
Record vs Power 5 (non-Big Ten): 3-6
Record vs Non-P5: 15-1
Record vs FCS: 2-1

List of Big Ten Teams they had winning record against:
Illinois 4-1
Purdue 4-1

Record in original 3 (IA, WI, MI) trophy games 3-14

Total number of weeks we were ranked in the Top 25 during the 6 year span: 2
 

Face The Facts said:
Kill did the following. Facts that can be found.


Total games: 77
W: 40 L: 37

Record vs Top 25 ranked opponents: 2-19
Record vs Big Ten: 20-29
Record vs Power 5 (non-Big Ten): 3-6
Record vs Non-P5: 15-1
Record vs FCS: 2-1

List of Big Ten Teams they had winning record against:
Illinois 4-1
Purdue 4-1

Record in original 3 (IA, WI, MI) trophy games 3-14

Total number of weeks we were ranked in the Top 25 during the 6 year span: 2
Click to expand...

That’s incredible. Statue worthy.


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Awesome way he went about his values but as for success on the field i give he and his staff a very low c-
 

Face The Facts said:
Kill did the following. Facts that can be found.


Total games: 77
W: 40 L: 37

Record vs Top 25 ranked opponents: 2-19
Record vs Big Ten: 20-29
Record vs Power 5 (non-Big Ten): 3-6
Record vs Non-P5: 15-1
Record vs FCS: 2-1

List of Big Ten Teams they had winning record against:
Illinois 4-1
Purdue 4-1

Record in original 3 (IA, WI, MI) trophy games 3-14

Total number of weeks we were ranked in the Top 25 during the 6 year span: 2
Click to expand...

Fact that can't be found: Kill was 29-29 overall at Minnesota (26-20 after rough first year). He coached 58 games, not 77. His final year, 2015, he was 4-3, resigning after the Nebraska game. His Big 10 record was 14-21. His lifetime head coaching record was 152-99.
 



Did you go to the games during those years?

Face The Facts said:
Kill did the following. Facts that can be found.


Total games: 77
W: 40 L: 37

Record vs Top 25 ranked opponents: 2-19
Record vs Big Ten: 20-29
Record vs Power 5 (non-Big Ten): 3-6
Record vs Non-P5: 15-1
Record vs FCS: 2-1

List of Big Ten Teams they had winning record against:
Illinois 4-1
Purdue 4-1

Record in original 3 (IA, WI, MI) trophy games 3-14

Total number of weeks we were ranked in the Top 25 during the 6 year span: 2
Click to expand...

Competition was a lot better than just posting the won loss record. There have been articles about his involvement and spurring on the "Nothing Short of Greatness" and the athletes village. There were also plenty of articles about how low the APR was under Brewster and the Gopher football program was on academic probation and was 1 year away from losing scholarships. I was season ticket holder under, Brewster and Kill, you can post the win loss records all you want, we were never close to beating either Michigan or Nebraska under coach Brewster, and only competitive against the Badgers in 1 half of one game his whole tenure.
Being competitive against everyone, those things happened under Kill, and he beat Iowa twice something Brewster never did. We were a half away in 2015 in Madison from going to the Big 10 title game. These things happened, he Kill was a good football coach and program builder. There is more to college football than the Win lost record, even if you post the record. Kill graduated a lot of players, this matters.

This has nothing to do with Claeys or even the current coaching staff under Fleck, Kill did more than what the win loss record shows, easy to judge by just posting the win loss record or conference record. The Gophers were at rock bottom of the Big 10 conference, when Kill got to Minnesota, and we were turned down by at least 5 other coaches, including one Michigan fired.
 

scools12 said:
That’s incredible. Statue worthy.


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I was surprised when pulling it together.
It felt far more substantial than that.
But padding a schedule with 4 non-conference wins was a big difference compared to having 3 now.

11 of the 20 Big Ten wins were against Purdue, NW, and Illinois.
 

Great Plains Gopher said:
Fact that can't be found: Kill was 29-29 overall at Minnesota (26-20 after rough first year). He coached 58 games, not 77. His final year, 2015, he was 4-3, resigning after the Nebraska game. His Big 10 record was 14-21. His lifetime head coaching record was 152-99.
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First years don't count?
 

gopherdudepart2 said:
Competition was a lot better than just posting the won loss record. There have been articles about his involvement and spurring on the "Nothing Short of Greatness" and the athletes village. There were also plenty of articles about how low the APR was under Brewster and the Gopher football program was on academic probation and was 1 year away from losing scholarships. I was season ticket holder under, Brewster and Kill, you can post the win loss records all you want, we were never close to beating either Michigan or Nebraska under coach Brewster, and only competitive against the Badgers in 1 half of one game his whole tenure.
Being competitive against everyone, those things happened under Kill, and he beat Iowa twice something Brewster never did. We were a half away in 2015 in Madison from going to the Big 10 title game. These things happened, he Kill was a good football coach and program builder. There is more to college football than the Win lost record, even if you post the record. Kill graduated a lot of players, this matters.

This has nothing to do with Claeys or even the current coaching staff under Fleck, Kill did more than what the win loss record shows, easy to judge by just posting the win loss record or conference record. The Gophers were at rock bottom of the Big 10 conference, when Kill got to Minnesota, and we were turned down by at least 5 other coaches, including one Michigan fired.
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Just a study on Brewster and Kill vs Wisconsin should give you some perspective.

Facts:
In our 13 year stretch of losses against Wisconsin, Brewster coached the two closest. (two 3-point losses).

Before Kill and Claeys we actually competed with WI when we lost to them. (2008 and 2009 both 3 point losses, and in Brewster's first year they lost by 7).
2010 we lost by 18 in Brewster's last year.

Since then, never within single digits. (losses by 29,25,13,10,10,14)
It took Kill until his third year (a loss by 13), just to top Brewster's worst game against Wisconsin (a loss by 18).

Jeff Horton in 5 games (with Brewsters team) got 50% as many wins vs ranked teams (1) as Kill did in 77 games (2).
 


This thread is comical. As I said, how soon we forget. Downplay what Kill did here all you want. Nice to know he will be judged on W/L alone in this context - yet PJ gets a pass for tearing this year's team down because "culture". You truly can't make it up.

What Kill inherited was 10-times worse. NYD Bowl, APR only behind jNW, no off-field embarrassments, playing for division titles, etc. I didn't ask for a statue, but pretty incredible for what he was given.


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MNVCGUY said:
What Kill did was not incredible, had he won a division championship that would have been incredible. He inherited a train wreck and he brought it back to respectable, the exact same thing that Mason did when he inherited the train wreck from Wacker and brought the team back to competitive. Fleck did not inherit a mess to the level that Kill and Mason did but he did inherit a roster with massive holes in it at some of the most important positions on the field.
Click to expand...

Very true. Compare the roster in 2011 to this year’s active roster and I don’t know that this year’s team is any more talented. More disciplined? Yes. Better in the classroom? Yes.
 

Spoofin said:
What Kill accomplished here was incredible. I love how people now try to act like he didn't inherit an absolute train wreck and compare it to what PJ inherited. How soon we forget.


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Click to expand...

No big deal for Kill.

Mt McKinley for PJ.

Laughable.
 

gopherdudepart2 said:
Without Kill, this Gopher program would have returned to Wacker and Salem levels of losing like it did under Brewster, APR nearly was at losi g scholarships from NCAA sanctions. Without him we would not have the Athletes village vision or reality. He didn't win a championship, but without the health problems he had us on a path to a division title. He rebuilt the foundation, then had to retire. I wish he coach Kill could have had a chance to take Gopheds to Indianapolis. We owe him a debt of gratitude. He was a damn good football coach. We were lucky as he was the coach we needed at that time to right the ship in 2011.
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Yup.

Easy to forget for some flecksters.
 

The "he inherited a 9-4 team" angle is vastly overplayed. You simply can't draw a straight line between seasons like that. How many Power 5 teams have to beg a walk on QB to come back for his 5th year to compete with a guy who had zero other power 5 offers and has zero career starts? Not to mention a Sun Belt quality OL (with no depth), a secondary so depleted we have a walk on S starting at CB, etc. All while learning/playing in a new system.

I really liked Kill, but just like Fleck, he needed time. I recall the same chorus of "this MAC coach is in way over his head" when Kill was struggling early as well.

I also think the "year zero" thing is overplayed. Yes, Fleck could've (should've ) not said it, but in substance he's correct. In August of 2018, 2019, 2020, etc., are we going to be gnashing our teeth about if we went 4-8 this year and not 7-5 and playing in some crap bowl game?
 

Spoofin said:
This thread is comical. As I said, how soon we forget. Downplay what Kill did here all you want. Nice to know he will be judged on W/L alone in this context - yet PJ gets a pass for tearing this year's team down because "culture". You truly can't make it up.

What Kill inherited was 10-times worse. NYD Bowl, APR only behind jNW, no off-field embarrassments, playing for division titles, etc. I didn't ask for a statue, but pretty incredible for what he was given.


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Click to expand...

So in your opinion that whole sexual assault thing was all on Claeys?

What Kill inherited roster wise is very similar to what Fleck inherited. Some decent players but some holes as well, including at QB (2011 had better options than 2017 though). Kill also inherited a team that had been to bowl games in 2 of the previous 3 seasons. What Mason did here was incredible, he took a program that was a complete joke and made it respectable again. Kill did a great job of undoing the things Brewster had done and getting the team back on a solid footing but he also seemed to hit a wall in terms of where he could really take things.

Jerry Kill was/is a good football coach but his accomplishments here are being way oversold by many who act like he had us on the cusp of greatness. He had us out of the cellar and in the middle of the pack, he deserves respect for that but he has been elevated to god like status by a lot of posters here and his accomplishments have been way overblown.

On the flip side there are many making this season out to be a complete dumpster fire. 3 of our 5 loses have come to teams that are currently ranked in the top 25 - MSU 13, Michigan 21, Iowa 25. The other two are disappointing because they are to teams we have been beating the last few years in Purdue and Maryland but I am not sold that given our current roster holes that Claeys would have fared any better against those two teams. In fact there is a very real possibility that with Claeys at the helm we would have the exact same record we do right now.

The funny part in all this is that many of those who pine for the good old days of Jerry Kill act like it was the school that got rid of him. He "retired" for health reasons, he left the team, the team didn't get rid of him.

Fleck talks a lot and doesn't pretend to have no ego the way Kill did, in a place like Minnesota that will rub a lot of fans the wrong way. But the way some have given up on him already is kind of shocking, maybe see what happens over the next year or so as he actually gets his players in systems in place before assuming a guy who had more success in the MAC then the regime he replaced can't get it done.
 

MNVCGUY said:
So in your opinion that whole sexual assault thing was all on Claeys?
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Nope, but it happened over a year after Kill left so my point stands.


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MNVCGUY said:
What Kill did was not incredible, had he won a division championship that would have been incredible. He inherited a train wreck and he brought it back to respectable, the exact same thing that Mason did when he inherited the train wreck from Wacker and brought the team back to competitive. Fleck did not inherit a mess to the level that Kill and Mason did but he did inherit a roster with massive holes in it at some of the most important positions on the field.
Click to expand...

+1
 


MNVCGUY said:
So in your opinion that whole sexual assault thing was all on Claeys?

What Kill inherited roster wise is very similar to what Fleck inherited. Some decent players but some holes as well, including at QB (2011 had better options than 2017 though). Kill also inherited a team that had been to bowl games in 2 of the previous 3 seasons. What Mason did here was incredible, he took a program that was a complete joke and made it respectable again. Kill did a great job of undoing the things Brewster had done and getting the team back on a solid footing but he also seemed to hit a wall in terms of where he could really take things.

Jerry Kill was/is a good football coach but his accomplishments here are being way oversold by many who act like he had us on the cusp of greatness. He had us out of the cellar and in the middle of the pack, he deserves respect for that but he has been elevated to god like status by a lot of posters here and his accomplishments have been way overblown.

On the flip side there are many making this season out to be a complete dumpster fire. 3 of our 5 loses have come to teams that are currently ranked in the top 25 - MSU 13, Michigan 21, Iowa 25. The other two are disappointing because they are to teams we have been beating the last few years in Purdue and Maryland but I am not sold that given our current roster holes that Claeys would have fared any better against those two teams. In fact there is a very real possibility that with Claeys at the helm we would have the exact same record we do right now.

The funny part in all this is that many of those who pine for the good old days of Jerry Kill act like it was the school that got rid of him. He "retired" for health reasons, he left the team, the team didn't get rid of him.

Fleck talks a lot and doesn't pretend to have no ego the way Kill did, in a place like Minnesota that will rub a lot of fans the wrong way. But the way some have given up on him already is kind of shocking, maybe see what happens over the next year or so as he actually gets his players in systems in place before assuming a guy who had more success in the MAC then the regime he replaced can't get it done.
Click to expand...

People refuse to actually compare talent on both rosters. Kill pats himself on the back enough about his time here, he doesn't need Gopher fans to over exaggerate what he did here.
 

Face The Facts said:
I was surprised when pulling it together.
It felt far more substantial than that.
But padding a schedule with 4 non-conference wins was a big difference compared to having 3 now.

11 of the 20 Big Ten wins were against Purdue, NW, and Illinois.
Click to expand...

3 of those 5 "padded Non-Conference" slates included games against # 25 USC, #2 TCU and a Syracuse team that ended-up going 8-5, beating WV in a bowl game in the process. Probably why you thought it was "more substantial" in the first place.

Taking out non-conference "padded games" out of the schedule this season would leave the Gophers at 1 win going into their 10th game of the season. Nobody wants that.

By the looks things you appear to have been in quite a frenzy last night making this kind of thing more defensible.

I've already had a little fun with somebody's pompous post this morning. Maybe you can smile at some rather dubious posts too.

Try leaving in as many disclaimers as you do when you deign to mildly criticize the present coaching staff. Maybe that would help.
 

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